General Discussion

thesquanderer

(12,923 posts)

116. It's a subtle distinction

Sun Apr 1, 2012, 01:11 PM

Apr 2012

There are lots of things that we are told are not allowed. But to carry the OP's argument to its extreme, *everything* is allowed... as long as you are willing to face the penalty.

You don't have to buy insurance. But if you don't, you will have to pay a penalty. (Whether it is a tax or a fine is some of what is being debated in the court... see http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/03/live-blog-obamacare-challenged-at-the-supreme-court/ )

You don't have to put money in the parking meter. But unless you do, you will get a ticket (at least in New York, it's pretty much a given!). You don't have to pay the ticket. But if you don't, there can be even more unpleasant consequences. So, do you or do you not have to put money in the meter? Every action (or inaction) is okay, if you are willing to accept the consequences. Can you leave the scene of an accident? No. Well, maybe yes, if you are willing to accept the consequences.

So I think that saying that the state isn't "forcing" you to buy insurance is technically true, but only to the extent that state can't force you to do anything, short of the point of putting you in shackles where you can be physically forced. Other than that, any time the state says you must or must not do something, it's always a choice of benefit versus consequences. So whether or not you are literally being forced is a semantic argument.

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It time to put an end to the GOP talking point repeated here on DU again and again. [View all] rgbecker Apr 2012 OP

buy insurance or be fined. KG Apr 2012 #1

I like it...I support the mandate. FarPoint Apr 2012 #2

Your post is an oxymoron Doctor_J Apr 2012 #21

If you desire discussion then do so. FarPoint Apr 2012 #35

Doctor J's reply was in no manner "aggressive and insulting". xtraxritical Apr 2012 #70

I am entitled FarPoint Apr 2012 #75

Yes you are entitled to your opinion, you are even entitled to both of them. n/t A Simple Game Apr 2012 #91

So, you join the game of harassment as well? FarPoint Apr 2012 #130

Agreeing with you is harassment? If you say so. A Simple Game Apr 2012 #146

heh heh heh progressoid Apr 2012 #200

LOL Skittles Apr 2012 #206

What is he wrong about? rgbecker Apr 2012 #215

lol Skittles Apr 2012 #249

How was his question an insult or agressive? Javaman Apr 2012 #222

Looks like the doublespeak came unraveled for a minute there. n/t pa28 Apr 2012 #98

The truth is, although the word "Mandate" is not in the ACA, rgbecker Apr 2012 #133

A tax penalty is not forcing you to buy health insurance Zalatix Apr 2012 #135

Pay the fine and still not get insurance... rgbecker Apr 2012 #137

Supposing you are a family barely making it on the income you have. You pay your taxes, sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #180

Well said. And if there are fines to be paid - they SHOULD be used to defray unpaid medical costs. cyberpj Apr 2012 #219

I did notice... Cheviteau Apr 2012 #232

Simple, you get a tax credit. stevenleser Apr 2012 #237

"The Mandate" is simply the term that is used for the provision in question... reACTIONary Apr 2012 #191

So did the Heritage Foundation, who came up with this idea. Zalatix Apr 2012 #61

It's the best we could get through Congress, and it's already started to bend the cost curve down pnwmom Apr 2012 #121

sounds ok to me. just out of curiosity, do you have health insurance? cali Apr 2012 #6

We do. and agree on that point. better with the bill than without for some people. BUT the bill robinlynne Apr 2012 #176

Paying a fine and being forced to buy insurance are two very different things. rgbecker Apr 2012 #11

It's a subtle distinction thesquanderer Apr 2012 #116

If the ACA was making people "buy" insurance... rgbecker Apr 2012 #131

You are correct. nt BOHICA12 Apr 2012 #145

What is the fine for posession or for DUI? about the smae, right? actually probably less. robinlynne Apr 2012 #177

"Do this or face legal sanction" = "you are forced to do this." Period. (nt) Posteritatis Apr 2012 #211

You don't buy insurance and go to the emergency room, I get fined... W T F Apr 2012 #18

WTF are you talking about? appleannie1 Apr 2012 #26

When the uninsured use the ER for medical care, we ALL pay for it MinisterMelinda Apr 2012 #45

I have news for you. When the insured use the ER for medical care EFerrari Apr 2012 #48

"And we will continue to pay for it if this plan is implemented." Link? SunSeeker Apr 2012 #87

