General Discussion

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)

278. McGovern wasn't a centrist but a campaign run against the Nixon dirty tricks team

Fri May 30, 2014, 11:04 PM

May 2014

and with the party regulars treating our presidential candidate as if he'd had no right to win the nomination was not a fair test of support for the ideas that campaign stood for.

Dukakis was a centrist technocrat and a homophobe. He was to the right of Reagan on defense(supporting a 6% annual increase in the war budget at a time when the conflict with the USSR was over.

Clinton was personally charismatic and the beneficiary of an unexpected collapse in #41's support. He'd have won on any platform. His centrism had little to do with his narrow victory. His support of universal healthcare had a LOT to do with it, but he
never really tried to get a healthcare bill (as opposed to NAFTA and Glass-Stegall repeal, where he went to the mat to give corporate power huge victories over the interests of the Democratic base and the millions of other working-class Americans).

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All three Democratic presidential losses in the Eighties were caused by centrism. [View all] Ken Burch May 2014 OP

If you had stated that centrism is a major contributing factor, I would have agreed. cali May 2014 #1

I really think the most boring candidate loses each time yeoman6987 May 2014 #13

That is also a good point. Ken Burch May 2014 #17

Agreed to a certain extent AleksS May 2014 #39

Some counter examples: salib May 2014 #96

But note those examples were all further in the past than Ken's. n/t nomorenomore08 May 2014 #118

Well, if it is only valid for a particular time frame salib May 2014 #125

But it certainly is a valid argument that none of the candidates mentioned in the OP were all that nomorenomore08 May 2014 #131

Harding and Coolidge were "centrists"? n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #132

Yes, it's hard to ignore the contributions made by dirty Republican tactics. Jackpine Radical May 2014 #32

Those did play a role. Ken Burch May 2014 #35

Gary Hart Worried Them billhicks76 May 2014 #54

I think its insulting to Warren to equate her with Grayson 7962 May 2014 #85

Insulting? billhicks76 May 2014 #129

Warren is a delightful person. She has an infectious enthusiasm and good, JDPriestly May 2014 #151

I agree. Thats why I wouldnt put Grayson in her class. nt 7962 May 2014 #161

Centrism is what causes these candidates to appear boring and dull. fasttense May 2014 #94

About that "hope and change" rhetoric... Maedhros May 2014 #184

Good point. fasttense May 2014 #202

At this point, it's just branding. "Vote for HOPE (tm)" [n/t] Maedhros May 2014 #207

*** L0oniX May 2014 #2

Ever hear the term Reagan Democrats? upaloopa May 2014 #3

it was because they view and continue to view social program as being handouts to minorities JI7 May 2014 #8

Which is really dumb on the Reagan Dems part! FrodosPet May 2014 #135

Those voters could have been won back on labor law reform. Ken Burch May 2014 #11

they would have been won back if the Dems supported a Law preventing BLacks from equal rights JI7 May 2014 #12

No, that wouldn't have been enough for those who were specifically race-obsessed. Ken Burch May 2014 #15

40 percent of Democrats voted against Obama in West Virginia Primary JI7 May 2014 #16

And a candidate that could appeal to those people couldn't possibly be progressive in office Ken Burch May 2014 #21

I was one of those Democrats who voted against Obama in the 2012 West Virginia Primary Lasher May 2014 #116

who did those 40% vote FOR, btw? n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #119

I voted for some prisoner in Texas, if memory serves. Lasher May 2014 #121

Most of those people haven't been Democrats for years, but never bothered to re-register Hippo_Tron May 2014 #287

Please tell me you're being "ironic" there. Ken Burch May 2014 #34

We didn't need to get those voters back, what wich half the electorate sitting on their hands. Scuba May 2014 #75

Mondale never had a chance Art_from_Ark May 2014 #166

I heard VP Mondale do an interview on local radio a couple of years ago. Jenoch May 2014 #190

Why did he even run, then? Ken Burch May 2014 #210

My guess is the DNC thought Mondale provided the best chance at winning. Jenoch May 2014 #212

There were so many other votes the party could have won that year. Ken Burch May 2014 #215

Yeah, I don't buy any of that. Jenoch May 2014 #218

False equivalence. Ken Burch May 2014 #220

Gays for Reagan mississippi62 May 2014 #55

Yep, that's the way I remember it tool. Also, Reagan was a polished speaker, he knew how to speak RKP5637 May 2014 #58

