General Discussion

Armstead

(47,803 posts)

31. Let me make this simple...

Mon Jun 2, 2014, 09:30 PM

Jun 2014

I had mixed feelings about them. Still do. As i said up top, I basically think what they did was helpful, because we need to get the intrusiveness into the open.

If the nature of this whole sorry debate since it happened had actually been about how much of what they did was appropriate or not, based on issues like privacy versus collective security, i would have expressed those mixed feelings in that context.

But when it descended into calling them demeaning names, arguing about Greenwald's sexual orientation, dismissing them because the have had libertarian leanings...etc,

Well that made me start to defend them more adamantly than i might have otherwise.

My views didn't change, but I got angrier about the blockheaded attacks on them than the merits of the issue.

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I was never crazy about Greenwald, and don't care for Snowden. But some of you make me a fanboy [View all] Armstead Jun 2014 OP

So ProSense Jun 2014 #1

Yep..You also missed when i said.... Armstead Jun 2014 #3

Actually, ProSense Jun 2014 #4

I don't care about "getting in good" with anyone here Armstead Jun 2014 #11

LOL! ProSense Jun 2014 #36

Pink fluffy bunnies Armstead Jun 2014 #38

I like your style. Demit Jun 2014 #90

LOL! ProSense Jun 2014 #107

Innumerate Android3.14 Jun 2014 #157

:) AllyCat Jun 2014 #101

I don't know if you were setting a trap with your OP but if you were A Simple Game Jun 2014 #200

Good concise analysis. The 'bots will still try to counter... erronis Jun 2014 #233

I think you actually are smart enough to understand, G_j Jun 2014 #115

LOL! ProSense Jun 2014 #116

is that all you got? G_j Jun 2014 #117

Well, ProSense Jun 2014 #119

the OP did not do that G_j Jun 2014 #120

You didn't endorse the sockpuppet theory? ProSense Jun 2014 #122

where? G_j Jun 2014 #127

I agree with this.... Dorian Gray Jun 2014 #158

You really don't understand, I thought you were just being facetious. You didn't wonder why the more sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #133

You all ProSense Jun 2014 #134

You all? I have never personally attacked people critical of Greenwald or Snowden. sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #136

Hear Hear! Generic Other Jun 2014 #174

Your comment ProSense Jun 2014 #178

Criticism, or gossip column inches? LanternWaste Jun 2014 #163

No One Is Perfect billhicks76 Jun 2014 #45

I haven't seen any/many NSA defenders here on DU ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #70

Are a You Kidding? billhicks76 Jun 2014 #81

No, I'm not kidding ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #99

yep... this Leme Jun 2014 #77

John Dillinger did shine a light on how much money banks had.... George II Jun 2014 #103

Don't you think that Snowden/Greenwald could have raised the issue without karynnj Jun 2014 #185

You may be right -- The problem is.... Armstead Jun 2014 #187

Personalized on both sides karynnj Jun 2014 #189

In other words, you were referring to her. lark Jun 2014 #205

In other words... Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #2

Yeah...exactly Armstead Jun 2014 #7

I have noticed that it's a pretty sure shot that Whisp Jun 2014 #10

Thats a wonderful generalization Armstead Jun 2014 #12

It goes a little deeper than that but I'm not in a school marm mood. n/t Whisp Jun 2014 #14

Goes much deeper than that, but no need to go round the block on it here Armstead Jun 2014 #44

I have noticed that also Andy823 Jun 2014 #15

Let me make this simple... Armstead Jun 2014 #31

Would you share your opinions of the President here? sheshe2 Jun 2014 #102

I've shared my opinions of him many times (too many for some probably) Armstead Jun 2014 #105

I did not bite my nails at all on either election night. sheshe2 Jun 2014 #113

Oh puleeze Armstead Jun 2014 #126

well said marions ghost Jun 2014 #155

.... madfloridian Jun 2014 #211

+1. NRaleighLiberal Jun 2014 #224

People like you paint ANY criticism as an attack. alarimer Jun 2014 #108

People like me!? sheshe2 Jun 2014 #128

It could be people like you. Some Democrats surely are authoritarian. ozone_man Jun 2014 #217

Good post, and it WAS a 'whole different story' when the spying was exposed when Bush occupied the sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #188

