General Discussion

randome

(34,845 posts)

116. When you steal national security documents and run from the country...

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:09 PM

May 2014

...the bar is very high, IMO, to justify doing so. If he hasn't found anything illegal, then what was the point of all this? Why all the drama about his 'hard decisions'? It was a 'hard decision' to have planned and executed this theft over a period of months without having any inkling of what he might find?

Brian Williams simply echoed what many of us have pointed out here on DU: that just because technology has advanced to the point where we have the capability to do more intrusive surveillance doesn't mean -without some sort of evidence to the contrary, of course- that our intelligence agencies are doing that.

And since the NSA is forbidden by law from spying on American citizens, the bar is even higher, IMO, to show us they are breaking that law. Otherwise, this is all just what Greenwald called it: a 'fireworks show'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

267 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Edward Snowden made a calm, compelling case for clemency last night. He's a patriot. [View all] chimpymustgo May 2014 OP

This is a rule of thumb I usually abide by. randome May 2014 #1

Brian William, a TV guy, has more inside info than the guy who actually did the work for NSA? merrily May 2014 #54

It's more like what Snowden did NOT provide: evidence. randome May 2014 #103

my post went to a dfifferent point. But, you think he owes someone proof of something? Why? merrily May 2014 #113

When you steal national security documents and run from the country... randome May 2014 #116

Did he disturb your comfortable denial bubble? You think the NSA is using their unlimited budget rhett o rick May 2014 #169

Snowden Did Well liberalmike27 May 2014 #221

I have no idea what the 1% versus the 99% has to do with this. randome May 2014 #222

You polled "every country on the planet"? The authoritarian leaders all hate Snowden. rhett o rick May 2014 #226

I don't trust the NSA. I never said I did. randome May 2014 #227

Now we are getting down to it. You dont like Snowden for a number of reasons. rhett o rick May 2014 #230

I'm sorry to barge in on the conversation, but War Horse May 2014 #255

IOW, he owes no one any proof or even any explanation. merrily May 2014 #191

Sure, anyone can shoot off their mouth. I'll give Snowden that. randome May 2014 #220

IOW, Snowden has no obligation to prove anything to anyone. merrily May 2014 #245

He doesn't present the evidence because he did not take it with him to Russia. JDPriestly May 2014 #174

Seems that he doesnt have any evidence to take anywhere....nt Cryptoad May 2014 #199

+1 uponit7771 May 2014 #122

You make good points but there is no way to know what the arthritisR_US May 2014 #127

Fair point. randome May 2014 #135

at least in theory ohheckyeah May 2014 #173

If he found improprieties, why didn't he get evidence of it? randome May 2014 #223

I think the phone records metadata ohheckyeah May 2014 #242

Lol, the telecoms have admitted what they are doing for the Govt. Now that they have been exposed sabrina 1 May 2014 #225

They have been 'exposed' since 2006 when we knew metadata storage was part of the NSA. randome May 2014 #229

But... but... Kerry said we should not like him! Obama did too! n/t ReverendDeuce May 2014 #2

Have a link to OP's or news articles directly quoting DonViejo May 2014 #26

Kerry said "he is a traitor" muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #50

Thanks for the link, much appreciated! eom DonViejo May 2014 #114

So they called him a traitor. zeemike May 2014 #63

Who are you addressing with this comment? eom DonViejo May 2014 #115

Your post #26 eom zeemike May 2014 #130

I asked a simple question... DonViejo May 2014 #136

I know you were just asking the question zeemike May 2014 #159

They called Thomas Drake a traitor too, which he wasn't. nt arthritisR_US May 2014 #137

Kerry said nothing like that. treestar May 2014 #66

This is the height of entertainment ProSense May 2014 #3

Snowden really helped his case. The interview is changing minds too - for people willing to think. chimpymustgo May 2014 #4

Brian Williams is not stupid malaise May 2014 #5

He and the other analysts tore Snowden apart after the interview. n/t ProSense May 2014 #12

Look he's a tool, a classic opportunist malaise May 2014 #16

Yet he got the interview. Greenwald ProSense May 2014 #47

Yes, he got the interview. Is that supposed to prove something? merrily May 2014 #59

Totally predictable. Media is notoriously pro-establishment--and chicken. merrily May 2014 #64

I didn't see that. Do you know if it was posted online? nt arthritisR_US May 2014 #132

