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ozone_man

(4,825 posts)

89. The unifying attribute is having libertarian values.

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:06 PM

May 2014

There are left libertarians like Thomas Jefferson, Noam Chomsky, and right libertarians like Ron Paul. They are equally against war, spying on the public, civil liberties, and differ most on social programs. Both support Edward Snowden, and what he has revealed about our government, and that the dialogue has started.

By contrast, the authoritarian middle are best represented by the mainstream Democratic and Republican parties. They tend not to support Snowden, generally don't have an issue with the NSA, the MIC, or entering into more useless foreign wars.

At DU, there is a constant battle between the left libertarian and mainstream authoritarian viewpoints. This is generalizing of course, as there are probably plenty of authoritarians who support Snowden too.

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Snowden Fan Club, Sorry, But Snowden Lied about the email to the NSA General Counsel [View all] berni_mccoy May 2014 OP

Anti-Snowden Fan Club - it is what Snowden revealed that is important. None of the nit-picking djean111 May 2014 #1

What did Snowden reveal that wasn't already known? berni_mccoy May 2014 #4

Quite a bit actually nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #61

Richard Clarke would disagree with you berni_mccoy May 2014 #70

Richard Clark might disagree with me nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #75

The fact is, what was revealed did more harm than good. berni_mccoy May 2014 #77

It did a lot if harm to those nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #82

You're wrong about that too. In order to claim he is a whistleblower and his actions were justified stevenleser May 2014 #6

It's also clear that the journalists he initially contacted are accessories to the crime MohRokTah May 2014 #8

I'm waiting to see more evidence on that but it would not surprise me at all. stevenleser May 2014 #22

from the skimpy emails and the verbal justifications Sheepshank May 2014 #105

He asked a question about a portion of a course he did not understand. MADem May 2014 #15

Then why do so many DU'ers spend such a huge amount of time defending Snowden KittyWampus May 2014 #48

because its not about Snowden of course >.> nt Bodhi BloodWave May 2014 #110

You would think if Snowden is a whistle blower he would had saved his emails. . B Calm May 2014 #2

That's exactly what I thought when he brought this up in the interview. berni_mccoy May 2014 #5

I have been saying that from the start....IF he was such a good Systems Admin....he would have VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #28

Thank you, B. Cha May 2014 #135

Or posted them to his Facebook account by now. Major Hogwash May 2014 #140

+++++++++++++DING DING DING+++++++++++++++++++++ uponit7771 Jun 2014 #154

The fact is that Snowden is lying & has been lying all along. baldguy May 2014 #3

Even if that's all true, it's ad hominem thesquanderer May 2014 #14

Richard Clarke, you know, the guy who DU Loves because he said Bush committed War Crimes berni_mccoy May 2014 #17

Okay, that's a debate worth having thesquanderer May 2014 #33

It's not ad hominem. It goes to his character. baldguy May 2014 #34

What NSA accusations of his turned out to be false? thesquanderer May 2014 #40

Not ad hominem. If the question is whether or not he tells the truth, his truthfulness is at issue. baldguy May 2014 #57

Where did he say the NSA can read your mind? thesquanderer May 2014 #74

Snowden said they can read our thoughts as we are formulating them, in the BW interview. MADem May 2014 #96

Did he mean that in the same sense of how Facebook works? thesquanderer May 2014 #98

Yes, he specifically referenced editing a document, and expressed shock and dismay!!!!!! MADem May 2014 #101

His revealing military secrets is not ad hominem, and I don't see the "good" whathehell May 2014 #42

I missed the fact that he revealed military secrets. dballance May 2014 #44

Here's one instance.. whathehell May 2014 #79

That's not exactly news for anyone who belives they may be tracked because they're a Terrorist dballance May 2014 #90

Apparently, it was news for them. whathehell May 2014 #133

This is false many low levels dont know what can be tracked uponit7771 Jun 2014 #155

I'm having difficulty undersgtanding your point. dballance Jun 2014 #156

I did not say that all attacks against him were ad hominem, thesquanderer May 2014 #52

I'd say a reputation for lying is highly relevant in his case n/t whathehell May 2014 #81

This isn't a party line issue. It's not Liberals go this way, Conservatives go that way. MADem May 2014 #16

"There's a team on Fox cheering Snowden on..." baldguy May 2014 #41

Exactly! +1 B Calm May 2014 #130

This week! Next week they'll be worrying if Brian Kilmeade got a cold sore from so much asskissing!! Major Hogwash May 2014 #137

