General Discussion

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)

279. putting low inflation before full employment isn't centrist?

Fri May 30, 2014, 11:13 PM

May 2014

Ok, it's right of center then. That doesn't weaken my argument. It means I was actually being generous in calling it centrist.
It was an economic royalist policy that was only popular on Wall Street and among Milton Friedman afficionados. And itcoud still be called "centrist" in the sense that it reflected the "conventional wisdom" of the Beltway/corporate elite, the ones who were already plotting to destroy the middle class and totally dehumanize both the working poor and those poor people the system had already decided would be discarded and left to die.

It was never popular among people who worked for a living and lived paycheck-to-paycheck...the sort of people(the economic majority in this country)the Democratic Party is supposed to put first, along with those struggling to survive and escape poverty.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

308 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

All three Democratic presidential losses in the Eighties were caused by centrism. [View all] Ken Burch May 2014 OP

If you had stated that centrism is a major contributing factor, I would have agreed. cali May 2014 #1

I really think the most boring candidate loses each time yeoman6987 May 2014 #13

That is also a good point. Ken Burch May 2014 #17

Agreed to a certain extent AleksS May 2014 #39

Some counter examples: salib May 2014 #96

But note those examples were all further in the past than Ken's. n/t nomorenomore08 May 2014 #118

Well, if it is only valid for a particular time frame salib May 2014 #125

But it certainly is a valid argument that none of the candidates mentioned in the OP were all that nomorenomore08 May 2014 #131

Harding and Coolidge were "centrists"? n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #132

Yes, it's hard to ignore the contributions made by dirty Republican tactics. Jackpine Radical May 2014 #32

Those did play a role. Ken Burch May 2014 #35

Gary Hart Worried Them billhicks76 May 2014 #54

I think its insulting to Warren to equate her with Grayson 7962 May 2014 #85

Insulting? billhicks76 May 2014 #129

Warren is a delightful person. She has an infectious enthusiasm and good, JDPriestly May 2014 #151

I agree. Thats why I wouldnt put Grayson in her class. nt 7962 May 2014 #161

Centrism is what causes these candidates to appear boring and dull. fasttense May 2014 #94

About that "hope and change" rhetoric... Maedhros May 2014 #184

Good point. fasttense May 2014 #202

At this point, it's just branding. "Vote for HOPE (tm)" [n/t] Maedhros May 2014 #207

*** L0oniX May 2014 #2

Ever hear the term Reagan Democrats? upaloopa May 2014 #3

it was because they view and continue to view social program as being handouts to minorities JI7 May 2014 #8

Which is really dumb on the Reagan Dems part! FrodosPet May 2014 #135

Those voters could have been won back on labor law reform. Ken Burch May 2014 #11

they would have been won back if the Dems supported a Law preventing BLacks from equal rights JI7 May 2014 #12

No, that wouldn't have been enough for those who were specifically race-obsessed. Ken Burch May 2014 #15

40 percent of Democrats voted against Obama in West Virginia Primary JI7 May 2014 #16

And a candidate that could appeal to those people couldn't possibly be progressive in office Ken Burch May 2014 #21

I was one of those Democrats who voted against Obama in the 2012 West Virginia Primary Lasher May 2014 #116

who did those 40% vote FOR, btw? n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #119

I voted for some prisoner in Texas, if memory serves. Lasher May 2014 #121

Most of those people haven't been Democrats for years, but never bothered to re-register Hippo_Tron May 2014 #287

Please tell me you're being "ironic" there. Ken Burch May 2014 #34

We didn't need to get those voters back, what wich half the electorate sitting on their hands. Scuba May 2014 #75

Mondale never had a chance Art_from_Ark May 2014 #166

I heard VP Mondale do an interview on local radio a couple of years ago. Jenoch May 2014 #190

Why did he even run, then? Ken Burch May 2014 #210

My guess is the DNC thought Mondale provided the best chance at winning. Jenoch May 2014 #212

There were so many other votes the party could have won that year. Ken Burch May 2014 #215

Yeah, I don't buy any of that. Jenoch May 2014 #218

False equivalence. Ken Burch May 2014 #220

Gays for Reagan mississippi62 May 2014 #55

Yep, that's the way I remember it tool. Also, Reagan was a polished speaker, he knew how to speak RKP5637 May 2014 #58

