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H2O Man

(73,537 posts)
Thu May 29, 2014, 10:40 AM May 2014

Men [View all]

There are certain topics that never seem to go well on DU. The reality of sexist influences in our culture is one of them. Indeed, the ugliness of the 2008 presidential primaries pales in comparison -- at least to the extent that such debates did not include attributing Senator Obama’s victory over Senator Clinton in a male vs. female context.

The recent tragic mass-murder would seem to provide common ground. The killer was a freak. His primary target for his hatred was women. In reading the shit head’s manifesto, the rage that he aimed towards women is the most outstanding feature. Without that hatred towards all women, his rant would simply be a pathetic example of self-pity. In my opinion, but for that hatred of women, it seems unlikely he would have ever killed anyone.

That he had extremely little contact with girls while growing up, and almost none with women as he reached adulthood, did not keep him from defining females into a “one size fits all” group: the enemy. In particular, his perverse and inadequate ideas about sex made him dangerous to women -- for he convinced himself that women owed him sexual gratification. Thus, he was exactly the type of creep who, had he ever dated, would be at high risk to react violently if a woman told him “no.”

The fact that he had some connection to a “men’s rights” group has been mentioned as evidence that he hated women. Indeed, considering that he was never involved in a relation with a women -- except his mother and step-mother -- raises the obvious question: what “right” did he believe he was being denied? One that never existed. He wanted sex. And he wanted to be seen, on the beach or in a college classroom, holding hands with a beautiful woman. So yes, his hatred of women was his sole reason for relating to any men’s right group.

Yet, this in no way provides proof positive that men’s rights groups are bad. The fact that we are a patriarchal society, where maleness provides many advantages, does not mean that all men’s groups are focused on denying women equal rights. Surely, many such groups are not seeking equality, just as some of the members are flaming assholes. However, men do not have a monopoly on being scoundrels, and the number one focus of men’s rights groups is the area in our society where women, as a group, have long held an unfair advantage.

I live in New York, and hence what I have to say here applies to this state. However, it has been the general case in other states, as well. In the context of Family Court, where issues such as separation, child custody, divorce, support, and dividing assets, fathers have not found a level playing field. I’m friends with a number of the lawyers in my region (and a few judges), both male and female. They all say that women have had an advantage in this context.

Adults who are involved in divorces, especially where children are involved, do funny things. That includes men and women. The process sometimes involves two adults who are able to objectively put the well-being of their children first. But such cases do not end up being fought bitterly in court. Even if one parent is capable of putting their children’s needs first, it can end up in ugly court hearings, which tend to continue until the youngest child reaches maturity. And that still leaves many, many cases where both parents, to some degree, view the court as a competition, in which one side “wins” the children, property, income, and other resources.

The main focus that I had was my two little boys, ages three and six. In court, I got custody, and their mother got visitation. However, she also got the house, two of three automobiles, and support -- even though her income was more than mine. I told my attorney that I did not think this was fair. He said it wasn’t fair, but that I had gotten what was most important to me.

After I moved into an apartment, I found that two other guys living there had similar stories -- although neither had custody of their children. At first, we discussed this informally. Soon, we all began inviting other men to our discussions. Thus began a men’s rights group.

It is important to note that it wasn’t simply an organized meeting to trash women. To be fair, there were times when that took place, per an individual woman. But the primary focus was on father’s rights, how to navigate the family court system, and the responsibilities of fatherhood.

New York had changed some of the rules in family court, to make it fairer for men who wanted to be active participants in their children’s lives, back in the early 1970s. I was aware of this, because Governor Rockefeller had pushed the issue, largely at the request of the man who headed his security detail -- one of my uncles.

Our group approached one lawyer in each of the three surrounding counties. These gentlemen, who did not like to be involved in divorce/custody hearings, for the same reasons that many police do not enjoy being called to “domestic disputes,” were open to providing general information to our group. A couple were also willing to reduce their fees, if I prepared all of the paperwork needed for court. I’ve authored the appropriate paperwork in a couple dozen cases in the quarter century since then, and have “won” every case thus far.

Word spreads quickly. Soon, men who had no interest in being responsible parents came to us, seeking assistance. This included men who despised women. A few of them bragged about being able to intimidate the mothers of their children. One was mighty proud that he had hurt his wife, as if that was something to brag about.