Correct, it's not a simple party division thesquanderer May 2014 #43

Advocating for Ron Paul does not help your cause. baldguy May 2014 #59

What hypocrisy? thesquanderer May 2014 #63

The unifying attribute is having libertarian values. ozone_man May 2014 #89

I think it is maybe a bit more complex than that (with some, granted, not all). MADem May 2014 #95

He is either a chronic liar and a con-artist.... VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #31

Both. baldguy May 2014 #45

Yes that is what I meant to say.... VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #46

Well damn baldguy, you should pipe up more often. Tarheel_Dem May 2014 #104

You believe the NSA? caseymoz May 2014 #7

Did you forget that Snowden worked for the professional liars club? berni_mccoy May 2014 #9

And repented. Same as any Whistleblower. caseymoz May 2014 #13

It strains all creduality that Snowden ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2014 #19

Really, he could have tossed a few copies up in "the cloud"--even as attachments to MADem May 2014 #106

Jesus, the person you are speaking with has "blocked" you for expressing a differing opinion! MADem May 2014 #103

Not believing Snowden, ProSense May 2014 #10

So ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2014 #20

AND he took 1.7 million documents and used other peoples usernames/passwords to get them but... stevenleser May 2014 #23

but the NSA is the only government agency that actually listens to us. B Calm May 2014 #11

For all the wrong reasons. caseymoz May 2014 #24

Glad to see you admit that Snow den is a Tea Bagger. B Calm May 2014 #29

yes or he would have them himself....everyone in IT always saves emails especially those to VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #47

How do you believe or not believe the NSA? treestar May 2014 #132

His e-mail looks like bait to pin any alleged abuses on the President and other higher up. BenzoDia May 2014 #12

And you believe the NSA. Fuddnik May 2014 #18

And Snowden has no vested interest in lying? eom 1StrongBlackMan May 2014 #21

Is it an either/or choice? Or can there be more layers to the onion? nt msanthrope May 2014 #25

The swarm defends liars every day.I bahrbearian May 2014 #58

Blasphemy!!!!!!! Fuddnik May 2014 #69

Ha ha! It's a trap! sofa king May 2014 #26

You make some sense up to a point. TM99 May 2014 #39

i haven't watched the interview; Did BW ask Snowden why he didn't keep copies of the emails? n/t yodermon May 2014 #27

A good journalist would have. berni_mccoy May 2014 #30

If snowden/greenwald were to release the emails tomorrow, would you believe them to be legit copies yodermon May 2014 #56

Why don't you ask Richard Clarke berni_mccoy May 2014 #67

..right after i mention "appeal to authority" yodermon May 2014 #80

There is no fallacy when the appeal is to an actual authority on the subject being discussed. Ikonoklast May 2014 #86

that was probably on the DONOTASK or this Interview is over requirements.. VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #49

Not that I saw. I understand NBC has done a FOIA. MADem May 2014 #97

I have stayed out of this discussion, but Snowden's Ilsa May 2014 #32

So berni, we're going with the boy scouts at the NSA this time? rgbecker May 2014 #35

DLC inspired bahrbearian May 2014 #60

You don't need to be a supporter of anyone to recognize the utter worthlessness of this email. randome May 2014 #64

That's cool. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2014 #36

An email exchange that is dated after he met with Greenwald and Poitras. randome May 2014 #65

Gosh NSA says it has no emails. Imagine that. Katashi_itto May 2014 #37

and Gosh Darn IT Uber Spy Snowden didn't CYA by downloading those emails first... VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #53

Yeah, just awful how he forgot to cover every single thing, being the uber spy he is. Katashi_itto May 2014 #66

If you ever worked in govt IT you would know that CYA is the first thing you think of... VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #84

Weird, I happen to work in the Govt. He is neither crazy nor stupid. Katashi_itto May 2014 #93

Do you work in IT? VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #108

Lol, spin it however you like. Katashi_itto May 2014 #109

LOL its not spin when I KNOW it to be true... VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #111

Yes...I sure you've worked stuff like Stellar Wind... Katashi_itto May 2014 #112

You would actually be surprised... VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #113

Gosh that makes all the difference, but considering the slant of your posts I would not be Katashi_itto May 2014 #114

Actually you would....as I said...I do IT work.... as in a Developer....not content creation... VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #115

So your Pro authoritarian then? Katashi_itto May 2014 #116

Is that the Black to your White in your world? VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #117