+1 MannyGoldstein May 2014 #4

dukakis lost points after he said he would oppose the death penalty even if his wife was raped and JI7 May 2014 #5

Dukakis was already way behind by then. Ken Burch May 2014 #7

Agreed IkeRepublican May 2014 #122

He also didn't help himself much by driving that tank in a parade . . . markpkessinger May 2014 #187

the 'pugs said that stunt made Dukakis look like "a heavily-armed attack rodent" n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #216

so clinton was more liberal than carter, mondale and dukakis JI7 May 2014 #6

In practice, he wasn't actually much further right. Ken Burch May 2014 #9

They'd have voted for Satan over Pappy Bush Warpy May 2014 #28

The worst of Clinton's pandering to the right . . markpkessinger May 2014 #189

Were you even there? MohRokTah May 2014 #10

I was there. I'm 53. Saw it all go down. Ken Burch May 2014 #14

If that's the way you remember it, there's no talking to you. MohRokTah May 2014 #23

There were no candidates to Mondale or Dukakis' right who'd have done better in '84 or '88. Ken Burch May 2014 #29

Suffice it to say, we are in complete disagreement on this. eom MohRokTah May 2014 #31

Yes it seems you want to blame the liberals and on a liberal message board no less. rhett o rick May 2014 #111

Pretzel logic is often strange. Rex May 2014 #176

Kennedy did not cause Carter's loss dflprincess May 2014 #52

K&R. Well said. Overseas May 2014 #107

And John Anderson Doctor_J May 2014 #109

Carter lost because of severe inflation and Iran, Art_from_Ark May 2014 #167

Actually, Carter mainly lost because he did nothing to reduce unemployment. Ken Burch May 2014 #230

You seem to only be able to make your points by claiming others are ignorant Armstead May 2014 #86

And you make unfounded accusations. MohRokTah May 2014 #183

speaking of unfounded accusations, you assume the OP wasn't there Armstead May 2014 #195

And again, you make an unfounded accusation. MohRokTah May 2014 #200

Oh whatever, your personalized approach is boring Armstead May 2014 #205

As is yours. We are done with any attempts to ever discuss anything. MohRokTah May 2014 #206

Couldn't agree more LordGlenconner May 2014 #171

No. Simply Not True Algernon Moncrieff May 2014 #18

While they are true, none of your points refuted my thesis Ken Burch May 2014 #26

The thesis was that all three Democratic candidiates lost because they went centrist. Algernon Moncrieff May 2014 #91

Good points, plus the media played a big part in painting all of them as weak. Major Hogwash May 2014 #33

The way to have beaten the "weak" tag would have been to be gutsy on the issues. Ken Burch May 2014 #49

Pretty much. joshcryer May 2014 #77

I remember the Dukakis campaign well. pa28 May 2014 #19

I think you nailed it here, he came off as very weak. Americans didn't even 't bother to check bettyellen May 2014 #37

We couldn't win in the eighties because there were just too many jittery whites. RDANGELO May 2014 #20

Abandoning African Americans would have made our party morally worthless. Ken Burch May 2014 #22

these "better angels" found Reagan's Welfare Queen appealing JI7 May 2014 #24

I think to some degree that's what they tried to do. RDANGELO May 2014 #25

We're no longer really the base. TransitJohn May 2014 #27

Nobody to our right is. Ken Burch May 2014 #30

The real progressive who ran lost very, very big treestar May 2014 #36

ANY Dem would have lost big time in the gamed election of '72. Ken Burch May 2014 #38

And yet Al Gore won in 2000, funny how some like to forget all about him. Rex May 2014 #177

I was talking about 1972, not 2000 n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #211

Being old enough to remember 1972 (my first vote was for McGovern) Lydia Leftcoast May 2014 #289

+1. greatauntoftriplets May 2014 #43

NO Dem could have done well against Nixon's dirty tricks. Ken Burch May 2014 #50

This isn't the 60's or the 70's Armstead May 2014 #88

Carter lost also because Reagan and Bush committed treason nakocal May 2014 #40

Message auto-removed Name removed May 2014 #42

That's true. Reagan DID commit treason...as Nixon did in 1968, Ken Burch May 2014 #47