You are so right. A whole bunch of people are going to look stupid - and traitorous. chimpymustgo May 2014 #55

Really? ProSense May 2014 #6

If you can't kill the message, kill the messenger. JDPriestly May 2014 #177

It's changing minds, all right. MADem May 2014 #182

They are just pulling crap from every orifice today. I'd like to see proof of "changing minds". Tarheel_Dem May 2014 #239

COMCAST/XFINITY are showcasing it in their ON DEMAND menu. MADem May 2014 #240

Thanks for that synopsis. I can't bear to watch him or GG, so I appreciate it. I think Bill Maher Tarheel_Dem May 2014 #243

how can you judge him if you won't even... grasswire May 2014 #249

You didn't watch it, yet you are passing judgment on his performance? Squinch May 2014 #253

"His performance"? Is that what it was? My mind was already made up. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2014 #256

How very Republican. Squinch Jun 2014 #257

I think you may have confused me with GG & Snowey, the Repub...er, I mean Libertarians. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2014 #258

Well, no. I am basing my opinion on your words in this thread. So not mistaking you for anyone. Squinch Jun 2014 #259

How 'bout this one? Tarheel_Dem Jun 2014 #261

"The interview is changing minds too - for people willing to think". Is this just a hunch, or is... Tarheel_Dem May 2014 #238

Nope. Not according to this "scientific" poll. MUST! TRY! HARDER! Tarheel_Dem Jun 2014 #262

People committed themselves to him the day his name came out treestar May 2014 #65

Nailed it... SidDithers May 2014 #101

And Authoritarians hated him the day his name came out. former9thward May 2014 #163

We aren't authoritarians for thinking he should face what he did treestar May 2014 #164

He would argue, and I would agree, that he acted to protect the Constitution. JDPriestly May 2014 #180

No, the jury pool has NOT been prejudiced. Most people didn't watch Snowden OR Kerry on TV. MADem May 2014 #241

NAILED It! n/t wildbilln864 May 2014 #170

If I was in deep trouble, realized that I didn't want to live in Russia any longer, but... George II May 2014 #120

That's a good point. nt arthritisR_US May 2014 #140

As an American, I think that upholding the Constitution is more impotant than JDPriestly May 2014 #181

You really hate these posts! Especially the recs! LOL! Nt Logical Jun 2014 #263

Rapid response team 3.. 2.. Capt. Obvious May 2014 #7

LOL! Anyone who responds negatively is part of a conspiracy. KittyWampus May 2014 #9

LOL YOUR WORDS NOT MINE Capt. Obvious May 2014 #10

Only someone who is part of the conspiracy would dismiss the conspiracy! randome May 2014 #11

Na na na! I can't hear you!! Generic Other May 2014 #19

Not me. I couldn't care less if the NSA continues to exist or not. randome May 2014 #34

I was agreeing with you Generic Other May 2014 #40

Or I need to work on my interpretive skills. randome May 2014 #46

Thats the point he hasn't shown what they did do... Historic NY May 2014 #57

We know know that massive amounts of data have been collected and stored, that it can be accessed at merrily May 2014 #71

I have the capability to eavesdrop outside your door. Any evidence I am doing that? randome May 2014 #118

If you eavesdropped outside someone's door, that person would have the capacity to call the JDPriestly May 2014 #183

No, he describes the Snowdenites treestar May 2014 #68

Sometimes it is not about Obama Generic Other May 2014 #212

Yes! and I see today they have a new talking point as well! nt Mojorabbit May 2014 #119

And where did I get my talking point? Generic Other May 2014 #211

Um I was agreeing with you Mojorabbit May 2014 #232

Thank you for clarifying Generic Other May 2014 #244

What was the code name for Putin again? treestar May 2014 #107

"Shirtless Bear Wrassler". nt Jamaal510 May 2014 #167

It's like they really resent disagreement on this treestar May 2014 #67

Is it different from your posts 67 and 68? merrily May 2014 #79

Yes. I didn't start an OP to talk about posters in a different OP. treestar May 2014 #82

So, the difference between grade school-like posts and other kinds is geography, not content? merrily May 2014 #92

Could you please explain what remains of the Fourth Amendment once the NSA has the authority JDPriestly May 2014 #184

A worthless piece of paper Generic Other May 2014 #213

It's so sad. JDPriestly May 2014 #234

It always takes a bit of time before they get the email with the latest talking points... backscatter712 May 2014 #48