Great points, Andy. n/t Whisp Jun 2014 #51

FOX Support NSA Most billhicks76 Jun 2014 #53

Total Bunk billhicks76 Jun 2014 #50

could you say that again, I wasn't paying attention. Whisp Jun 2014 #54

I support all liberal causes...NSA/CIA ain't one of them billhicks76 Jun 2014 #58

That is pure BS and an insult to fellow members of DU Mojorabbit Jun 2014 #141

Is it an insult to fellow members of DU to refer to them as paid government shills? Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #143

I recced that as an interesting discussion Mojorabbit Jun 2014 #145

This is a double standard on your part Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #146

No. Really. It isn't. Mojorabbit Jun 2014 #147

Well I don't really keep track of recs, but I've seen your posts in the past and I assumed you rec'd Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #148

I won't waste any more time. I am glad you aren't keeping a list of who recs what Mojorabbit Jun 2014 #151

I have very little doubt that some who post here are paid, either merrily Jun 2014 #220

Would that include Andy823 Jun 2014 #228

Who do you think would pay the "left of the left" to post? merrily Jun 2014 #230

Amazing Andy823 Jun 2014 #234

Well I did answer, but I will spell it out for you again. merrily Jun 2014 #236

I get it quakerboy Jun 2014 #61

That's generally the end result of campaigns against people that are so nasty and mean spirited, sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #18

Not surprised...just disappointed to see it on DU Armstead Jun 2014 #24

I know, I completely understand your point. My comment was directed to Cali Dem though, trying to sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #34

No prob Armstead Jun 2014 #46

+1. When they launch into a litany of "traitor, narcissist, comrade Eddie, punk etc" I just turn off riderinthestorm Jun 2014 #35

The use of the McCarthy era vitriol which was specifically aimed at the Left, removes all sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #48

All conservatives aim their vitriol at the left. merrily Jun 2014 #221

In 2007-08, I defended Obama on another board vigorously and continually. The board owner was merrily Jun 2014 #226

Absolutely correct. 840high Jun 2014 #83

Amazing isn't it! We Have the Power! Cha Jun 2014 #162

Kicked. Recommended. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2014 #5

Ikr? I used to argue with my friend about Greenwald. Vattel Jun 2014 #6

That's always a solid way to decide what one stands for. Whisp Jun 2014 #8

Not deciding what I stand for Armstead Jun 2014 #13

I read it that the poster was standing AGAINST something. Mean spirited, personal attacks are never sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #22

A good rule of thumb... HooptieWagon Jun 2014 #9

+1 nashville_brook Jun 2014 #17

I highly doubt that! nt Andy823 Jun 2014 #19

Are you talking about DUers who have blue link specials on DUers being gov't spies? Whisp Jun 2014 #21

Spot on Capt. Obvious Jun 2014 #33

Did you say ProSense Jun 2014 #41

The difference is that propaganda is based in loyalty, not policies and principles. woo me with science Jun 2014 #68

Seriously, ProSense Jun 2014 #73

I would have said that the difference is... winter is coming Jun 2014 #79

That's simpler. woo me with science Jun 2014 #82

.... 840high Jun 2014 #87

My Blue Links can beat up your Blue Links! Whisp Jun 2014 #129

Whoa... BrotherIvan Jun 2014 #149

People do not seem to realise Ichingcarpenter Jun 2014 #154

+1 woo me with science Jun 2014 #193

+1 a whole fucking bunch. Enthusiast Jun 2014 #170

Whoa. Luminous Animal Jun 2014 #182

+1000 HooptieWagon Jun 2014 #184

Wow...thankyou for doing all that work LiberalLovinLug Jun 2014 #190

Nailed it LondonReign2 Jun 2014 #196

i would of liked the 2006 pro questionseverything Jun 2014 #203

Yeah some of us saw through that at the very beginning of the blue links facade. Rex Jun 2014 #216

I bothered to try to follow the links a few times. merrily Jun 2014 #222

With more than 116,000 posts, I presumed you chose to decline closeupready Jun 2014 #191

...^ that 840high Jun 2014 #85

the White House can easily choose not to own this, by fixing it nashville_brook Jun 2014 #16

I agree. I don't need to like the guys to be disgusted that my government is spying on me. Squinch Jun 2014 #20