+1 MannyGoldstein May 2014 #4

dukakis lost points after he said he would oppose the death penalty even if his wife was raped and JI7 May 2014 #5

Dukakis was already way behind by then. Ken Burch May 2014 #7

Agreed IkeRepublican May 2014 #122

He also didn't help himself much by driving that tank in a parade . . . markpkessinger May 2014 #187

the 'pugs said that stunt made Dukakis look like "a heavily-armed attack rodent" n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #216

so clinton was more liberal than carter, mondale and dukakis JI7 May 2014 #6

In practice, he wasn't actually much further right. Ken Burch May 2014 #9

They'd have voted for Satan over Pappy Bush Warpy May 2014 #28

The worst of Clinton's pandering to the right . . markpkessinger May 2014 #189

Were you even there? MohRokTah May 2014 #10

I was there. I'm 53. Saw it all go down. Ken Burch May 2014 #14

If that's the way you remember it, there's no talking to you. MohRokTah May 2014 #23

There were no candidates to Mondale or Dukakis' right who'd have done better in '84 or '88. Ken Burch May 2014 #29

Suffice it to say, we are in complete disagreement on this. eom MohRokTah May 2014 #31

Yes it seems you want to blame the liberals and on a liberal message board no less. rhett o rick May 2014 #111

Pretzel logic is often strange. Rex May 2014 #176

Kennedy did not cause Carter's loss dflprincess May 2014 #52

K&R. Well said. Overseas May 2014 #107

And John Anderson Doctor_J May 2014 #109

Carter lost because of severe inflation and Iran, Art_from_Ark May 2014 #167

Actually, Carter mainly lost because he did nothing to reduce unemployment. Ken Burch May 2014 #230

You seem to only be able to make your points by claiming others are ignorant Armstead May 2014 #86

And you make unfounded accusations. MohRokTah May 2014 #183

speaking of unfounded accusations, you assume the OP wasn't there Armstead May 2014 #195

And again, you make an unfounded accusation. MohRokTah May 2014 #200

Oh whatever, your personalized approach is boring Armstead May 2014 #205

As is yours. We are done with any attempts to ever discuss anything. MohRokTah May 2014 #206

Couldn't agree more LordGlenconner May 2014 #171

No. Simply Not True Algernon Moncrieff May 2014 #18

While they are true, none of your points refuted my thesis Ken Burch May 2014 #26

The thesis was that all three Democratic candidiates lost because they went centrist. Algernon Moncrieff May 2014 #91

Good points, plus the media played a big part in painting all of them as weak. Major Hogwash May 2014 #33

The way to have beaten the "weak" tag would have been to be gutsy on the issues. Ken Burch May 2014 #49

Pretty much. joshcryer May 2014 #77

I remember the Dukakis campaign well. pa28 May 2014 #19

I think you nailed it here, he came off as very weak. Americans didn't even 't bother to check bettyellen May 2014 #37

We couldn't win in the eighties because there were just too many jittery whites. RDANGELO May 2014 #20

Abandoning African Americans would have made our party morally worthless. Ken Burch May 2014 #22

these "better angels" found Reagan's Welfare Queen appealing JI7 May 2014 #24

I think to some degree that's what they tried to do. RDANGELO May 2014 #25

We're no longer really the base. TransitJohn May 2014 #27

Nobody to our right is. Ken Burch May 2014 #30

The real progressive who ran lost very, very big treestar May 2014 #36

ANY Dem would have lost big time in the gamed election of '72. Ken Burch May 2014 #38

And yet Al Gore won in 2000, funny how some like to forget all about him. Rex May 2014 #177

I was talking about 1972, not 2000 n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #211

Being old enough to remember 1972 (my first vote was for McGovern) Lydia Leftcoast May 2014 #289

+1. greatauntoftriplets May 2014 #43

NO Dem could have done well against Nixon's dirty tricks. Ken Burch May 2014 #50

This isn't the 60's or the 70's Armstead May 2014 #88

Carter lost also because Reagan and Bush committed treason nakocal May 2014 #40

Message auto-removed Name removed May 2014 #42

That's true. Reagan DID commit treason...as Nixon did in 1968, Ken Burch May 2014 #47

