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In reply to the discussion: The Top 5 Claims That Defenders Of The NSA Have To Stop Making To Remain Credible - EFF [View all]LuckyTheDog
(6,837 posts)48. A couple things
Generally it's the opinion of the Left that gathering and storing data on the entire population in the absence of any suspicion of a crime is bad. Generally it's the opinion of the Right that this is necessary to Keep Us Safe(tm).
Not really. Some of the most breathless criticism of the NSA program comes from the right -- or, at least that has been the case since Obama was elected. Much of the criticism from the right is based on the false idea that the NSA is actually recording phone calls, not just collecting billing data. And, like I said, I would like it if the Congress, the courts of both put an end to this. But I don't see an upside for the president if he ended it unilaterally. ANY attack on U.S. soil or against U.S. interests would then be blamed on Obama's "weakness" in refusing to do "what needed to be done."
Also: I do tend to get impatient with people who jump immediately to the assumption that something in unconstitutional and base all further comments on that premise. Usually, I get that from right-wingers who try to say "the Constitution is written in plain English and is easy to understand." The reading level of the text is not the issue (as I am sure you know). Things like the vast amount of often contradictory precedents and legal theories make applying the ideals in that "simple text" into a very complicated thing.
So, while I could be persuaded that the NSA data collection is unconstitutional, I do not side with those who say Obama is willfully violating his oath of office - as if that was a matter of obvious fact, and not opinion. There are legal arguments to be made on both sides of this question. I expect the president and is lawyers think what they are doing is defensible. I object to the program mainly because I think it's intrusive and probably expensive and ineffective. I also see the potential for abuse. So, whether or not it's technically constitutional, it should be stopped.
BUT IT DOESN'T KEEP US SAFE. Your argument is based on a false premise.
Even if you are right, it hardly matters. As I said above, if the U.S. is attacked, any U.S. president has to be able to say that everything possible was done to prevent it. If it is later shown that the president left anything on the table, then whatever he did not do will be blamed for the attack. The political enemies of this particular president would not hesitate to lie about the cause of any attack or to politicize it for the purpose of impeaching the president.
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The Top 5 Claims That Defenders Of The NSA Have To Stop Making To Remain Credible - EFF [View all]
WillyT
Jun 2014
OP
Why didn't the NationalSpyAgency stop the greatest threat to national security since 9/11 ...
GeorgeGist
Jun 2014
#1
I find the need to label someone that is interested in regaining freedoms and liberties as a
rhett o rick
Jun 2014
#95
It's naive for anyone to think that gaining power isnt the goal of most in politics.
rhett o rick
Jun 2014
#109
There are plenty of non-libertarians who are interested in regaining freedoms and liberties
Fortinbras Armstrong
Jun 2014
#120
Good luck with your idea of a name the the logical fallacy. I think there is one but it's too early
rhett o rick
Jun 2014
#124
"If you are looking for a needle in a haystack, the last thing you want to do is make the stack larg
rhett o rick
Jun 2014
#104
Now if I was arguing for a RW talking point I would link RW talking point sites.
Thinkingabout
Jun 2014
#3
Never said it was, I posted IF i was arguing a RW talking point I would link a RW site.
Thinkingabout
Jun 2014
#31
They have an explanation on their web site, like I say if I want to have site to link to then
Thinkingabout
Jun 2014
#65
I never said it was a RW site, Willy answered something to that effect and you have said it also.
Thinkingabout
Jun 2014
#67
You must have read the wrong post, I NEVER SAID NSA SPYING IS A RW TALKING POINT>
Thinkingabout
Jun 2014
#97
You ask a lot of questions. Cant you make statements? What kind of a site do you think
rhett o rick
Jun 2014
#78
And if you call about a close relative's medical condition -- would that act get you killed?
Bernardo de La Paz
Jun 2014
#18
Posts that begin with "SO" and followed by a fantasy statement that NOBODY has made...
bvar22
Jun 2014
#115
There are a number of posters that assert that the NSA's surveillance activities
Maedhros
Jun 2014
#32
"Those in charge of these programs know more about what is happening that we do"
Aerows
Jun 2014
#42
Posts that begin with "SO" and followed by a fantasy statement that NOBODY has made...
1StrongBlackMan
Jun 2014
#127
Please quote the provision of the Constitution that charges Congress with oversight of the
merrily
Jun 2014
#143
Regardless of what the NSA is or is not supposed to be, our govt. is not supposed to
merrily
Jun 2014
#132
Yet all of these arguments are in response to those who express concern with the growing
Maedhros
Jun 2014
#46
Those that openly disparage Snowden and Greenwald refuse to explain what they think about
rhett o rick
Jun 2014
#80
You say "the vast majority" have separated the two issues. First I really wonder how you know how
rhett o rick
Jun 2014
#102
Everyone who disagrees with you is not seeing things as they are? Only you are?
merrily
Jun 2014
#133
Yes, there are. There are also here people who remain strangely quiet about the NSA
merrily
Jun 2014
#126
More stuff I never said. Please, have pity on the straw men. They need their rest, too.
merrily
Jun 2014
#165
? Posts of yours on this very thread are, in essence, defenses of the NSA's actions.
merrily
Jun 2014
#140
I've bookmarked this thread and the article. The next time they use one of these talking points
riderinthestorm
Jun 2014
#52
Except that the alleged absence of any defense of the NSA by them is also a talking point.
merrily
Jun 2014
#139
yes that is how it looks to you because you do not revere the Constitution
questionseverything
Jun 2014
#166