Vapid response team in 3..2.. Bobbie Jo May 2014 #69

YAWN Capt. Obvious May 2014 #78

Stay vigilant Bobbie Jo May 2014 #91

So that's it then, You decide and we must agree? I didn't know I was in Freeperland... themaguffin May 2014 #142

We're all living in Freeperland! Generic Other May 2014 #214

Why would he need clemency? Progressive dog May 2014 #8

The excuses are all over the place. ProSense May 2014 #31

He needs presidential pardon to absolve him of all possible charges on point May 2014 #33

If Snowden needs a pardon, he must be guilty Progressive dog May 2014 #41

No, one is never guilty until found in court of law. Presumption of innocense on point May 2014 #56

A pardon means you are guilty treestar May 2014 #73

No. The presumption of innocence means that the prosecution has to prove a case in the first place, merrily May 2014 #105

He doesn't need a pardon. He needs a deal. Let his lawyers figure it out. JDPriestly May 2014 #186

Did you mean to reply to me? My post was not about needing a pardon or not. merrily May 2014 #188

Well, that is true but Progressive dog May 2014 #252

In fact, he would get so much attention treestar May 2014 #72

Snowden would NOT be given a Jury Trial. bvar22 May 2014 #156

Of course he would be given a jury trial, if he wanted that. Why would you think he would not? nt msanthrope May 2014 #160

He has the right to trial by jury treestar May 2014 #165

Sounds to me like you should be emabarrassed Progressive dog May 2014 #251

He could not get a fair trial. The jury pool has been prejudiced against him by the careless JDPriestly May 2014 #185

Sixty percent say he's a patriot Progressive dog May 2014 #250

He - and Daniel Ellsberg - have explained that clearly. But I like his going to the court of public chimpymustgo May 2014 #58

When is Daniel Ellsburg getting out of prison, Progressive dog May 2014 #97

He could argue he complied with the whistleblower law treestar May 2014 #70

Did he say he wanted to be a hero to America? merrily May 2014 #75

True. Maybe he doesn't care treestar May 2014 #77

Really? I don't think he's a hero for refusing to come back, but I understand why he doesn't. merrily May 2014 #81

He would not get a life sentence. He was charged with treestar May 2014 #148

He's been called a traitor by the highest officials of the US and can still be charged with treason. merrily May 2014 #189

But he and many Americans believe he did what he did to protect the Constitution. JDPriestly May 2014 #187

As at least one FISA court judge finally began to suggest, the courts are complicit. merrily May 2014 #196

Snowdens hypocrisy is not giving America a say on HIS actions via justice system but we should uponit7771 May 2014 #126

You may want to check the definition of hypocrisy. merrily May 2014 #208

And of course General "Star Trek" Bridge Commander Alexander Generic Other May 2014 #217

this is an ignorant post grasswire May 2014 #139

That is an excellent point. The reality of him being able to defend arthritisR_US May 2014 #143

NO, he is charged in open court treestar May 2014 #149

you are absolutely wrong. grasswire May 2014 #152

It's in the interest of national security that our government make a deal with him. JDPriestly May 2014 #190

? He's never claimed he broke no laws, has he? merrily May 2014 #74

He'made lots of claims, I can't keep track of them. eom Progressive dog May 2014 #96

Seems to be a lot of that making claims and making up claims going around on merrily May 2014 #99

+1 uponit7771 May 2014 #124

NBC did about as much for him as they could. ucrdem May 2014 #13

He came off as bastshit crazy. MohRokTah May 2014 #14

duly noted frylock May 2014 #125

I didn't get the sincerity vibe. At all. ecstatic May 2014 #15

Agreed. I don't think he did himself Bobbie Jo May 2014 #39

And Kerry hasn't finished... CanSocDem May 2014 #17

Kerry was and has been an embarrassment all around Generic Other May 2014 #20

Sez someone who couldn't hold a candle to Kerry in the public arena and how he has positively blm May 2014 #35

A candle that simply blows where the wind blows Generic Other May 2014 #36

He was spot on about Snowden. ProSense May 2014 #43

Agreeing with Obama's take when you work for Obama does not equal being "spot on." merrily May 2014 #197

Sez someone who doesn't know much about the last 4 decades of this nation's REAL history. blm May 2014 #44

Ah, so you're the one who got the real history book. merrily May 2014 #198

I guess they didn't read about cheating the vote in Ohio Generic Other May 2014 #218