+1! Rhiannon12866 May 2014 #61

That is a succinct and clear analysis of what happened. greatlaurel May 2014 #163

Yep, and Bill Clinton swept to victory in 1996 with an unapologetic socialist platform Nye Bevan May 2014 #41

DOMA wasn't in the platform, neither was NAFTA Ken Burch May 2014 #46

I said 1996, and in that campaign he bragged about signing DOMA Nye Bevan May 2014 #51

Yeah, he bragged about it, but it didn't gain him votes. Ken Burch May 2014 #53

but he still won. wyldwolf May 2014 #194

So what? It wasn't going to cost him votes either. Ken Burch May 2014 #214

so being a centrist in the 80s makes you lose, being one in the 90s makes you win. wyldwolf May 2014 #222

Having no personal appeal, not responding to smears, and campaigning badly Ken Burch May 2014 #224

but you said it was being a centrist. Make up your mind. wyldwolf May 2014 #231

It's both...it's not either/or. Ken Burch May 2014 #238

So for the benefit of the two people still reading this thread... wyldwolf May 2014 #239

An oversimplification, but for those particular campaigns, somewhat accurate. Ken Burch May 2014 #241

So your OP is wrong according to you wyldwolf May 2014 #242

No, and you have no need to be obsessed with proving me "wrong". Ken Burch May 2014 #246

you're proving yourself wrong the further you go down this "appeal vs. policy" path wyldwolf May 2014 #247

No I'm not. Ken Burch May 2014 #249

You're moving the goal posts to fit your theory wyldwolf May 2014 #250

No...I'm including other factors that played contributing roles. Ken Burch May 2014 #255

after your first factors were shown to be bogus. Goal post moving. wyldwolf May 2014 #259

No, my first factors were not shown to be bogus at all Ken Burch May 2014 #260

they were repeatedly, and you had no supportive documented facts wyldwolf May 2014 #265

No, they were not. No one offered any evidence discrediting my argument at all. Ken Burch May 2014 #268

I didn't say you weren't there. wyldwolf May 2014 #269

WE were busy purging bigots from the Party in the 80's Cryptoad May 2014 #44

It's not like we should have continued tolerating the bigots. Ken Burch May 2014 #48

After signing the 1964 Civil Rights Act, LBJ said Democrats had lost the South for a generation. Lasher May 2014 #158

The Democratic Presidential wins in the 90's an 00's were won by obxhead May 2014 #45

Bingo Armstead May 2014 #89

Reagan won because the corporate media waltzed him into office. And kept him there. Zen Democrat May 2014 #56

It was a media sell-job, but nobody's "liberalism" had anything to do with it. Ken Burch May 2014 #57

The same corporate media kept 1-inch headlines counting days the hostages remained in captivity, Overseas May 2014 #110

That was only made possible because Carter had caused the embassy takeover Ken Burch May 2014 #263

And some of those moves were what gave some Dems reasons to defect to the rosy rhetoric Overseas May 2014 #270

True....the problem was, our party wasn't giving those voters any reason to think Ken Burch May 2014 #272

This is a MUST READ!!!!! emsimon33 May 2014 #59

Thanks for the support. Have a nice weekend. n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #60

You wrote nothing so i can agree with that. whistler162 May 2014 #68

And the most liberal in decades, George McGovern, lost 49 states. n/t pnwmom May 2014 #62

The Nixon dirty tricks squad would have made sure ANY Dem went down in flames that year. Ken Burch May 2014 #63

CREEP hand selected McGovern because he would be the easiest to beat. McCamy Taylor May 2014 #128

Hugging the center means not being different than the right once you're in office. Ken Burch May 2014 #130

Back to when the "modern" trend started... PATRICK May 2014 #64

A non-centrist Democrat (or Republican) has never won the presidency. Progressive dog May 2014 #65

Anyone who thinks Ronald Reagan or George W. Bush were centrist is living in cloud cuckoo land Douglas Carpenter May 2014 #66

The reality is that only centrists (or candidates able to Progressive dog May 2014 #69

Who ever is perceived as the mostist centralist Cryptoad May 2014 #70

Reagan wasn't perceived as "more centrist" than Carter or Mondale. Ken Burch May 2014 #105