+1! Rhiannon12866 May 2014 #61

That is a succinct and clear analysis of what happened. greatlaurel May 2014 #163

Yep, and Bill Clinton swept to victory in 1996 with an unapologetic socialist platform Nye Bevan May 2014 #41

DOMA wasn't in the platform, neither was NAFTA Ken Burch May 2014 #46

I said 1996, and in that campaign he bragged about signing DOMA Nye Bevan May 2014 #51

Yeah, he bragged about it, but it didn't gain him votes. Ken Burch May 2014 #53

but he still won. wyldwolf May 2014 #194

So what? It wasn't going to cost him votes either. Ken Burch May 2014 #214

so being a centrist in the 80s makes you lose, being one in the 90s makes you win. wyldwolf May 2014 #222

Having no personal appeal, not responding to smears, and campaigning badly Ken Burch May 2014 #224

but you said it was being a centrist. Make up your mind. wyldwolf May 2014 #231

It's both...it's not either/or. Ken Burch May 2014 #238

So for the benefit of the two people still reading this thread... wyldwolf May 2014 #239

An oversimplification, but for those particular campaigns, somewhat accurate. Ken Burch May 2014 #241

So your OP is wrong according to you wyldwolf May 2014 #242

No, and you have no need to be obsessed with proving me "wrong". Ken Burch May 2014 #246

you're proving yourself wrong the further you go down this "appeal vs. policy" path wyldwolf May 2014 #247

No I'm not. Ken Burch May 2014 #249

You're moving the goal posts to fit your theory wyldwolf May 2014 #250

No...I'm including other factors that played contributing roles. Ken Burch May 2014 #255

after your first factors were shown to be bogus. Goal post moving. wyldwolf May 2014 #259

No, my first factors were not shown to be bogus at all Ken Burch May 2014 #260

they were repeatedly, and you had no supportive documented facts wyldwolf May 2014 #265

No, they were not. No one offered any evidence discrediting my argument at all. Ken Burch May 2014 #268

I didn't say you weren't there. wyldwolf May 2014 #269

WE were busy purging bigots from the Party in the 80's Cryptoad May 2014 #44

It's not like we should have continued tolerating the bigots. Ken Burch May 2014 #48

After signing the 1964 Civil Rights Act, LBJ said Democrats had lost the South for a generation. Lasher May 2014 #158

The Democratic Presidential wins in the 90's an 00's were won by obxhead May 2014 #45

Bingo Armstead May 2014 #89

Reagan won because the corporate media waltzed him into office. And kept him there. Zen Democrat May 2014 #56

It was a media sell-job, but nobody's "liberalism" had anything to do with it. Ken Burch May 2014 #57

The same corporate media kept 1-inch headlines counting days the hostages remained in captivity, Overseas May 2014 #110

That was only made possible because Carter had caused the embassy takeover Ken Burch May 2014 #263

And some of those moves were what gave some Dems reasons to defect to the rosy rhetoric Overseas May 2014 #270

True....the problem was, our party wasn't giving those voters any reason to think Ken Burch May 2014 #272

This is a MUST READ!!!!! emsimon33 May 2014 #59

Thanks for the support. Have a nice weekend. n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #60

You wrote nothing so i can agree with that. whistler162 May 2014 #68

And the most liberal in decades, George McGovern, lost 49 states. n/t pnwmom May 2014 #62

The Nixon dirty tricks squad would have made sure ANY Dem went down in flames that year. Ken Burch May 2014 #63

CREEP hand selected McGovern because he would be the easiest to beat. McCamy Taylor May 2014 #128

Hugging the center means not being different than the right once you're in office. Ken Burch May 2014 #130

Back to when the "modern" trend started... PATRICK May 2014 #64

A non-centrist Democrat (or Republican) has never won the presidency. Progressive dog May 2014 #65

Anyone who thinks Ronald Reagan or George W. Bush were centrist is living in cloud cuckoo land Douglas Carpenter May 2014 #66

The reality is that only centrists (or candidates able to Progressive dog May 2014 #69

Who ever is perceived as the mostist centralist Cryptoad May 2014 #70

Reagan wasn't perceived as "more centrist" than Carter or Mondale. Ken Burch May 2014 #105