This bill will help many low-income families pay for health insurance. JDPriestly Apr 2012 #102

It will help single men like myself. zinnisking Apr 2012 #126

Insured folks are far more likely to see their doctor rather than go to the ER... markpkessinger Apr 2012 #114

MA pays 15% more per capita above the national average EFerrari Apr 2012 #216

Exactly. Welcome to DU. cbayer Apr 2012 #52

How? LACarMan Apr 2012 #84

But if you couldn't afford to make payments on the emergency room visit A Simple Game Apr 2012 #108

The government makes up the deficit now. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #168

I've never heard of that. Telly Savalas Apr 2012 #193

Here: girl gone mad Apr 2012 #204

that is only true if the uninsured don't pay their medical bill from the ER hfojvt Apr 2012 #105

ER would be OK for trauma, but... levp Apr 2012 #111

A $1,000 bill from an ER is VERY optimistic! n/t markpkessinger Apr 2012 #117

mine was "only" $800 hfojvt Apr 2012 #125

This kind of thinking GirlinContempt Apr 2012 #207

$1000 if the worse thing that happened to people was a broken arm and needing stitches. SmellyFeet Apr 2012 #221

That calls for a link. Please provide proof that you have been fined when someone else TheKentuckian Apr 2012 #112

Who knows what these people are arguing for anymore, it is all semantic contortions at this point. Dragonfli Apr 2012 #259

If you are under certain income nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #100

buy a house or you can't deduct the mortgage interest...etc, etc... Sancho Apr 2012 #107

Wait, levp Apr 2012 #113

I rent. That means I pay a tax penalty Recursion Apr 2012 #187

+1. Or "give to charity or don't get a tax break!" That's real tyranny. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2012 #152

No one is penalized for not purchasing a home. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #171

I am being penalized for not purchasing a home Recursion Apr 2012 #188

Your landlord probably takes the deduction which lowers your rent. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #189

Nope. The building is paid off. (nt) Recursion Apr 2012 #192

Health care isn't a lipstick. It's a necessity. pnwmom Apr 2012 #120

Health care, maybe. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #169

In the U.S., insurance is a necessity. Medicare for all couldn't have gotten pnwmom Apr 2012 #184

Insurance is not a necessity. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #190

Where? GirlinContempt Apr 2012 #208

Ah, another ignorant one. SmellyFeet Apr 2012 #223

gee, if an uninsured person goes to the emergency room, who do you think pays for it now? still_one Apr 2012 #212

and repeating the 'fine' lie over and over bowens43 Apr 2012 #236

Here's hoping people will understand that. freshwest Apr 2012 #3

I agree with you tibbiit Apr 2012 #4

I just ingore threads to repeat TP ffr Apr 2012 #33

If we're not buying insurance, then what is our $447 billion dollars buying, exactly? EFerrari Apr 2012 #5

so it doesn't matter enough to you that if the ACA is overturned cali Apr 2012 #7

You go ahead and trust the insurance industry to come through, cali. EFerrari Apr 2012 #44

Do you know that Obamacare is also regulating the ins. industry to make them more trustworthy? FarLeftFist Apr 2012 #51

! KG Apr 2012 #53

So goes the fame. I remain skeptical that this bunch of criminals EFerrari Apr 2012 #64

A predatory cartel, with regulation still on the state level, with virtually no enforcement budget, TheKentuckian Apr 2012 #132

I suggest that those who have blind faith in our governments capability unapatriciated Apr 2012 #230

thanks very much! Voice for Peace Apr 2012 #8

Buy insurance or pay a penalty. I suppose you could call it "incentive". Arkansas Granny Apr 2012 #9

The penalty is FAR lower than the cost of an individual premium . . . markpkessinger Apr 2012 #119

For now. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #173

What? You're telling me if you defraud the insurance company they won't pay? rgbecker Apr 2012 #196

It's hard not to feel resentful of people who have good insurance, mandated by the govt., pnwmom Apr 2012 #122

What's changed? adam in oregon Apr 2012 #227

You need to check out the facts before you decide this would be unaffordable for you. pnwmom Apr 2012 #241

Assume the worst. adam in oregon Apr 2012 #245

If you do you're just fear mongering. The new law is nothing like COBRA. n/t pnwmom Apr 2012 #250

