No! I will not Stop it! ...

[RainDog]

7. fwiw

Me:

One way people have demonstrated this is when they have used the same resume with different names. Names that were identified with black culture on resumes resulted in a more negative view of the applicant than when that same resume was presented with one identified with white culture.

This same idea was demonstrated in blind orchestra auditions regarding male privilege. When musicians auditioned for positions in orchestras behind curtains, so that their genders were unknown, females gained more seats on an orchestra. When auditioning where gender was apparent, more females are judged as less talented musicians than males.

He:
Okay, but that's not actual privilege. If anything, it's the exact OPPOSITE of privilege. To be truthful, most people aren't going to understand an argument that is supposedly the opposite of how it reads. And although it seems that you don't mean it in the *literal* sense, here's the (huge!) problem; it seems rather clear by now that a lot, maybe even most, of your fellow "white privilege" proponents *do* take it literally. Believe me, I've seen this problem unfold more times than I can possibly count them all.

Maybe it seems I'm being a little bit of a hard-ass to people sometimes and I do apologize for that. But I can assure you that I have perfectly reasonable and altruistic reasons for pointing out what I have.
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Me: I said American society is racist. If I wanted to, I could back it up in numerous ways, but the links here do that anyway, without going into it any further.

He:
I never said or implied American society as a whole was racist(WTF?); and it actually isn't by and large. Although that doesn't mean that racism isn't still a problem, because it is.

...So obviously, it's more complex than just "X society is Y(racist/sexist/etc.), therefore, Z". As a student of history, I'd understood this on at least a basic level even when I subscribed to "white privilege" theory once upon a time. But now that I have moved on, I have been able to gain an an even significantly greater, (and much more nuanced, for that matter) understanding.

Me:

American society is racist...anyone who disputes this has little to no knowledge of past or current history, and maybe even a lack of understanding about the very term "racist society."

but please tell me how your study of history has indicated that America is not a racist society.

fwiw - to note an overarching political and social reality is not to say every single person within a society is racist, or that people do not try to address the racism that is part of the cultural atmosphere within a society in which someone lives, and which they breathe in, without thought, but simply b/c it is all around them, like the air...if the majority of history and law and the application of the law demonstrates racism that repeats itself with variations generation after generation - that's a racist society...and I don't say that as an accusation toward any person - just as an acknowledgement of culturally available facts that demonstrate bias against, in this case, African Americans in the United States.

He:
I have plenty of understanding, thank you.

...Modern America isn't a racist society by and large; that's actually pretty obvious just by looking around. By the same token, it is also true, however, that social disparities do remain a problem, and not just racism, but sexism and even basic prejudices(culture, economic status, etc.) as well.

and I don't say that as an accusation toward any person

I believe you, but TBH, it does seem clear that you have too much of a black-and-white view on things. And yes, standards do change. Standards have gotten higher over time. But in all honesty, the reality is far more complex than just whether or not a society is racist or not racist(besides, where does one draw the line, anyway?). You may have a few people who are racist, and some who are not; but you will also have many who could be persuaded one way or the other; this has always been true, at least to varying extents, for every society, West or East.

Me:

where are your studies that indicate modern American society is not racist by and large?

I have never seen a study that demonstrates this. However, to make the statement, I would assume you have evidence to back you up.

Otherwise, you're just making a statement with no evidence to support your claim.

He:
I don't need any studies, btw.

Of course, if you have any studies of your own, I'd like to see them, so I may gain a better understanding of where your opinion is coming from, even if none of them are at all likely to disprove my points(pretty much every legitimate study out there would actually back me up, btw).

Because the truth is, my opinion is based on factual observations & real world experience. I don't claim to be omniscient or anything (I know I'm not!) but I do know that what I have said is factual overall; that much is undeniable.

Me: (long post so I'll just link, but multiple sources, both academic and popular media, across issues) http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4837583

He:
first a quote from me:

"that's just a quick look to demonstrate that racism is currently an issue in American society".....

He: Okay, and I never actually argued against that, btw. However, though, none of these links prove any *literal* "white privilege", however, nor do they prove that society as a whole is racist, even if they do prove, by the same token that social disparities do still exist.

Me:

I am going to assume you are doing a form of trolling, perhaps, and not that you lack the ability to understand the concepts you claim don't exist. Maybe your problem is that you simply don't understand what you're talking about.

Anyone who reads this back-and-forth, however, who is not being intentionally obtuse will understand quite clearly that racial discrimination faced by one group and not another is the very definition of white privilege at its worst.

He:
(after I posted a link to explain the Dunning-Krueger effect - that notes people who don't know about an issue assume they know about an issue more than they do - and said I usually put ppl like him on ignore when they are this obtuse.)

Your choice, I suppose.

(BTW, since you went there, that study actually seems to apply quite well to your end of the argument. Because you've failed to provide any evidence of literal white privilege. Period.)

My editorial aside: (you have to read the link in this post to realize how absurd this claim really is.)

Me:

for old time's sake, Joe

White privilege is a set of advantages and/or immunities that white people benefit from on a daily basis beyond those common to all others. White privilege can exist without white people's conscious knowledge of its presence and it helps to maintain the racial hierarchy in this country.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/org/wsar/intro.htm

examples here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4837583

He:
And Dr. Avakian has every right to her viewpoint, as you and I do.

But again, I'm more objective than some others. But again, look at the overall results; outside the "choir" it hasn't done well in terms of educating the general public. And we as progressives CAN do better. We have to if we want to win the fight for America's soul, as it were.

Me: Won't repost where I talk about my personal choice not to discuss things in terms of white privilege, but do not disagree with the term as it is understood by everyone who has done any actual work concerning the subject to which it refers...but it's there.

Incredulous person asks: U4ikLefty (3,184 posts)
148. How old are you?

He:
23. But I'm kinda smart beyond my years.....

I don't mean to come across as a total know-it-all, though; TBH, my analysis is based on years of observations, studying of history, and even personal experience(you're talking to a former "white privilege" adherent, by the way). I don't claim to be perfect, and frankly, I'm really not. But I do try to be as objective as possible, and what my observations are telling me is that "white privilege" sadly hasn't done all that well as a teaching tool to describe very real socioeconomic inequities faced by minorities, for the general public at large. That isn't something I can just ignore, even if some others here do seem to be genuinely unaware of the problem.

Me: And that is when I decided I was dealing with someone not entirely on the up and up...AND that is why I choose not to do this sort of thing here with people who are either faking a lack of comprehension in order to troll by pretending ignorance - or else they are that ignorant, so what value is there trying to make a point to such a person in either case.

They take up too much space in your head and too much time in your life, once you see what they're doing. fwiw.

YMMV.