He sure was in enough states for him to win...... Cryptoad May 2014 #117

Wrong. The votes are on the left, but staying home as they have no candidate representing them. Scuba May 2014 #76

If they stay home they don't count, Progressive dog May 2014 #169

If we give them no reasons to go vote, we don't count. Scuba May 2014 #170

No, I vote, I count Progressive dog May 2014 #172

You can't expect people to vote in years where no candidate cares about their issues Ken Burch May 2014 #227

That's how to win elections, refuse to Progressive dog May 2014 #233

We don't have to nominate people who are further away from us Ken Burch May 2014 #237

Obama was nominted and in 2008 Progressive dog May 2014 #252

I didn't say I believe Obama was a Republican. Ken Burch May 2014 #256

" Jimmy Carter ran for re-election on an essentially moderate Republican record.." Progressive dog May 2014 #257

And I was talking there about Carter, not Obama. Ken Burch May 2014 #261

Okay so Carter was a Republican because he supported the Shah Progressive dog May 2014 #266

He didn't send in troops, but he did give his verbal and diplomatic support to him til the end. Ken Burch May 2014 #267

Pahlevi was in power long before Carter Progressive dog May 2014 #295

I know that. But the Iranian people were trying to remove him and Carter wanted him to stay on. Ken Burch May 2014 #298

so Kucinich was not on the Left ? did Elizabeth warren get much higher voters than Obama, or is she JI7 May 2014 #192

I worked on the Kucinich campaign in Minnesota Lydia Leftcoast May 2014 #290

I would replace "centrist" with moderate Armstead May 2014 #90

Centrist simply means to be in the Progressive dog May 2014 #173

Technically yes -- in modern reality no Armstead May 2014 #174

The Merriam Webster still has missed Progressive dog May 2014 #175

Okay if you want to play word games.... Armstead May 2014 #179

Word games are when what the OP believes to be centrist Progressive dog May 2014 #180

Now you have me totaly confused,,, Armstead May 2014 #181

The point is easy, the OP claims Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis lost Progressive dog May 2014 #182

The OP ws making a more nuaned argument rather than your one phrase summary Armstead May 2014 #185

Actually the OP was reaching an admittedly wrong conclusion. Progressive dog May 2014 #191

obviously you are welcome to disagree with his premise Armstead May 2014 #196

When use changes, dictionaries change Progressive dog May 2014 #197

you're back to word games Armstead May 2014 #198

Word games would be when someone will not acknowledge Progressive dog May 2014 #199

It is not personal word definition...It is commonly used. Armstead May 2014 #203

Word definitions are in the dictionary Progressive dog May 2014 #208

Whatever Armstead May 2014 #209

It's not an "admittedly wrong conclusion". I didn't admit anything of the kind. Ken Burch May 2014 #226

Words are normally intended to communicate Progressive dog May 2014 #229

LBJ won by realizing the country had moved left in 1964 Ken Burch May 2014 #234

Right for once, the country moved left, Progressive dog May 2014 #253

Tell that to FDR in 1936, or LBJ in 1964, or Obama in 2008 Ken Burch May 2014 #102

All Obama had to do in 2008 was beat Hillary in the pirmary. Lasher May 2014 #159

They were all centrists and they ran on a centrist platform. Progressive dog May 2014 #168

FDR was NO centrist in 1936 Ken Burch May 2014 #219

Yes, they were centrist, by the dictionary definition, Progressive dog May 2014 #223

Al Gore won in 2000. Rex May 2014 #178

No they weren't! whistler162 May 2014 #67

Has there been a successful Democratic candidate since FDR whom you would not call centrist? muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #71

we can debate FDR all day, but the fact remains progressive of the day hated him, too. wyldwolf May 2014 #84

Not the FDR who denounced "economic royalists" and "malefactors of great wealth" Ken Burch May 2014 #103

You're defending THIS guy? wyldwolf May 2014 #134

You can defend the progressive parts of FDR without defending those things. Ken Burch May 2014 #139

Just as you can with all the Democrats you regularly trash on DU wyldwolf May 2014 #141

I don't trash anyone. I just speak out on the issues. Ken Burch May 2014 #148

You trashed three presidential nominees with your bogus OP wyldwolf May 2014 #154