Yup...keyboard warrior Snowden's the one with guts now BeyondGeography May 2014 #49

keyboard warrior? Union Scribe May 2014 #145

Well, it did take guts to snooker his co-workers into giving him their passwords BeyondGeography May 2014 #146

again, you're not getting that phrase. Union Scribe May 2014 #147

It's true...I need a proper term BeyondGeography May 2014 #150

Well, that's the correct term, either. Snowden did not steal "anonymously." merrily May 2014 #200

He was better than Murder Monkey, though that's not saying much. n/t backscatter712 May 2014 #45

Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning affectively made conscious decisions Ninga May 2014 #18

A jury of his peers Generic Other May 2014 #23

Even if you follow the law, whistleblowing is still a risky business (no movie pun intended) merrily May 2014 #201

Is he still willing... Adrahil May 2014 #21

And the Nazis who tried to bring down Hitler? Generic Other May 2014 #25

That's a bit of a stretch. olegramps May 2014 #89

So if he ends his days in solitary Generic Other May 2014 #210

That response only reveals you lack of faith in the nation. olegramps May 2014 #224

The US government has been utterly dysfunctional since Reagan Generic Other May 2014 #228

The situation will not rectified by giving up on government, but by correction. olegramps May 2014 #247

One can love the land Generic Other May 2014 #248

Are you arguing that US Foreign intelligence operation=Nazis? Adrahil May 2014 #95

At least you have thought about it Generic Other May 2014 #215

Like school in the summer time, no class uponit7771 May 2014 #128

Bless your heart Generic Other May 2014 #216

NBC had a graphic on the morning talk show... MelungeonWoman May 2014 #22

I was completely Snowden agnostic before the interview vi5 May 2014 #52

He did come off way better than John Kerry did. Autumn May 2014 #24

I didn't see the interview and care little about Snowden. At this point he's a distraction .... Scuba May 2014 #27

Snowden and PBS both feel we need to be educated about Gov survalance... Ninga May 2014 #32

How about a graphic with Snowden's other interpretation of those who steal and run? randome May 2014 #37

Knock yourself out. Scuba May 2014 #38

Bingo! The more anyone makes it about Snowden and/or Greenwald, the less they make it merrily May 2014 #195

Tell me which elected politicians have humbled themselves Generic Other May 2014 #28

And award him Medal of Freedom for service to the country on point May 2014 #29

It made a few paragraphs on page 19 of the New York Times frazzled May 2014 #30

He did very well. Throughly decent person and super-smart. Smarmie Doofus May 2014 #42

super smart? an average intelligent person would have gone to a country for asylum first before lostincalifornia May 2014 #90

You're throwing around a lot of highly subjective words in your post. Avalux May 2014 #51

Russia might jump at the chance, but Snowden claims he had no documents to put into their hands. ancianita May 2014 #80

Of course he claims that, but how do we know? Avalux May 2014 #87

Why shouldn't we? Why should we trust Clapper and the NSA or Kerry or the White House? ancianita May 2014 #94

bring down our government? grasswire May 2014 #155

Kicked and recommended a whole bunch! Enthusiast May 2014 #53

A patriot would not have given information to anyone which has been received by foreign countries. Thinkingabout May 2014 #60

He's not my hero, but I don't think you know whether the information that foreign countries got merrily May 2014 #62

It could have been and that's bad enough uponit7771 May 2014 #129

No, it really isn't. Telling someone something they already know is a non-event, not a crime. merrily May 2014 #192

He handed the documents to two American citizens, not foreign countries. Get your facts straight. ancianita May 2014 #83

ummm, Chinese media = Chinese government... there's no one who beleives they're seperate uponit7771 May 2014 #131

What? Snowden turned over docs to Americans. Do you have some 'in' with Chinese intel? ancianita May 2014 #144

Link? I've seen that claim before, but could not find a link to support it. merrily May 2014 #193

On the facts, he gave information Merkel had conversations monitored, she is from Germany, Thinkingabout May 2014 #161

Merkel, an ALLY, found out what was in docs he took from the NSA. ancianita May 2014 #162

Merkel didn't know she was monitoring? And she didn't know the US knew about her monitoring? merrily May 2014 #194

Giving info to someone who already has it is a national security problem? merrily May 2014 #203

Is China a part of the US? He provided information of our monitoring of China. Thinkingabout May 2014 #206