In each and every instance, our group moved to kick that type of thug out of our meetings. We would try, as a group, to confront the guys that they were creating problems for themselves, and their children. Very few were willing to recognize the role they played. Instead, they became angry with the group. And, no surprise, one fellow mistakenly believed he could change our minds by threatening the two group leaders (which included me). That was a serious error on his part: he suffered the consequences.

Being pro-fathers’ rights does not translate to being anti-woman. Earlier tonight, I spoke with a woman from across the country, who leads a group of women who had the misfortune to marry psychopaths. I serve as a volunteer for that group. My tasks include assisting these ladies in how to best present the information they have, first to their lawyer, and then in court. I also spend time talking to individual group members, to help them win back the self-respect and dignity that has been stolen from them by ruthless thugs. The woman that leads this group is in the medical profession; she married a doctor, who turned out to be a snake. She and I have been friends since grade school. She knows that I try to help men going through divorce. But that doesn’t impact her trusting me to help the women in her group. The only thing that I ask in return, is that these people try to be the best parents that they can be.

Being the best parents we can be should be the focus of both men and women who are dealing with the family court system. And that’s not pro- or anti- either sex. If our society could come to terms with that aspect, we might be better equipped to deal with the numerous other problems that are caused by sexism in America.

Today, I am pretty good friends with my ex-wife. She is the mother of our two boys. And neither of us is the same person we were when we split. We enjoy each other’s company at family events. My daughters both are good friends with their brothers’ mom.

Life is a process.