I didn't trash them. In fact I voted for ALL of them(did you?) Ken Burch May 2014 #217

Of course you trashed them - unless you now believe being a centrist is a good thing wyldwolf May 2014 #221

I believe running a good campaign is a good thing. Ken Burch May 2014 #225

so do I. Clinton ran a good campaign twice - on centrist policies. wyldwolf May 2014 #232

He ran a good campaign and won on personal appeal. Ken Burch May 2014 #235

if Carter, Mondale and Dukakis had had that animal magnetism, they would have won? wyldwolf May 2014 #236

Actually, yes. Ken Burch May 2014 #240

so you admit your OP is wrong. According to you... wyldwolf May 2014 #243

No, I don't Ken Burch May 2014 #244

OH - the 80s were just different. LOL wyldwolf May 2014 #245

True mvd May 2014 #144

du rec. xchrom May 2014 #72

I think the problem with the Democratic Party nyabingi May 2014 #73

Demographics indicate we don't need those whites back treestar May 2014 #80

That's especially true now and I think nyabingi May 2014 #114

I remember when maindawg May 2014 #74

Acting like a Republican is not going to peel off votes of the mythical moderate Republican .... Scuba May 2014 #78

silly argument regurgitated over and over and over and over and... wyldwolf May 2014 #79

I offered corraborative evidence. Ken Burch May 2014 #104

agree they were too RW and it made them look bad, but I think the country was having a conservative bettyellen May 2014 #115

that's how you remember it wyldwolf May 2014 #133

What I said was that those were their positions Ken Burch May 2014 #137

In other words, after everything you've wrote, you have ZERO supportive evidence of your positions. wyldwolf May 2014 #140

53% is cratering. That means half the voters didn't vote. Ken Burch May 2014 #146

But we're not discussing 1960. We're discussing the 1980s, where turnout was consistent wyldwolf May 2014 #147

flatlining is essentially the same thing. Ken Burch May 2014 #149

It's completely different. You can't change word definitions for your needs. wyldwolf May 2014 #153

Sadly true mythology May 2014 #248

1980, ..... the only presidential election I didn't go to the polls. meti57b May 2014 #81

"Why?" Because the moneyed interests can't lose when both party candidates are beholden NorthCarolina May 2014 #82

Funny. Thats the same thing the right says about their recent losses. Not "conservative enough". 7962 May 2014 #83

That doesn't discredit the argument. Ken Burch May 2014 #124

Republicans make the same argument... brooklynite May 2014 #87

Yup, they do. Some of our people has the dome flavor of delusion. NT Adrahil May 2014 #155

Never mind the media collusion, Repubs dealing with Iran to fuck Carter, and such... riqster May 2014 #92

An ideology and $13 will get you across the GWB. Walk away May 2014 #93

Centrism is tantamount to doing absolutely nothing, status quo, laziness at best, why bother mother earth May 2014 #95

Right now, the Republicans are radical reactionaries trying to hasten our transition to Empire. Maedhros May 2014 #186

We Followed The Republicans Rightward colsohlibgal May 2014 #97

They feared the media more than they believed the polls. CrispyQ May 2014 #98

I sure hope we're on the road to recovery and beginning to see the good sense of liberal/progressive gtar100 May 2014 #99

I Agree With The Premise supercats May 2014 #100

The only election the Democrats lost because of centrism was 1980 and that was due to a primary. Drunken Irishman May 2014 #101

Facts wyldwolf May 2014 #136

My OP was full of facts. Ken Burch May 2014 #142

"And Carter was always going to lose once the hostage thing happened." wyldwolf May 2014 #143

I just demonstrated how Carter's conservative policy on Iran caused the embassy takeover Ken Burch May 2014 #150

But you didn't prove that policy caused his defeat wyldwolf May 2014 #152

What, you don't think the Iran hostage crisis caused Carter's defeat in 1980? Lasher May 2014 #160

that isn't what the OP is arguing wyldwolf May 2014 #164

Lowering inflation meant deliberately increasing unemployment Ken Burch May 2014 #271

which is beside the point. Lowering inflation was a popular move. It wasn't a 'centrist policy.' wyldwolf May 2014 #274

He lost because unemployment went up. Unemployment goes up when you put low inflation first. Ken Burch May 2014 #275