Who said China (or Germany) was part of the US? Also, do you have a link on China? Please see #193 merrily May 2014 #207

Traitor - Patriot rtracey May 2014 #61

If you found files on your work computer that showed your company was committing crimes zeemike May 2014 #76

Sorry, i dont see the logic rtracey May 2014 #108

So mass surveillance of the American people, against the constitution zeemike May 2014 #134

He learned of something that he thought Americans should know. merrily May 2014 #209

Like not exposing Enron and the calls about Generic Other May 2014 #219

He is no patriot, and he is an idiot also for not getting to a country where he wanted asylum first lostincalifornia May 2014 #84

He was SMART not to want his plane grounded by US intervention.Presidents of 5 S. American countries ancianita May 2014 #98

Did you read my blurb? Secure the country then release the documents lostincalifornia May 2014 #151

Post removed Post removed May 2014 #85

I see the too-much-time-on-their-hands crowd has arrived Android3.14 May 2014 #86

When did it become acceptable to attack the personal appearance of someone one disagrees with? George II May 2014 #88

The attacks on Kerry are funny because it's often said it is not about Eddie treestar May 2014 #104

Just marveling at Kerry's descent into ridiculousness. chimpymustgo May 2014 #171

Had Edward Snowden happened under a President Mitt Romney Puzzledtraveller May 2014 #93

It's pretty much in complete harmony anyway. Smarmie Doofus May 2014 #100

Nobody would be paying any attention treestar May 2014 #111

they'd be onboard if it was any other Democratic prez too Skittles May 2014 #112

No. In that scenario, Snowden would have picked up a gun and shot himself in the balls. randome May 2014 #117

Lol. Puzzledtraveller May 2014 #153

BULL FUCKING SHIT!!! uponit7771 May 2014 #133

You assume a great deal. Ikonoklast May 2014 #158

He did? I watched basketball. OKNancy May 2014 #102

The interview had an impact smallcat88 May 2014 #106

Snowden johnny156 May 2014 #109

But he is a Double Naught Spy~ MohRokTah May 2014 #121

Umm, no. No he is not a patriot. gcomeau May 2014 #110

I thought Snowden made his case pretty well, given the format. bluedigger May 2014 #123

Thanks for your candor. It was important for Americans to see and hear Snowden unfiltered. chimpymustgo May 2014 #141

There is only a handful that bash him, bvar22 May 2014 #157

Paid is my guess. Jakes Progress May 2014 #172

Amazing, how they expect us to ignore the treatment of whistleblowers dougolat May 2014 #176

libertarians strike me as very odd. stonecutter357 May 2014 #138

patsy Whisp May 2014 #154

I watched the NBC interview. Snowden came out looking good. Autumn May 2014 #166

He served the interests of humanity which includes Americans, as for the patriotism... carolinayellowdog May 2014 #168

At DU, is really about exalting the US's interests above everyone else's? If merrily May 2014 #205

Snowden is worse than a billion Hitlers nikto May 2014 #175

Well, I'm glad you saw it. Hopefully, the audience in his new country was bigger. Tarheel_Dem May 2014 #178

I don't watch anything political on television. djean111 May 2014 #202

Then what was this PR stunt for if not to change American minds? Isn't this to build support for... Tarheel_Dem May 2014 #233

I really think that Snowden does not have a "fan club" at all - there is just the ridiculous charge djean111 May 2014 #235

In other words, you don't care what your fellow Americans think. Got it! Tarheel_Dem May 2014 #236

I hatesss to pull a Godwin, but just blindly following what all one's other countrymen think can be djean111 May 2014 #237

Please tell me you are not implying that the low ratings reflect badly on Snowden. merrily May 2014 #204

I know. I feel your pain. It is sad, isn't it? Tarheel_Dem May 2014 #231

Sorry you're hurting, but it's not my pain you're feeling. I'm not in any pain. merrily May 2014 #246

, blkmusclmachine May 2014 #179

He just needs to come home and make Progressive dog May 2014 #254

The purpose of the government is to protect the 1% from the threat of democracy. Zorra Jun 2014 #260

That was probably the first time most people woo me with science Jun 2014 #264

Um. Not so much. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2014 #265

Actually, polls have pretty consistently indicated that Americans distrust NSA spying woo me with science Jun 2014 #266

Oh, there's more than one, and they all say the same thing. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2014 #267