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JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
47. Stephen, it's more complicated than that.
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 09:01 PM
Jun 2014

Here is the text of the Fourth Amendment because we should never lose sight of what we are talking about:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

The comment at that website states that the Fourth Amendment focuses on the security and protection of the home. In fact, some of the early, pre-revolutionary cases that are believed to have given rise to the Fourth Amendment had nothing to do with the privacy of the home.

John Adams' defense of John Hancock based on an insufficient warrant concerned the Liberty, a ship, not Hancock's home. The Fourth Amendment does not specifically mention the home. The assumption that the Fourth Amendment is about protecting just the home seems absurd to me. It is not supported in the history of the revolutionary period.

The trigger for the dispute between the American revolutionaries and the British government was the British government's enforcement of import duties and restriction of trade in the American colonies. The British government wanted to tax and control the products that Americans brought in. To this end, they issued general warrants that permitted the British to enter the businesses, ships and homes of Americans to search for illegally imported items.

Here is an article in the Indiana Law Journal that discusses the likely original intent of the drafters of the Fourth Amendment. Madison drafted the Fourth Amendment for our Constitution based on the work of John Adams.

Do read the whole article, Stephen Leser. I hope you enjoy it.

1006
INDIANA LAW JOURNAL
[Vol. 86 79
Several themes that found later resonance in John Adams’s views and in Fourth
Amendment jurisprudence can be seen in Thatcher’s arguments, including the
acknowledgement of probable cause as a standard to measure the propriety of an
intrusion, a concern with standardless discretion, and the temporary nature of
warrants. Still, it was Otis who inspired Adams, and many of the principles that
Otis advocated found a place in Adams’s writings and subsequent search and
seizure constitutional provisions. Specifically, significant aspects of Otis’s
arguments became elements of Article 14 and Fourth Amendment structure and
jurisprudence. They include the following: identifying the right to be “secure” as
the interest implicated by a search or seizure; listing the home as a protected place;
utilizing the common law search warrant as a model for when warrants can issue;
defining unjustified intrusions as “unreasonable”; and indicating that probable
cause based searches and seizures are proper. More broadly, Otis’s concerns about
the need for certain procedures, the scope of intrusions, and the arbitrary use of
authority, have had continued importance in search and seizure jurisprudence to
this day. Underlying all of those arguments and principles was a quest for objective
criteria to measure the legitimacy of a search or seizure.


. . . .

Many of the state governments at the time of the American Revolution adopted
legal protections against unreasonable searches and seizures. . . . Those protections,
embodied in the constitutions of the various states after declaring their
independence, typically addressed only abuses associated with general warrants. The Massachusetts Constitution, drafted by John Adams in 1779 and adopted by the Commonwealth in 1780, offered a much different model. The constitution Adams created was preceded by a “Declaration of Rights,” including a search and seizure provision that ultimately became Article 14, which provided:
Every subject has a right to be secure from all unreasonable searches
and seizures of his person, his house, his papers, and all his
possessions. All warrants, therefore, are contrary to this right, if the
cause or foundation of them be not previously supported by oath or
affirmation, and if the order in the warrant to a civil officer, to make
search in suspected places, or to arrest one or more suspected persons,
or to seize their property, be not accompanied with a special
designation of the person or objects of search, arrest, or seizure; and no
warrant ought to be issued but in cases, and with the formalities
prescribed by the laws


http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/ncjrl/pdf/CLANCY/Clancy.%20ADAMS%20and%20Framers.PDF%20version.pdf

I added the emphasis.

The FISA orders and searches and seizures by the NSA closely resemble the general warrants that were so hated by the American colonists. (It was reading the Verizon order that shocked me into becoming a crusader on this issue. It is far too general, far too sweeping. I was just speechless.) They do not conform to Adams' and Madisons' and the Founding Fathers' standard. They are not based on probable cause and they do not identify with specificity the persons, places, things, etc. to be searched. And they do purport to authorize searches.

Since the introduction of telephones, the internet and other new technologies (including the automobile) the question is whether and how the Fourth Amendment should apply. These new technologies permit intrusions into our lives and the amassing and analysis of data that would have astounded our Founding Fathers.

The NSA takes the view that it can do what it wants. I and, from what he has done and said, Edward Snowden and many others strongly disagree.

Since at least the Franklin D. Roosevelt era, our government with a nod from the Supreme Court has increasingly violated our rights under the Fourth Amendment. As we use more technology that makes the sidestepping or ignoring of the Fourth Amendment less noticeable to us, we need to defend our rights.