But that isn't a centrist policy wyldwolf May 2014 #276

putting low inflation before full employment isn't centrist? Ken Burch May 2014 #279

No. There is no proof of that... wyldwolf May 2014 #286

The massive grassroots demand that Teddy, with all his flaws, should challenge Carter for the nom Ken Burch May 2014 #291

Really? Show me evidence of that. wyldwolf May 2014 #292

In past threads, I showed you polls and you simply dismissed them. Ken Burch May 2014 #293

So NOW your line is you HAVE shown polls. LOL wyldwolf May 2014 #294

I said in past threads, not this one. Ken Burch May 2014 #296

Show us those threads. Or else that's just one more thing you've made up. wyldwolf May 2014 #297

That goes back to earlier versions of DU. And who's this "us"? you only speak for yourself. Ken Burch May 2014 #299

excuses excuses. No threads. No polls. Just your imagination. wyldwolf May 2014 #300

No, the reality that occurred. Ken Burch May 2014 #301

... in your imagination wyldwolf Jun 2014 #302

How old were you at the time? Ken Burch Jun 2014 #303

irrelevant. What your OP says runs counter to every political science and historical reference wyldwolf Jun 2014 #304

My OP doesn't run counter to every political science and historical reference. Ken Burch Jun 2014 #305

well, everyone except yours wyldwolf Jun 2014 #306

I don't need to. Read history for yourself for once...and not just the approved corporate version. Ken Burch Jun 2014 #307

History? What you've giving is more like 'alternate history' - an exercise in what ifs. wyldwolf Jun 2014 #308

It's not about polling data. Ken Burch May 2014 #254

yeah, it's about that warm truthiness you feel in your gut. wyldwolf May 2014 #258

It's about cause and effect Ken Burch May 2014 #262

based on nothing but your imagination - certainly no documented evidence. wyldwolf May 2014 #264

Democratic voters put full employment as the first economic priority Ken Burch May 2014 #281

No they didn't wyldwolf May 2014 #285

As another post indicated BootinUp May 2014 #204

K&R. Well said. I remember it happening. Overseas May 2014 #106

then how to you explain the losses of McCarthy and McGovern? n/t Hamlette May 2014 #108

Eugene McCarthy was screwed over by the nominating process. Ken Burch May 2014 #120

Want to light up the Democratic Party, bvar22 May 2014 #112

Someone once said that 47of74 May 2014 #113

It was Truman who said that, IIRC. n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #123

Correct.. butterfly77 May 2014 #126

"Centrism"? Is that the new word for Hostages for Votes? McCamy Taylor May 2014 #127

You are spot on. greatlaurel May 2014 #162

thank you. wyldwolf May 2014 #165

Not true. nt UTUSN May 2014 #138

Big K&R mvd May 2014 #145

This is total unadulterated nonsense. greatlaurel May 2014 #156

I think you know that this country, at least the lower classes, will not survive 8 more years rhett o rick May 2014 #188

Apparantly, former independent and one-time GOP supporter Elizabeth Warren thinks Hillary should run Algernon Moncrieff May 2014 #213

K&R raouldukelives May 2014 #157

K&R woo me with science May 2014 #193

k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t Laelth May 2014 #201

Not how politics works. Candidates are Party Centric for Primaries, Nation Centric for Generals. nt TheBlackAdder May 2014 #228

So if Mondale would have driven through poor neighborhoods BeyondGeography May 2014 #251

I think you are trying to hard to make an argument based on a "correlation/causality" premise. phleshdef May 2014 #273

Was George McGovern a centrist or Michael Dukakis? Gee, I can pick any decade to fit a premise lostincalifornia May 2014 #277

McGovern wasn't a centrist but a campaign run against the Nixon dirty tricks team Ken Burch May 2014 #278

That was my point, McGovern was a liberal and lost big time regardless of nixon's dirty tricks lostincalifornia May 2014 #283

What does it matter what McGovern was? 1972 was an un-winnable election Hippo_Tron May 2014 #282

My point was at that time a liberal was not going to win, and yes I am proud to say I voted for lostincalifornia May 2014 #284

Two of those three losses were caused by factors entirely beyond anyone's control Hippo_Tron May 2014 #280

So will number four. Jakes Progress May 2014 #288