110 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Men [View all] H2O Man May 2014 OP
H2OMan conflating the MRA groups being discussed here boston bean May 2014 #1
Probably for the same reason you got so defensive when someone linked you to the duckies site Major Nikon May 2014 #8
Right. H2O Man May 2014 #10
WRONG. boston bean May 2014 #16
Ignoring people you don't like is one thing. Refusing to post facts redqueen May 2014 #18
You think someone accusing me personally of doing something boston bean May 2014 #15
Actually I don't think it's the same Major Nikon May 2014 #17
I'll agree with one thing. Your post is definitly out there on the bullshit scale. boston bean May 2014 #19
So it's OK to associate you with the TERFs Major Nikon May 2014 #20
Yeah, that's the ticket. boston bean May 2014 #29
So are you saying HOF has never harbored any TERFs? Major Nikon May 2014 #32
Have you now or have you ever had interaction with or harbored a TERF? boston bean May 2014 #41
He's having a time out. n/t JTFrog May 2014 #46
One of yours had one of those this week. pintobean May 2014 #75
WTF one of mine? JTFrog May 2014 #99
There are times H2O Man May 2014 #22
a reasoned response. I admire your patience... ms liberty May 2014 #36
Thanks! H2O Man May 2014 #39
Just wondering jamzrockz May 2014 #102
Here is a definition maddezmom May 2014 #103
My approval isn't the issue. Your credibility is. redqueen May 2014 #26
Aren't you still being ReallyQuiet about your comments? Major Nikon May 2014 #27
Why should she? JTFrog May 2014 #28
You should ask her Major Nikon May 2014 #33
And your attempts at character assassination are pretty hateful and warped. JTFrog May 2014 #35
Since you deleted H2O Man May 2014 #44
No, actually, it's not: "plainly obvious that you are willing to go to bat for the alleged MRA sabrina 1 May 2014 #100
+1000 Katashi_itto May 2014 #54
I'd like to see examples too. nt redqueen May 2014 #13
bad timing. Whisp May 2014 #2
Exactly. H2O Man May 2014 #11
That's what I was thinking. Nt. Lunacee_2013 May 2014 #31
kick to mark for later after I have had time to think about this and reply beyond saying there are uppityperson May 2014 #3
Thanks. H2O Man May 2014 #24
You got two sons ... GeorgeGist May 2014 #4
yes, but sons are not material possessions. No one should own another human being. Tuesday Afternoon May 2014 #6
did u not read the whole thing leftyohiolib May 2014 #7
You should be whining about it too Major Nikon May 2014 #9
Are you saying that two sons are material good? Sissyk May 2014 #34
Thank you for sharing your personal journey and how society can be evolving albeit it in small ways Tuesday Afternoon May 2014 #5
Thanks. H2O Man May 2014 #40
Your assertion that family court is unfair to men requires more than anecdotal evidence redqueen May 2014 #12
Things are getting better in the courts for Fathers. Autumn May 2014 #14
I agree. H2O Man May 2014 #45
I always hear that women do better in family court gollygee May 2014 #21
Yep. H2O Man May 2014 #51
This message was self-deleted by its author JTFrog May 2014 #23
I can name some great men's groups that ARE NOT MRA's ismnotwasm May 2014 #25
I wish you would list them. This OP definitely seems like the right place and right time and Tuesday Afternoon May 2014 #43
K&R. Btw, someone was so scared of your words that they alerted on your post FSogol May 2014 #30
interesting the one "Hide It" had no comment....Come here and explain yourself! snooper2 May 2014 #38
Jeepers! H2O Man May 2014 #47
Yes, Life is a process. Sissyk May 2014 #37
Thanks. H2O Man May 2014 #57
If divorce has to happen (I've been through one pre kiddos) Sissyk May 2014 #74
Another great post, H20 Man. polly7 May 2014 #42
Thank you. H2O Man May 2014 #58
Terrific post, as always tkmorris May 2014 #48
Wow. Thanks. H2O Man May 2014 #59
Analogy: More than a few women might have a tendency to perceive "men's rights groups" like Zorra May 2014 #49
You might be right. H2O Man May 2014 #50
I feel like I need to respond to this. one_voice May 2014 #52
Thank you. H2O Man May 2014 #62
do you think that it's mostly women in divorce who lie about geek tragedy May 2014 #68
Yeah, you have a point... one_voice May 2014 #69
Any statistics to counter the Pew study posted below, which contradicts your claim? nt redqueen May 2014 #70
Repeating your claim that there is "no doubt" is not evidence of anything. geek tragedy May 2014 #78
I didn't say it trumped theirs... one_voice May 2014 #83
you were citing your dad's case as proof that the system was biased against men. geek tragedy May 2014 #85
Fine I'll get those statistic as soon as you get me these... one_voice May 2014 #89
here ya go! geek tragedy May 2014 #91
Where in that does it say... one_voice May 2014 #94
seriously? geek tragedy May 2014 #95
No not seriously... one_voice May 2014 #97
Here is an article with some statistics from PEW research that show that in most cases, Squinch May 2014 #53
But but but ... the 70's! And, ANECDOTES! redqueen May 2014 #55
Ah, but as long as you Squinch May 2014 #56
Right untill you actually dig into the documents the article spewed its conclusions from Egnever May 2014 #72
That doesn't prove bias. redqueen May 2014 #76
It was more lopsided in mediation Egnever May 2014 #79
Since courts are tougher on mothers in general, requiring a higher standard for them, redqueen May 2014 #80
I would love to see some data that says the courts are tougher on mothers in general. Egnever May 2014 #86
I agree about the favoring of joint custody. redqueen May 2014 #88
The article that you responded to does not state things that are not borne out by its own sources. Squinch May 2014 #92
The message doesn't change when you dig into the documents. Squinch May 2014 #90
Talk about a balloon deflating. Gravitycollapse May 2014 #65
I am so sorry you had to experience that. Squinch May 2014 #66
hmm that article has a few problems Egnever May 2014 #71
Hmmm. Maybe you should read my post and the article again. What both say is that the reason Squinch May 2014 #77
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what H2O man said in his post Egnever May 2014 #84
Exellent Thread ConnorMarc May 2014 #60
Good. H2O Man May 2014 #63
An excellent post, well thought out, and well written HuskiesHowls May 2014 #61
Thanks. H2O Man May 2014 #64
calling bullshit on your 'friends' in NY's legal community geek tragedy May 2014 #67
from the article you applauded upthread Egnever May 2014 #73
You're silly. H2O Man May 2014 #81
how many divorce cases have you tried as an attorney lately? nt geek tragedy May 2014 #98
1 H2O Man May 2014 #101
my wife has about 70 current divorce clients. geek tragedy May 2014 #106
Always glad H2O Man May 2014 #107
likewise! nt geek tragedy May 2014 #108
k&r for exposure. n/t Laelth May 2014 #82
The fact that women today get custody more often is due to patriarchal stereotypes. scruboak May 2014 #87
I may need to go back and reread his post Egnever May 2014 #96
I did not. H2O Man May 2014 #105
BINGO Hippo_Tron May 2014 #109
Kids do best after a split when both parents are involved with them Warpy May 2014 #93
Denmark bloom May 2014 #104
Honestly, I can't find anything at all offensive in this. FourScore Jun 2014 #110
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