Just reading your posts is all :) Katashi_itto May 2014 #118

I am in good company with those who love this country....by that I mean this form of Govt. VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #120

Yes. It must be hard to view oneself in real terms. Katashi_itto May 2014 #121

Not hard at all....So now being a Liberal Socialist Democrat is == Nazi? VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #122

I didn't call you anything. Katashi_itto May 2014 #123

The day's anti-Snowden circle jerk has begun. nt elias49 May 2014 #38

+1 Katashi_itto May 2014 #94

What I see the NSA showing what a sham their obedience of the law is.... Pholus May 2014 #50

^^^^^^^ grasswire May 2014 #128

And we can take the NSA's word on that Savannahmann May 2014 #51

As Always Ed, Should You Or Any Of Your I.M. Force Be Caught Or Killed, The Secretary Will Disavow.. global1 May 2014 #62

"Snowden Fan Club" dawg May 2014 #54

LOL laundry_queen May 2014 #71

very clear example bobduca May 2014 #72

It doesn't matter. He did what needed to be done. Period. End of story. bowens43 May 2014 #55

Richard Clarke would disagree with you berni_mccoy May 2014 #68

Argument settled! bobduca May 2014 #78

Lol! neverforget May 2014 #107

He committed espionage. Period. End of story. MohRokTah May 2014 #73

Does your nickname happen to be... grasswire May 2014 #129

heavens knows we can trust the word of the NSA bigtree May 2014 #76

Given that the email released has nothing to do with Whistleblowing berni_mccoy May 2014 #85

No one has to "trust" the NSA, but it's ProSense May 2014 #87

Excellent point, ProSense.. Snowden's a liar. Cha Jun 2014 #159

Snowden raising issues of legality? He did nit legally follow the chain, he stole, Thinkingabout May 2014 #83

It seems to be down to three sides LanternWaste May 2014 #88

You forgot the fourth side. nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #91

I rarely giggle at a reasoned argument LanternWaste May 2014 #100

The problem is that I cannot giggle nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #124

Meh. nt Javaman May 2014 #92

This thread is all kinds of awesome... SidDithers May 2014 #99

"Spittle-flecked outrage" is an apt description. Tarheel_Dem May 2014 #102

Plus there's the foaming at the mouth, fawning section! Major Hogwash May 2014 #138

Feinstein's release of one e-mail this morning disproves the premise of your post. JDPriestly May 2014 #119

Huh? ProSense May 2014 #126

Why should berni "remove his post"? It proves Snowden's a fucking liar like I already knew. Cha May 2014 #127

So. Do you support the NSA collating records on you and your calls and correspondence? Jakes Progress Jun 2014 #146

This is about Snowden being a stupid libertarian liar. He should have gone through the proper Cha Jun 2014 #147

I see you ducked. Probably a good idea Jakes Progress Jun 2014 #149

I don't have to answer to some anonymous GG/ES fan on the internet.. GG's making $$$$$$ Cha Jun 2014 #153

Still ducking. Good idea. Jakes Progress Jun 2014 #157

Still kicking this thread.. Good! Cha Jun 2014 #158

How do you define a coward? Jakes Progress Jun 2014 #160

Edward Fuckng Snowden in Russia. Cha Jun 2014 #162

Again. Cowardly ducking. Jakes Progress Jun 2014 #163

Bookmarked for future reference. GeorgeGist May 2014 #125

And asking them one of the dumbest legal questions in the world treestar May 2014 #131

Do you support the NSA surveillance program as we now know it stands? Jakes Progress May 2014 #134

Most people truly don't care about the NSA spying on other countries. randome May 2014 #142

I didn't ask "most people". Jakes Progress Jun 2014 #145

Not at all. I would be appropriately outraged if that was happening. randome Jun 2014 #150

If? Jakes Progress Jun 2014 #151

Do those fan club members have to return their secret decoder ring now?? Major Hogwash May 2014 #136

He also lied about being "trained as a spy" Number23 May 2014 #139

Lying has always been a republican trait! B Calm May 2014 #141

Along with its associates... Bobbie Jo May 2014 #144

Given the choice between... 99Forever May 2014 #143

What a dilemma, the NSA or Edward Snowden. Who to believe? Autumn Jun 2014 #148

I have no doubt that at certain levels no whistleblowing is allowed or tolerated. Zen Democrat Jun 2014 #152

No worries, we have Bergdahl now to take us off Snowden. Puzzledtraveller Jun 2014 #161