He sure was in enough states for him to win...... Cryptoad May 2014 #117

Wrong. The votes are on the left, but staying home as they have no candidate representing them. Scuba May 2014 #76

If they stay home they don't count, Progressive dog May 2014 #169

If we give them no reasons to go vote, we don't count. Scuba May 2014 #170

No, I vote, I count Progressive dog May 2014 #172

You can't expect people to vote in years where no candidate cares about their issues Ken Burch May 2014 #227

That's how to win elections, refuse to Progressive dog May 2014 #233

We don't have to nominate people who are further away from us Ken Burch May 2014 #237

Obama was nominted and in 2008 Progressive dog May 2014 #252

I didn't say I believe Obama was a Republican. Ken Burch May 2014 #256

" Jimmy Carter ran for re-election on an essentially moderate Republican record.." Progressive dog May 2014 #257

And I was talking there about Carter, not Obama. Ken Burch May 2014 #261

Okay so Carter was a Republican because he supported the Shah Progressive dog May 2014 #266

He didn't send in troops, but he did give his verbal and diplomatic support to him til the end. Ken Burch May 2014 #267

Pahlevi was in power long before Carter Progressive dog May 2014 #295

I know that. But the Iranian people were trying to remove him and Carter wanted him to stay on. Ken Burch May 2014 #298

so Kucinich was not on the Left ? did Elizabeth warren get much higher voters than Obama, or is she JI7 May 2014 #192

I worked on the Kucinich campaign in Minnesota Lydia Leftcoast May 2014 #290

I would replace "centrist" with moderate Armstead May 2014 #90

Centrist simply means to be in the Progressive dog May 2014 #173

Technically yes -- in modern reality no Armstead May 2014 #174

The Merriam Webster still has missed Progressive dog May 2014 #175

Okay if you want to play word games.... Armstead May 2014 #179

Word games are when what the OP believes to be centrist Progressive dog May 2014 #180

Now you have me totaly confused,,, Armstead May 2014 #181

The point is easy, the OP claims Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis lost Progressive dog May 2014 #182

The OP ws making a more nuaned argument rather than your one phrase summary Armstead May 2014 #185

Actually the OP was reaching an admittedly wrong conclusion. Progressive dog May 2014 #191

obviously you are welcome to disagree with his premise Armstead May 2014 #196

When use changes, dictionaries change Progressive dog May 2014 #197

you're back to word games Armstead May 2014 #198

Word games would be when someone will not acknowledge Progressive dog May 2014 #199

It is not personal word definition...It is commonly used. Armstead May 2014 #203

Word definitions are in the dictionary Progressive dog May 2014 #208

Whatever Armstead May 2014 #209

It's not an "admittedly wrong conclusion". I didn't admit anything of the kind. Ken Burch May 2014 #226

Words are normally intended to communicate Progressive dog May 2014 #229

LBJ won by realizing the country had moved left in 1964 Ken Burch May 2014 #234

Right for once, the country moved left, Progressive dog May 2014 #253

Tell that to FDR in 1936, or LBJ in 1964, or Obama in 2008 Ken Burch May 2014 #102

All Obama had to do in 2008 was beat Hillary in the pirmary. Lasher May 2014 #159

They were all centrists and they ran on a centrist platform. Progressive dog May 2014 #168

FDR was NO centrist in 1936 Ken Burch May 2014 #219

Yes, they were centrist, by the dictionary definition, Progressive dog May 2014 #223

Al Gore won in 2000. Rex May 2014 #178

No they weren't! whistler162 May 2014 #67

Has there been a successful Democratic candidate since FDR whom you would not call centrist? muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #71

we can debate FDR all day, but the fact remains progressive of the day hated him, too. wyldwolf May 2014 #84

Not the FDR who denounced "economic royalists" and "malefactors of great wealth" Ken Burch May 2014 #103

You're defending THIS guy? wyldwolf May 2014 #134

You can defend the progressive parts of FDR without defending those things. Ken Burch May 2014 #139

Just as you can with all the Democrats you regularly trash on DU wyldwolf May 2014 #141

I don't trash anyone. I just speak out on the issues. Ken Burch May 2014 #148

You trashed three presidential nominees with your bogus OP wyldwolf May 2014 #154