To explain: violations of the Fourth Amendment are obvious when the police come and knock down your door without a warrant. But today, the government can accomplish almost the same degree of invasion of your personal privacy with no noise, imperceptibly by just reading your text messages to your boyfriend for example. That's pretty horrible.

The Supreme Court has, in the past, suggested that the test to apply in deciding whether a search or seizure violates the Constitution is whether we have a reasonable expectation of privacy as to the person, place, thing searched. That is a pretty weak test in my opinion because the government and the Supreme Court have told us that we can't expect much privacy at all. The expectation of privacy is measured not by our subjective expectation of privacy but by the Court's expectation of privacy. And for example Anthony Wiener's expectation of privacy about his person is probably very different from mine. But that is the test. It is ultimately therefore the Supreme Court Justices' expectation of privacy that controls the test I suppose.

Der Spiegel claims that the NSA can use various technologies to view you as you type on the internet -- if you have Skype, they can view you supposedly -- and Snowden stated that the NSA employees can watch us as we edit on the computer. That is an example of a new technological capacity that the Supreme Court has not ruled on.

I would assert that I have, at the very least, a reasonable expectation of privacy to any information that I use a password to get including my personal identifying information on DU. People certainly have an expectation to privacy if that encrypt their messages or use some sort of program that limits the collection of their history. I would also assert that I have a reasonable expectation of privacy as to my location when I am not in a government office, and there is no search warrant for me. I would assert a reasonable expectation to my financial accounts, to the interior of my car, to my phone records, to the content of my phone records, my e-mails and many, many other things. I would assert a reasonable expectation of privacy to anything I have or use on my computer that is not specifically placed by me on a website that is open to the public. I believe that I have a right to expect privacy in my Google searches. If Google asks my permission to collect them, fine. But it is up to me to consent to government access to them.

Those who argue in support of the NSA surveillance rely on that Maryland case decided by the Supreme Court in the late 1970s. Supreme Court decisions make general rules based on specific circumstances. The specific circumstance in that case concerned obtaining pen registers from the phone company in the context of a criminal investigation. The Court did not necessarily approve of the NSA's obtaining the pen registers of millions of innocent people, then sorting and analyzing them so as to determine who calls whom, what our social networks are. The facts are very different.

We need to obtain new Supreme Court rulings by bringing new cases, instances in which innocent people are placed under surveillance. Changing precedents set by the Supreme Court is a war of attrition. The past decisions have to be questioned, distinguished, meaning differentiated based on the facts or the law. It can take a long time to correct a situation. Think of the "separate but equal" battle. But so far, the U.S. government has made bringing new cases that are not related to criminal activity difficult if not impossible by asserting the right to withhold evidence based on national security interests.

Whether the government should withhold such evidence is a political issue. I believe the government's policy in that regard needs to be changed.

We also need to push Congress to pass new laws that prohibit the NSA's abuse of its capacity for surveillance. To that end, we need to change public opinion, to alert people to the dangers of excessive NSA surveillance.

Snowden has played a very helpful role in alerting Americans that he witnessed what he believed was excessive surveillance when he worked as a private contractor for the NSA.

I'm with John Adams and his fellow revolutionaries. I want to see the Fourth Amendment enforced so as to protect our privacy. I want the standard to be the issuance of a warrant that complies with the Fourth Amendment.

I do not think that Americans will put up with the status quo once they understand what is going on, what it means for their loss of privacy. Snowden has done us a favor by starting the conversation. Without seeing the Verizon order, I for one would not have understood just how bad the problem with the NSA surveillance is.

I support Edward Snowden's efforts to start a conversation. In the end, this is an issue that has to be dealt with through international protocols. I don't want the Chinese, the Germans, the Russians or the Portuguese or the British to place my electronic data under surveillance any more than I want the American government to do it.

We all, we earthlings, need to protect our right to privacy. It is a universal right.