Can't convince people of something they don't want to believe NNN0LHI Apr 2012 #10

May not work, but people need some talking points of their own. rgbecker Apr 2012 #13

Democrats need a Karl Rove type that's for sure. xtraxritical Apr 2012 #77

Completely off topic but the crying Indian you reference wasn't even LibDemAlways Apr 2012 #15

Should have been here the day that little factoid was posted NNN0LHI Apr 2012 #16

great post. barbtries Apr 2012 #12

Were you doing that 'Jedi mind trick' hand wave thing as you typed that? Marr Apr 2012 #14

Call it Republican legislation if you can find one Republican who supports it. rgbecker Apr 2012 #19

Can I go back a few short years? Marr Apr 2012 #24

I think the GOP has opted to just lie and hope the lies will be repeated by freedom lovin Democrats. rgbecker Apr 2012 #37

And the EPA was signed into law by Nixon jberryhill Apr 2012 #235

The plan is not based around a mandate to purchase for-profit insurance Orangepeel Apr 2012 #36

Right on. rgbecker Apr 2012 #62

You're wrong. Marr Apr 2012 #67

No I'm not wrong. CareFirst is not for profit Orangepeel Apr 2012 #93

CareFirst is a network not a plan, if you want benefits they tell you to call your plan TheKentuckian Apr 2012 #134

Non-profit ownership does not guarantee accountability. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #175

Hawai'i's dominant insurer is nonprofit KamaAina Apr 2012 #244

Where are you? KamaAina Apr 2012 #243

for profit marshall gaines Apr 2012 #43

Luckily the Jedi mind trick does not work on insect type sentient species Dragonfli Apr 2012 #144

Yeah, it's one of those "optional mandates". JoeyT Apr 2012 #17

I'm still waiting with my checkbook. rgbecker Apr 2012 #23

Then you'd better pay that fine if you don't get insurance. JoeyT Apr 2012 #94

+1 Poll_Blind Apr 2012 #30

Where in the law does it say if you don't pay the fine you go to jail? kestrel91316 Apr 2012 #74

People have gone to jail rudycantfail Apr 2012 #198

Of course you go to jail if you don't pay taxes!! riderinthestorm Apr 2012 #199

Actually, unless you defraud the government, there is virtually no possibility of jail time. rgbecker Apr 2012 #217

YUP ... its actually similar to the home mortgage deduction. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #20

Why IS health care interstate commerce? That's part of the problem, not the solution. saras Apr 2012 #34

Your point is irrelevant to the question at hand. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #148

because you can get sick in any State. quaker bill Apr 2012 #179

It's similar to the home mortgage deduction, except completely different. hughee99 Apr 2012 #95

+1 TheKentuckian Apr 2012 #136

Stir, Stir, Stir. rgbecker Apr 2012 #139

+1 JoePhilly Apr 2012 #147

"The banking industry is interstate commerce but congress can't force everyone to keep their money Dragonfli Apr 2012 #149

If you keep your money in a bank, the government taxes your dividends. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #151

neat post, too bad it has nothing at all to do with what I posted /nt Dragonfli Apr 2012 #154

Ok ... try this ... JoePhilly Apr 2012 #172

Maybe all they need is for the SCOTUS to find that the individual mandate is OK. freedom fighter jh Apr 2012 #153

If they overturn it, it just a "small step" to say that the government can't force you to JoePhilly Apr 2012 #157

There's a difference. freedom fighter jh Apr 2012 #162

Not really. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #167

Look, even the administration disagrees with you on this one.. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #183

Might I suggest a new law "The Affordable Transactions Act" Dragonfli Apr 2012 #159

If you were good at this ... you'd indicate which parts of the Constitution prevent JoePhilly Apr 2012 #170

If you were good at this YOU WOULD DO THAT, it was my proposal, why would I be Dragonfli Apr 2012 #185

Riiiight GirlinContempt Apr 2012 #209

But I think your proposal was Constitutional. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #248

The point that just keeps flying way over you head, what really matters Dragonfli Apr 2012 #254

Actually, the OP is about the Constitutionality of the law. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #256

Pay attention to what I responded to, hint, it wasn't the OP. And Dragonfli Apr 2012 #257

First, if no one buys insurance everyone's tax does go up, no? JoePhilly Apr 2012 #150