I didn't trash them. In fact I voted for ALL of them(did you?) Ken Burch May 2014 #217

Of course you trashed them - unless you now believe being a centrist is a good thing wyldwolf May 2014 #221

I believe running a good campaign is a good thing. Ken Burch May 2014 #225

so do I. Clinton ran a good campaign twice - on centrist policies. wyldwolf May 2014 #232

He ran a good campaign and won on personal appeal. Ken Burch May 2014 #235

if Carter, Mondale and Dukakis had had that animal magnetism, they would have won? wyldwolf May 2014 #236

Actually, yes. Ken Burch May 2014 #240

so you admit your OP is wrong. According to you... wyldwolf May 2014 #243

No, I don't Ken Burch May 2014 #244

OH - the 80s were just different. LOL wyldwolf May 2014 #245

True mvd May 2014 #144

du rec. xchrom May 2014 #72

I think the problem with the Democratic Party nyabingi May 2014 #73

Demographics indicate we don't need those whites back treestar May 2014 #80

That's especially true now and I think nyabingi May 2014 #114

I remember when maindawg May 2014 #74

Acting like a Republican is not going to peel off votes of the mythical moderate Republican .... Scuba May 2014 #78

silly argument regurgitated over and over and over and over and... wyldwolf May 2014 #79

I offered corraborative evidence. Ken Burch May 2014 #104

agree they were too RW and it made them look bad, but I think the country was having a conservative bettyellen May 2014 #115

that's how you remember it wyldwolf May 2014 #133

What I said was that those were their positions Ken Burch May 2014 #137

In other words, after everything you've wrote, you have ZERO supportive evidence of your positions. wyldwolf May 2014 #140

53% is cratering. That means half the voters didn't vote. Ken Burch May 2014 #146

But we're not discussing 1960. We're discussing the 1980s, where turnout was consistent wyldwolf May 2014 #147

flatlining is essentially the same thing. Ken Burch May 2014 #149

It's completely different. You can't change word definitions for your needs. wyldwolf May 2014 #153

Sadly true mythology May 2014 #248

1980, ..... the only presidential election I didn't go to the polls. meti57b May 2014 #81

"Why?" Because the moneyed interests can't lose when both party candidates are beholden NorthCarolina May 2014 #82

Funny. Thats the same thing the right says about their recent losses. Not "conservative enough". 7962 May 2014 #83

That doesn't discredit the argument. Ken Burch May 2014 #124

Republicans make the same argument... brooklynite May 2014 #87

Yup, they do. Some of our people has the dome flavor of delusion. NT Adrahil May 2014 #155

Never mind the media collusion, Repubs dealing with Iran to fuck Carter, and such... riqster May 2014 #92

An ideology and $13 will get you across the GWB. Walk away May 2014 #93

Centrism is tantamount to doing absolutely nothing, status quo, laziness at best, why bother mother earth May 2014 #95

Right now, the Republicans are radical reactionaries trying to hasten our transition to Empire. Maedhros May 2014 #186

We Followed The Republicans Rightward colsohlibgal May 2014 #97

They feared the media more than they believed the polls. CrispyQ May 2014 #98

I sure hope we're on the road to recovery and beginning to see the good sense of liberal/progressive gtar100 May 2014 #99

I Agree With The Premise supercats May 2014 #100

The only election the Democrats lost because of centrism was 1980 and that was due to a primary. Drunken Irishman May 2014 #101

Facts wyldwolf May 2014 #136

My OP was full of facts. Ken Burch May 2014 #142

"And Carter was always going to lose once the hostage thing happened." wyldwolf May 2014 #143

I just demonstrated how Carter's conservative policy on Iran caused the embassy takeover Ken Burch May 2014 #150

But you didn't prove that policy caused his defeat wyldwolf May 2014 #152

What, you don't think the Iran hostage crisis caused Carter's defeat in 1980? Lasher May 2014 #160

that isn't what the OP is arguing wyldwolf May 2014 #164

Lowering inflation meant deliberately increasing unemployment Ken Burch May 2014 #271

which is beside the point. Lowering inflation was a popular move. It wasn't a 'centrist policy.' wyldwolf May 2014 #274

He lost because unemployment went up. Unemployment goes up when you put low inflation first. Ken Burch May 2014 #275