Exactamundo Armstead Jun 2014 #23

I thought the thread earlier about Squinch Jun 2014 #26

+ 1000. THAT was enlightening... nt riderinthestorm Jun 2014 #37

I'm right there with you, Squinch Aerows Jun 2014 #69

+1 nt laundry_queen Jun 2014 #125

K&R! Well said! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2014 #40

Bingo. The more anyone makes it about Snowden and Greenwald, the less it becomes about the actions merrily Jun 2014 #223

I share your disgust psiman Jun 2014 #25

The two factions to which you refer Le Taz Hot Jun 2014 #43

Bingo Capt. Obvious Jun 2014 #49

+10000 billhicks76 Jun 2014 #55

I don't know left from right anymore Armstead Jun 2014 #56

There were Fourth Amendment demonstrations, esp. on July 4 of last year. merrily Jun 2014 #229

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #27

Well said malaise Jun 2014 #28

You must be a paid shill mindwalker_i Jun 2014 #29

He could be a racist Capt. Obvious Jun 2014 #32

Oh. Is that the new Meme!? fascisthunter Jun 2014 #144

Comrade Eddie thanks you Capt. Obvious Jun 2014 #30

Exactly.K&R nt snappyturtle Jun 2014 #39

K&R! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2014 #42

"I am not here to hide from justice." randome Jun 2014 #47

Do you believe there should be limits on how intrusive government spying is? Armstead Jun 2014 #52

Many ProSense Jun 2014 #60

I agree with Sanders and mostly Carter Armstead Jun 2014 #65

Of course there should be limits. And there are. randome Jun 2014 #63

That is a reasonable response Armstead Jun 2014 #66

Cheers! randome Jun 2014 #71

But the tone of the response to your question Aerows Jun 2014 #76

So don't do any spying because it's possible you might inadvertently see an American? randome Jun 2014 #84

Well isn't that a fascinating take on things! Aerows Jun 2014 #86

We're talking about the NSA monitoring foreign suspects, not American citizens. randome Jun 2014 #94

Apparently they don't 'monitor foreign suspects'. If they did they might have prevented the sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #138

+1 Tommymac Jun 2014 #208

The "Foreign" Surveillance Is Snoop-Laundering smb Jun 2014 #195

Exactly right, this point is ever ignored (even by folks on the side of our most basic rights) TheKentuckian Jun 2014 #237

Is it really? merrily Jun 2014 #231

The FISA Court Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #75

I had that slightly askew. randome Jun 2014 #80

I see at least two major problems with the FISA Court as my post above states. Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #92

Reform the hell out of it. Too bad Snowden had nothing to say about this until recently. randome Jun 2014 #96

PRISM, FISA Court it's all part of the same too secret for the public, Big Brother all knowing Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #106

Slightly? merrily Jun 2014 #232

Are you saying that the FISA courts were created during the Bush Adminstration? merrily Jun 2014 #225

That's not the question. nt stevenleser Jun 2014 #95

Well, O.K., whatever. Deep. n/t UTUSN Jun 2014 #57

About as deep as the rest of it Armstead Jun 2014 #59

Profoundly deep. nm Cha Jun 2014 #165

Thanks, I appreciate your post. I actually *was* a fan of Greenwald, way back in the day. scarletwoman Jun 2014 #62

"I cannot help but find their motives spurious." navarth Jun 2014 #111

Me too. Enthusiast Jun 2014 #171

you echo me completely Skittles Jun 2014 #64

congrats to you JI7 Jun 2014 #67

I was on the jury of an alert to another post that objected to the valerief Jun 2014 #72

Good lord Egnever Jun 2014 #91

Nah, just infected with trolls. nt valerief Jun 2014 #93

I've always assumed it was referring to Sci Fi nerds or other hero worshipers Armstead Jun 2014 #97

Right. Being a fanboy of most things is just fine anyway. The Sports industry valerief Jun 2014 #98

Basically my story, too MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #74

You can tell a man's Aerows Jun 2014 #78

That's basically how I feel too. JoeyT Jun 2014 #88

k/r 840high Jun 2014 #89

Very interesting post. That's partly how I got to where I am, I think. woo me with science Jun 2014 #100

It's The Boomerang Effect... The Person That Throws It... Doesn't Get Why Their Head Hurts... WillyT Jun 2014 #104