I don't need to keep my money in a bank to "participate" in the banking industry either. hughee99 Apr 2012 #155

Can you tell me what specific limits you see in the commerce clause? JoePhilly Apr 2012 #156

I would certinly not consider forcing everyone to engage in interstate commerce hughee99 Apr 2012 #160

Sure ... but as I said earlier, you can not be forced to participate in something JoePhilly Apr 2012 #163

So what happens if I don't get hit by a car? hughee99 Apr 2012 #178

Which freedoms will it cost us? rgbecker Apr 2012 #195

I was thinking about the danger of setting a legal precedent hughee99 Apr 2012 #242

"And, if you have no insurance your treatment costs are passed on to everyone else." girl gone mad Apr 2012 #203

You have still done nothing to debate the CONSTITUTIONALITY of the bill. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #247

The hospital's loss got passed on to the government.. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #251

You are wrong. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #252

Insurers are still free to remove sick people using the fraud provisions. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #253

Nicely put. rgbecker Apr 2012 #194

forced commerce adam in oregon Apr 2012 #228

Everyone already participates in the health care market. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #260

Who determins who can afford health insurance? 1monster Apr 2012 #22

That's all well and fine when you have a cold or a rash Tobin S. Apr 2012 #28

If the insurance companies can't provide coverage for 8.5% of income.... rgbecker Apr 2012 #29

Subsidies will be given for families up to 400% of the poverty level dragonlady Apr 2012 #40

An 8.5% premium is one quarter the cost of what we have been offered for standard 80/20 1monster Apr 2012 #55

Is your state working under the Obamacare rules yet? rgbecker Apr 2012 #66

Yes, it will be on a sliding scale. subterranean Apr 2012 #59

For the sake of argument, let's say that's true. Marr Apr 2012 #76

I have been to too many funerals of people that did not have HC. I like the plan. Granted appleannie1 Apr 2012 #25

Bullshit it doesn't. Either you buy health insurance or you're fined. nt Poll_Blind Apr 2012 #27

Still waiting to hear how paying a fine is the same a buying insurance. rgbecker Apr 2012 #46

That's because nobody claimed that paying a fine is the same as buying insurance. Just you. nt Poll_Blind Apr 2012 #50

...huh? Marr Apr 2012 #65

Read it again. rgbecker Apr 2012 #71

The *law* says you will be *fined*. Marr Apr 2012 #80

So your claim is that the law says Doctor_J Apr 2012 #182

It's NOT the same Maven Apr 2012 #186

believe marshall gaines Apr 2012 #31

Thank you so VERY MUCH!!! Gman Apr 2012 #32

Guaranteed Health Care In Iraq - But Not For You MinisterMelinda Apr 2012 #38

Wolfowitz said the whole thing was going to be paid for with Iraqi oil! rgbecker Apr 2012 #49

The Ultimate Gift to Insurance Corporations earthside Apr 2012 #39

Long term strategy denvine Apr 2012 #41

Mandate: obxhead Apr 2012 #42

Sorry, Big difference. It is not breaking the law to not buy insurance. rgbecker Apr 2012 #57

The mandate is part of a law. obxhead Apr 2012 #69

You could get work at Fox News. rgbecker Apr 2012 #78

You make a hell of a lot of accusations for someone who's wrong all the time. Marr Apr 2012 #82

i was wondering when the insults would start. KG Apr 2012 #85

"No where in the ACA is there a requirement that you buy insurance." obxhead Apr 2012 #92

Fox News???? Really, when you are redefining the entire legal system in order to make a stupid claim TheKentuckian Apr 2012 #141

So now we buy into the GOP talking point that the tax system is a system of penalties. rgbecker Apr 2012 #143

Sure don't. You are the one saying taxes and penalties are the same thing. TheKentuckian Apr 2012 #224

Shhh. We're trying to create our own reality here. n/t pa28 Apr 2012 #104

Apparently. nt obxhead Apr 2012 #109

I do believe there are R's in DU Phlem Apr 2012 #47

Welcome to the new DU! nt woo me with science Apr 2012 #101

And laws against murder don't FORCE you to not murder, right? MNBrewer Apr 2012 #54

either buy insurance or get fined.. am I wrong? mdmc Apr 2012 #56

no, you're not wrong, tho you will be informed that you are. KG Apr 2012 #63

thanks for the reply KG mdmc Apr 2012 #72

You're right, but you still won't have insurance. rgbecker Apr 2012 #79

I have health insurance through my employer mdmc Apr 2012 #83

Good luck rgbecker. This thread has turned into one where almost no one gets your point. SmellyFeet Apr 2012 #225