But that isn't a centrist policy wyldwolf May 2014 #276

putting low inflation before full employment isn't centrist? Ken Burch May 2014 #279

No. There is no proof of that... wyldwolf May 2014 #286

The massive grassroots demand that Teddy, with all his flaws, should challenge Carter for the nom Ken Burch May 2014 #291

Really? Show me evidence of that. wyldwolf May 2014 #292

In past threads, I showed you polls and you simply dismissed them. Ken Burch May 2014 #293

So NOW your line is you HAVE shown polls. LOL wyldwolf May 2014 #294

I said in past threads, not this one. Ken Burch May 2014 #296

Show us those threads. Or else that's just one more thing you've made up. wyldwolf May 2014 #297

That goes back to earlier versions of DU. And who's this "us"? you only speak for yourself. Ken Burch May 2014 #299

excuses excuses. No threads. No polls. Just your imagination. wyldwolf May 2014 #300

No, the reality that occurred. Ken Burch May 2014 #301

... in your imagination wyldwolf Jun 2014 #302

How old were you at the time? Ken Burch Jun 2014 #303

irrelevant. What your OP says runs counter to every political science and historical reference wyldwolf Jun 2014 #304

My OP doesn't run counter to every political science and historical reference. Ken Burch Jun 2014 #305

well, everyone except yours wyldwolf Jun 2014 #306

I don't need to. Read history for yourself for once...and not just the approved corporate version. Ken Burch Jun 2014 #307

History? What you've giving is more like 'alternate history' - an exercise in what ifs. wyldwolf Jun 2014 #308

It's not about polling data. Ken Burch May 2014 #254

yeah, it's about that warm truthiness you feel in your gut. wyldwolf May 2014 #258

It's about cause and effect Ken Burch May 2014 #262

based on nothing but your imagination - certainly no documented evidence. wyldwolf May 2014 #264

Democratic voters put full employment as the first economic priority Ken Burch May 2014 #281

No they didn't wyldwolf May 2014 #285

As another post indicated BootinUp May 2014 #204

K&R. Well said. I remember it happening. Overseas May 2014 #106

then how to you explain the losses of McCarthy and McGovern? n/t Hamlette May 2014 #108

Eugene McCarthy was screwed over by the nominating process. Ken Burch May 2014 #120

Want to light up the Democratic Party, bvar22 May 2014 #112

Someone once said that 47of74 May 2014 #113

It was Truman who said that, IIRC. n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #123

Correct.. butterfly77 May 2014 #126

"Centrism"? Is that the new word for Hostages for Votes? McCamy Taylor May 2014 #127

You are spot on. greatlaurel May 2014 #162

thank you. wyldwolf May 2014 #165

Not true. nt UTUSN May 2014 #138

Big K&R mvd May 2014 #145

This is total unadulterated nonsense. greatlaurel May 2014 #156

I think you know that this country, at least the lower classes, will not survive 8 more years rhett o rick May 2014 #188

Apparantly, former independent and one-time GOP supporter Elizabeth Warren thinks Hillary should run Algernon Moncrieff May 2014 #213

K&R raouldukelives May 2014 #157

K&R woo me with science May 2014 #193

k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t Laelth May 2014 #201

Not how politics works. Candidates are Party Centric for Primaries, Nation Centric for Generals. nt TheBlackAdder May 2014 #228

So if Mondale would have driven through poor neighborhoods BeyondGeography May 2014 #251

I think you are trying to hard to make an argument based on a "correlation/causality" premise. phleshdef May 2014 #273

Was George McGovern a centrist or Michael Dukakis? Gee, I can pick any decade to fit a premise lostincalifornia May 2014 #277

McGovern wasn't a centrist but a campaign run against the Nixon dirty tricks team Ken Burch May 2014 #278

That was my point, McGovern was a liberal and lost big time regardless of nixon's dirty tricks lostincalifornia May 2014 #283

What does it matter what McGovern was? 1972 was an un-winnable election Hippo_Tron May 2014 #282

My point was at that time a liberal was not going to win, and yes I am proud to say I voted for lostincalifornia May 2014 #284

Two of those three losses were caused by factors entirely beyond anyone's control Hippo_Tron May 2014 #280

So will number four. Jakes Progress May 2014 #288