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In reply to the discussion: Why Elliot Rodger’s misogyny matters [View all]Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)1. See also this:
As soon as women began to speak about the massacre, a curious thing happened. Men all over the world - not all men, but enough men - began to push back, to demand that we qualify our anger and mitigate our fear. Not all men are violent misogynists.
Well, there have always been good men. Actually, I firmly believe that today there are more tolerant, humane men who recognise and celebrate the equality of the sexes than there have ever been before. Today, what I hear from many men and boys who talk to me about gender justice - decent, humane men and boys of the kind the twenty-teens are also, blessedly, producing in great numbers - is fear and bewilderment. Who are these people? Where do they live? And the unspoken fear: do I know them? Might I have met some of them, drunk with them? If the wind had changed when I was growing, if I had read different books and had different friends, might it have been me? If any man is capable of this, is every man capable of it?
Well, those are the correct questions to ask. What I hear more often, however, is not all men. I hear that age-old horror of womens anger drowning out everything else. Not all men are like this. Dont look at us. Dont shout at us. Please, dont ask us to stand up and be counted.
One thing Ive found, when talking to people involved in the savage end of the "Mens Rights" community, the Pickup Artist scene, or both, is that to a chap they are keen that I understand the difference between their grouplet and the next - those guys over there hate women, those guys over there have a broken worldview, were the reasonable ones. And before the charges of book-burning and censorship begin: interpretation does change everything. There are certainly men out there who engage with the ideas of "Pickup Artistry" without absorbing the contemptuous misogyny at its core, much less pursuing it to its conclusion. One of my best relationships, in fact, was with a young man who swore by The Game as a handbook for shy boys who wanted to be able to talk to girls at parties, whilst mocking the sexism at its core.
So no, its not all men. But then it never was.
But if you think for one second, for one solitary second, that demanding tolerance for men as a group, that dismissing the reality of violence against women because not all men kill, not all men rape, if you think thats more important than demanding justice for those who have been brutalised and murdered by those not all men, then you are part of the problem. You may not have pulled the trigger. You may not have raised your hand to a woman in your life. But you are part of the problem.
http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/05/lets-call-isla-vista-killings-what-they-were-misogynist-extremism
Well, there have always been good men. Actually, I firmly believe that today there are more tolerant, humane men who recognise and celebrate the equality of the sexes than there have ever been before. Today, what I hear from many men and boys who talk to me about gender justice - decent, humane men and boys of the kind the twenty-teens are also, blessedly, producing in great numbers - is fear and bewilderment. Who are these people? Where do they live? And the unspoken fear: do I know them? Might I have met some of them, drunk with them? If the wind had changed when I was growing, if I had read different books and had different friends, might it have been me? If any man is capable of this, is every man capable of it?
Well, those are the correct questions to ask. What I hear more often, however, is not all men. I hear that age-old horror of womens anger drowning out everything else. Not all men are like this. Dont look at us. Dont shout at us. Please, dont ask us to stand up and be counted.
One thing Ive found, when talking to people involved in the savage end of the "Mens Rights" community, the Pickup Artist scene, or both, is that to a chap they are keen that I understand the difference between their grouplet and the next - those guys over there hate women, those guys over there have a broken worldview, were the reasonable ones. And before the charges of book-burning and censorship begin: interpretation does change everything. There are certainly men out there who engage with the ideas of "Pickup Artistry" without absorbing the contemptuous misogyny at its core, much less pursuing it to its conclusion. One of my best relationships, in fact, was with a young man who swore by The Game as a handbook for shy boys who wanted to be able to talk to girls at parties, whilst mocking the sexism at its core.
So no, its not all men. But then it never was.
But if you think for one second, for one solitary second, that demanding tolerance for men as a group, that dismissing the reality of violence against women because not all men kill, not all men rape, if you think thats more important than demanding justice for those who have been brutalised and murdered by those not all men, then you are part of the problem. You may not have pulled the trigger. You may not have raised your hand to a woman in your life. But you are part of the problem.
http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/05/lets-call-isla-vista-killings-what-they-were-misogynist-extremism
Edited to add excerpt.
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this. this is what my men, boys, that have listened to me for years... this... this is what they
seabeyond
May 2014
#5
i do not have it in me to read this tonight. and i need to read it. it is all so much more lefty.
seabeyond
May 2014
#3
you are wrong. you have been wrong for a while and many people have taken the time to explain why
seabeyond
May 2014
#6
except we listen to a mans words of hate, toward women, and you are in thread after thread to
seabeyond
May 2014
#10
"you are in thread after thread blaming all the ills of the world on men" wrong. tired, empty
seabeyond
May 2014
#14
talking about violence toward women is man hating and discussing this specific situation is blaming
seabeyond
May 2014
#29
I bet these guys rail about how women refuse to take responsibility too.
Spitfire of ATJ
May 2014
#15
or how women use it as their own benghazi or it proves how they really hate all men,
seabeyond
May 2014
#18
In talking to other women it's becoming clear that we have all known a guy like this.
LeftyMom
May 2014
#25
Mine whacked me on the back so hard, my face hit his gearshift in the car.
Starry Messenger
May 2014
#39
Mine was a friend of my ex boyfriend. When the ex-b and I broke up I guess he thought he was due?
LeftyMom
May 2014
#41
Go read the articles upthread, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
LeftyMom
May 2014
#34
But you know, there was that one lady like 50 years ago, who was mentally ill, and probably
nomorenomore08
May 2014
#47
I'm not really one to quote the Bible, but I do recall one verse about swallowing camels and
nomorenomore08
May 2014
#53
Problem is, the "Men's Rights" movement is largely built on fear and resentment of an entire gender.
nomorenomore08
May 2014
#46
These are all massive, deep-seated cultural issues (racism, homophobia, misogyny).
nomorenomore08
May 2014
#49
"White knight"/"mangina" = "ni**er lover." It's the same damn thing. n/t
nomorenomore08
May 2014
#59
Thing is, his "rants" weren't too far removed from a lot of comments you see online.
nomorenomore08
May 2014
#58