What do all the relevant players want in terms of health care? tularetom Apr 2012 #58

This is the most accurate assessment to date. Thanks. canoeist52 Apr 2012 #89

I had to come back. earthside Apr 2012 #96

Obamacare? tooeyeten Apr 2012 #60

Obama says he likes it: Obama Cares rgbecker Apr 2012 #81

But it is not "affordable" 1monster Apr 2012 #97

if we what called it what it is it would be "Affordable Insurance Act" and the affordable is not Dragonfli Apr 2012 #164

totally disengenuous.... mike_c Apr 2012 #68

Nice analogy if it were true. There are a lot more penalties to breaking traffic laws. rgbecker Apr 2012 #88

Now when we talk about war, we're really talkin' about peace. Marr Apr 2012 #73

Both parties think 1984 was a manual it would seem Dragonfli Apr 2012 #165

What, in your mind, would constitute "forcing one to buy health insurance?" ChadwickHenryWard Apr 2012 #86

Well there are a lot of options. rgbecker Apr 2012 #90

Why didn't they characterize it as.... Nye Bevan Apr 2012 #99

Are you proposing these together or as an either-or? rgbecker Apr 2012 #118

Mandate or Tax??? SoutherDem Apr 2012 #103

What we call it isn't important but what it is and how it is codified. TheKentuckian Apr 2012 #142

Your post is one of the most Orwellian speak I have ever seen on DU former9thward Apr 2012 #106

Look, this speeding analogy doesn't have traction. rgbecker Apr 2012 #123

I'm an extremely high cost Medicare / Medicaid client. pinto Apr 2012 #110

In White House language it's the "personal responsibility provision". pa28 Apr 2012 #115

Let's look at it another way kudzu22 Apr 2012 #124

That's a good one! rgbecker Apr 2012 #127

whatever you want to call it, its shit quinnox Apr 2012 #128

How many of the 125 respondees in this thread currently don't carry insurance frazzled Apr 2012 #129

Good question. SmellyFeet Apr 2012 #229

Like KG said in their response number one: truedelphi Apr 2012 #138

It's still a shit plan. n/t bluedigger Apr 2012 #140

It also relies on discriminatory tax law language. Bluenorthwest Apr 2012 #158

Mandated insurance simplesimon Apr 2012 #161

"the GOP talking point repeated here on DU again and again" Just one?? n/t retread Apr 2012 #166

the fine is higher than the fine for drug posession or dirivng under the influence. robinlynne Apr 2012 #174

And I thought our Cirque du Soleil folks were flexible. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #181

Another GOP talking point that you could put an end to..... radarluv Apr 2012 #197

The problem is that in America, we have health insurance first and health care second. progressoid Apr 2012 #201

Some people support Obamacare because Puzzledtraveller Apr 2012 #202

Double taxation busteddrum Apr 2012 #205

The Heritage Foundation thanks you for your support of their brainchild. Zalatix Apr 2012 #210

The Heritage Foundation sucks. rgbecker Apr 2012 #218

They invented the individual mandate in 1989, and supported it publicly for years. They only spoke HiPointDem Apr 2012 #220

Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is the correct name for the law GreydeeThos Apr 2012 #213

Obama has embraced "Obamacare", People know what it means..... rgbecker Apr 2012 #214

It's a penalty not a tax or so said the Obama administration. dkf Apr 2012 #226

I was against the Individual Mandate and Still Against it... Xyzse Apr 2012 #231

Nice post, Zeke. AzDar Apr 2012 #233

Unrec...so, you don't buy it and you get fined... joeybee12 Apr 2012 #234

You are just not getting the Olympic level semantic contortion or you would know Dragonfli Apr 2012 #258

Uhhhh, this is DU you're trying to peddle that crap to. Hell Hath No Fury Apr 2012 #238

Great picture.... rgbecker Apr 2012 #246

It’s Not an Individual Mandate—It’s an Individual Penalty DennisBrault Apr 2012 #239

States do this with auto insurance - TBF Apr 2012 #255

there was more demonization of it when Obama was against it Enrique Apr 2012 #240