Here's more narrow view on what Democrats like me read... MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #109

a start would be ending the anonymity of alerters and juries. grasswire Jun 2014 #121

Okay, how do we weigh in on that excellent suggestion? MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #124

I suppose the question could be asked in the Ask the Administrator thread. grasswire Jun 2014 #132

Okay... MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #135

So, this is what Skinner said... MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #204

odd that the Transparency is a "punishment" meted out to posters when they are 'bad' bobduca Jun 2014 #176

Its that tag team jury effect. nilesobek Jun 2014 #194

that is a damn shame grasswire Jun 2014 #198

It comes from the same ones who take criticisms of the President personally. morningfog Jun 2014 #110

The really hilarious thing about the anti-Greenwald, anti-Snowden crowd? Spider Jerusalem Jun 2014 #112

+ 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! WillyT Jun 2014 #114

Do you mean ProSense Jun 2014 #118

Done in 2005 and no one gave data to the Chinese either uponit7771 Jun 2014 #131

They'd be cheering because, like their objection to the Iraq War, Maedhros Jun 2014 #140

Yeah, you go with that....in retrospect. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2014 #123

A long time ago, when Bill Clinton was president... grasswire Jun 2014 #130

word G_j Jun 2014 #137

+++ marions ghost Jun 2014 #156

+1. navarth Jun 2014 #177

Amen. It's politics as a team sport, not as doing what's best for the country. beerandjesus Jun 2014 #180

Bravo. Another poster referred to the swarm... Tommymac Jun 2014 #210

Yup. progressoid Jun 2014 #139

You Know What, F*ck Them! fascisthunter Jun 2014 #142

Totally agree. Katashi_itto Jun 2014 #150

Me too Aerows Jun 2014 #207

+1000 Katashi_itto Jun 2014 #212

Weak hands always bluff and bluster..... DeSwiss Jun 2014 #152

People find a lot of excuses for not supporting the Obama administration ucrdem Jun 2014 #153

Yes, I'm very angry about Benghazi and the IRS....This is just the same as those NOT Armstead Jun 2014 #159

Latching onto half-baked outrages like NSA-gate is no different. ucrdem Jun 2014 #183

I don't think it's half baked Armstead Jun 2014 #186

Just because you don't see a problem SomethingFishy Jun 2014 #197

I see plenty of problems, just not the ones being splashed around. ucrdem Jun 2014 #202

We are all responsible for our own feelings. riqster Jun 2014 #160

Apparently not the OP. nm Cha Jun 2014 #166

Yep. Who knew we had such power over others, eh? riqster Jun 2014 #175

"You are either with us or against us" davidpdx Jun 2014 #161

I think you've miscategorized some of that Armstead Jun 2014 #164

I'm just pointing out that you can dislike them as a person & still disagree w/ surveillance policy davidpdx Jun 2014 #168

I agree with that -- It's the nature of that I have a problem with Armstead Jun 2014 #169

You need to watch what you say, watch what you do Capt. Obvious Jun 2014 #167

Kicked and recommended a whole bunch! Enthusiast Jun 2014 #172

Yep. Sounds about right. The_Commonist Jun 2014 #173

I agree with you and am glad Snowden did what he did LiberalLovinLug Jun 2014 #192

I think that's an excellent question! The_Commonist Jun 2014 #209

Sounds like right about where I am. raouldukelives Jun 2014 #179

But, you don't understand. Ellsberg (Pentagon Papers) has respect here because LiberalArkie Jun 2014 #181

Right on the money Dopers_Greed Jun 2014 #199

That pretty much describes me as well abelenkpe Jun 2014 #201

That's about how I feel as well, but I'd add that the homphobia laced attacks on Greenwald Bluenorthwest Jun 2014 #206

Question authority. obxhead Jun 2014 #213

Armstead, makes you wonder when a long time DU poster saidsimplesimon Jun 2014 #214

Same here. I wouldn't trust Snowden with a blank flashdrive. Rex Jun 2014 #215

Interestingly, the opposite obtains for me frazzled Jun 2014 #218

Different strokes for different folks Armstead Jun 2014 #219

51!!! Capt. Obvious Jun 2014 #227

Twisted itsrobert Jun 2014 #235