The NSA could have released that email a year ago MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #1
I find it much easier to believe that the GG, the ES & the PO are continuing to lie like crazy. Whisp Jun 2014 #3
I find it easier to believe the NSA is lying. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #33
Thank you for that 4th Amendment history - I was not aware closeupready Jun 2014 #38
Why should they release anything? Given that Mr. Snowden has charges pending in the federal docket, msanthrope Jun 2014 #12
Then why release the email they released? MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #15
because that email had Nothing to do with what Snowden promised. Whisp Jun 2014 #36
I have no idea. I would not have released it. But his attorneys can release what they wish. nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #42
Maybe because it's evidence of nothing. And relevant to nothing. randome Jun 2014 #43
Snowdedn "seems to have" a problem with the truth? DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2014 #2
Oh, don't exaggerate. JackRiddler Jun 2014 #105
Long worded 'Kill the Messenger' fallacy AgingAmerican Jun 2014 #4
I evaluate both the messenger and the message. Both are faulty and stevenleser Jun 2014 #16
So you don't believe that the NSA spied on us? AgingAmerican Jun 2014 #20
The NSA illegally destroyed the records Fred Drum Jun 2014 #26
As usual, Snowden fans have mischaracterized things. stevenleser Jun 2014 #46
Does AgingAmerican Jun 2014 #49
You'll forgive us if we don't all fall in line with the authoritarians. L0oniX Jun 2014 #82
Well if the NSA said that in a press release JackRiddler Jun 2014 #111
Liar Eddie kills his own damn message. Cha Jun 2014 #70
This is why after one time, I no longer will make the effort to listen.. MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #5
Once was enough for me bahrbearian Jun 2014 #13
My target audience is the reality based community, not Snowden/Greenwald sycophants stevenleser Jun 2014 #19
"...like they just came down from a chat with a burning bush." randome Jun 2014 #22
Is that why you go on Fox News? Union Scribe Jun 2014 #30
+ a gazillion. nt Mojorabbit Jun 2014 #51
LMFAO ...yea that. Lots of reality base going on there. Birds of a feather I guess. L0oniX Jun 2014 #81
Thanks for exposing yourself by deeming those who don't share your view as brown nosers... MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #37
I don't blame him, he needs more airtime on Fox Dragonfli Jun 2014 #56
"Can't fault a person for needing to eat…" MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #58
I would never personaly resort to such a dishonorable profession to live Dragonfli Jun 2014 #62
I hope we are all in a position within a few more years to embrace the good... MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #78
The Libertarian right is on your and Snowdens side they love that this is a stevenleser Jun 2014 #87
"Ed Snowden, Russian TV star, hands Putin a propaganda coup" JackRiddler Jun 2014 #109
How silly! And Peter King agrees with you. neverforget Jun 2014 #114
Birth? JackRiddler Jun 2014 #106
Ooof! Doctor! MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #116
Snowden couldn't name one thing the NSA has done that is illegal. Not one. randome Jun 2014 #6
Yeah, sure... MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #7
Well, I wouldn't take Snowden's word for anything. The man is a thief. randome Jun 2014 #8
If you want an objective reason, you can start with this one... MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #14
What is the proof? randome Jun 2014 #17
maybe you should ask the EFF Fred Drum Jun 2014 #27
They only have supposition but I would still trust them more than Snowden. randome Jun 2014 #28
"EFF to Court: There's No Doubt the Government Destroyed NSA Spying Evidence…" MrMickeysMom Jun 2014 #39
Authoritarians have no interest in evidence AgingAmerican Jun 2014 #57
That's the standard authoritarian reply AgingAmerican Jun 2014 #55
You realize that its illegal for the NSA to spy on American citizens mudy waters Jun 2014 #18
I do. Where is the proof that they are violating this law? randome Jun 2014 #21
You'll never get through to them. Union Scribe Jun 2014 #32
I know. It's just mental exercise, at this point. randome Jun 2014 #34
You have been given proof in a plethora of threads. nt Mojorabbit Jun 2014 #52
No, it's not. You, like Snowden, are practicing Constitutional law without training. stevenleser Jun 2014 #48
Snowden is like those idiots who send hatemail to DU for T/Sing them and talk about how stevenleser Jun 2014 #23
Thank goodness I was afraid I'd missed it. Union Scribe Jun 2014 #9
Ah yes, "I am not a spy." ucrdem Jun 2014 #10
With much thanks to Iching Carpenter for this reminder and huge chunk of wisdom ... Aerows Jun 2014 #11
Nah SnowGlen didn't "like" what was goin on so they decided to bust airThang wide open... you know uponit7771 Jun 2014 #24
WTF?? Anybody?? elias49 Jun 2014 #45
I assumed he fell asleep on the keyboard Union Scribe Jun 2014 #54
IOWs - "... I have a narrow cultural range of friends..." uponit7771 Jun 2014 #61
Here are some other sources for you since you don't trust Snowden: Cerridwen Jun 2014 #25
He must have suckered the ACLU, and other civil liberties groups, free press organizations, Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2014 #29
Confessions of their character Aerows Jun 2014 #31
You want to bring up character, do you? Whisp Jun 2014 #35
Well this post says a lot about your character. nt laundry_queen Jun 2014 #60
If the answer to the first half of question one is "yes," then the rest is justified. morningfog Jun 2014 #40
What if the little jerk didn't actually take Anything... Whisp Jun 2014 #41
According to this org map of NSA divisions, GC does NOT have a compliance and oversight division. Luminous Animal Jun 2014 #44
Stephen, it's more complicated than that. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #47
It is more complicated than that, but not in the way you are asserting. stevenleser Jun 2014 #50
Supreme Court decisions are not the eternal law. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #53
It's not a supreme court decision. It's dozens of appellate decisions that the Supreme Court stevenleser Jun 2014 #65
The technology today makes the facts very different. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #69
No, none of what you just wrote is correct. stevenleser Jun 2014 #102
Sorry. The job of the appellate courts is to follow the precedents set out by the JDPriestly Jun 2014 #103
Here is some more helpful information for you. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #64
See my #65 above. nt stevenleser Jun 2014 #66
The essential thing to remember is that neither the Constitution nor the JDPriestly Jun 2014 #79
So much distortion and speculation here that it's hard to know where to begin. Vattel Jun 2014 #59
ummmm, Snowden "... I'm not a spy..." quote uponit7771 Jun 2014 #63
Funny. Feinstein & Rodgers agree that he is not a spy for Russia. Which is what Snowden was asserted Luminous Animal Jun 2014 #68
He said he was not a spy, he didn't say for whom... and yeah, the email thing is a open shut uponit7771 Jun 2014 #72
Oh, please this is pathetic. Vattel Jun 2014 #74
On the edit, it's the "Russia" conversation where he said he wasn't a spy not the China one.... uponit7771 Jun 2014 #75
Brian Williams pressed Snowden to specify something the NSA had done that was illegal. randome Jun 2014 #83
LOL, ok! nt Logical Jun 2014 #67
I see the little Eddie "I am not a spy" Eddie/wouldn't lie-brigrade is here to defend their "hero".. Cha Jun 2014 #71
Needing more Fox news airtime? Katashi_itto Jun 2014 #73
Conservatives love Snowdens allegations as they love anything that hurts Obama. stevenleser Jun 2014 #76
So it's nothing to do with the fact NSA violated the 4th Katashi_itto Jun 2014 #77
All appellate decisions are on the other side of where you are stevenleser Jun 2014 #86
I do not get this mission Aerows Jun 2014 #95
It doesn't violate the fourth amendment. stevenleser Jun 2014 #99
Trying to link yourself to EarlG Aerows Jun 2014 #100
I wasn't linking myself to EarlG I was linking you to those who send him hatemail stevenleser Jun 2014 #101
Thanks, I appreciate Aerows Jun 2014 #110
"those who love Snowden and Greenwald are the ones angling for a spot on Conservative media" LMFAO L0oniX Jun 2014 #85
And people on Fux news Aerows Jun 2014 #89
You thought Right bobduca Jun 2014 #91
Shockingly false. JackRiddler Jun 2014 #112
Approve of the NSA huh? ...then people don't deserve the freedom they have... L0oniX Jun 2014 #80
alternate show names? bobduca Jun 2014 #84
I vote for "The O'Leser Factor" JackRiddler Jun 2014 #113
You can kill the messenger Aerows Jun 2014 #88
I can and did skewer the hopelessly flawed message stevenleser Jun 2014 #90
Why? Aerows Jun 2014 #92
Because it is hopelessly flawed and incorrect. stevenleser Jun 2014 #93
How? Aerows Jun 2014 #94
This should be enough to get you started stevenleser Jun 2014 #96
Oh boy Aerows Jun 2014 #97
Like all my opinions, it's properly sourced stevenleser Jun 2014 #98
Aaaaaaawwww... JackRiddler Jun 2014 #115
But But But HangOnKids Jun 2014 #117
Yeah, it's totally courageous. JackRiddler Jun 2014 #118
READ Greenwald's book, everyone. It disabuses the OP of all this arduous case building. nt ancianita Jun 2014 #104
To expect normal people to think one side is lying and the other is the pillar of truth, is insanity Rex Jun 2014 #107
Agreed. ancianita Jun 2014 #108
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