General Discussion

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)

173. I am completely NOT following you ...

Wed Jun 18, 2014, 02:55 AM

Jun 2014

I understand the part where, at today's prices, this scale of a project in not feasible, would cost more money than has ever existed, etc (not that this means we SHOULDN'T attempt it, mind you, but I see what *I think* your point is.

But you totally lose me on this part:

"Solar is entirely incapable of meeting the world's energy needs. The coal/natural gas/oil industries don't want you to understand that because it's serving as a very convenient cover for them to sell even more of their dirty product."

Did you mean to say 'capable' rather than 'incapable'? Because regardless of the economic reality of the situation, why would the fossil fuel industries NOT want us to think that solar is 'incapable'? Isn't that exactly what they WOULD want us to think?

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The total area of solar panels it would take to power the world, Europe, and Germany [View all] redqueen Jun 2014 OP

K&R! Life could be so simple! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2014 #1

Could you imagine the SIZE OF THE INTERNATIONAL... SkyDaddy7 Jun 2014 #81

It would be a huge army. I just don't understand some humans, not at all. One little spinning RKP5637 Jun 2014 #89

Humans are just pretentious monkeys, RKP5637. johnlucas Jun 2014 #172

Yep, that sums it up quite well! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2014 #178

This plan wouldn't work. CSStrowbridge Jun 2014 #132

It's an illustration .. Lenomsky Jun 2014 #138

Yes, I totally agree! SkyDaddy7 Jun 2014 #192

Good lord. This isn't a proposed site. Orsino Jun 2014 #147

^THIS Jamastiene Jun 2014 #158

Or the acreage covered by graves of the people lost to the pursuit of oil csziggy Jun 2014 #161

That's the utterly depressing part Aerows Jun 2014 #188

+ about a million! Dark n Stormy Knight Aug 2014 #195

It sort of is a proposed site goldent Jun 2014 #190

LOL!! How did you get to "US invading for petroleum" or anything like that? WOW!!! SkyDaddy7 Jun 2014 #193

I suspect the wires to run power around the world would be more expensive than quakerboy Jun 2014 #189

We would not have to worry about it... SkyDaddy7 Jun 2014 #194

And CLEAN! southerncrone Jun 2014 #101

Looks like about 900 square miles total PatrickforO Jun 2014 #137

Yep, just a pipe dream with bribed politicians. And, there would be the solar wars. Humans don't RKP5637 Jun 2014 #139

900 square miles? Looks more like roughly 35,000 square miles. cheapdate Jun 2014 #171

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #2

My pleasure! redqueen Jun 2014 #3

Peace to you, redqueen. Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #5

I heartily second that! theHandpuppet Jun 2014 #7

"They" will demand evidence this is true from many sources duhneece Jun 2014 #50

A post just a few down from yours does exactly what you said. Squinch Jun 2014 #112

Pedantic: Probably need to quadruple the "world" box to cover transmission losses. (nt) jeff47 Jun 2014 #4

Do you have something to back up that assertion? I would be interested in more info on this subject. Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2014 #22

Ohm's law is the place to start understanding transmission loss FrodosPet Jun 2014 #38

so then, USA would be better off to locate their panels our SW deserts. Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2014 #43

Big plants could be put in the desert, but wide spread individual installatios are best FrodosPet Jun 2014 #67

There are a couple of interesting TED videos about battery storage... Blanks Jun 2014 #73

Wouldn't the daily charge/discharge rapidly reduce battery efficiency? n/t OnlinePoker Jun 2014 #74

Shhhhhhhhhh .... oldhippie Jun 2014 #75

I think battery technology has improved a lot... Blanks Jun 2014 #78

It depends on the battery chemistry. jeff47 Jun 2014 #90

The batteries being developed for EVs are what will be used kristopher Jun 2014 #124

Maybe, maybe not. jeff47 Jun 2014 #144

Solar on every rooftop. Voice for Peace Jun 2014 #99

"... you wouldn't need to store it ..." oldhippie Jun 2014 #182

well... now don't give me a hard time on this.. wouldn't have to store a ton of it, because Voice for Peace Jun 2014 #183

Not to give you a hard time, but oldhippie Jun 2014 #184

I have no credibility already, so it's not a concern. Voice for Peace Jun 2014 #185

OK, I understand .... oldhippie Jun 2014 #186

I am not an engineer, luckily for those people. Voice for Peace Jun 2014 #187

I say put them over ... aggiesal Jun 2014 #70

^^^ THIS. MH1 Jun 2014 #102

In the medians of interstates. greiner3 Jun 2014 #122

Our power distribution model is horrifyingly antiquated Recursion Jun 2014 #129

I wouldn't lose much in transmission if I put solar panels on my roof here in Southern JDPriestly Jun 2014 #33

I agree that a roof is the best place. demigoddess Jun 2014 #83

The system we've just installed... meaculpa2011 Jun 2014 #146

A friend of mine lives in so cal and had solar installed for free basically Rainforestgoddess Jun 2014 #96

Probably more than that.. in fact its not really practical over a few thousand miles. DCBob Jun 2014 #37

That seems to be discussed in the third section of the thesis - pages 33 to 49 of the linked pdf... xocet Jun 2014 #41

Would super-conductive lines reduce that transmission loss? n/t Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #109

Yes, but we haven't come up with superconductors jeff47 Jun 2014 #145

I think this is a metaphorical placement. An illustration. The facilities would be placed closer to newthinking Jun 2014 #114

Pretty picture... B2G Jun 2014 #6

Nicely dismissive. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #10

No, actually Android3.14 Jun 2014 #80

solar constant - to whom it may concern kg4jxt Jun 2014 #177

link to "Eco-balance of a Solar Electricity Transmission from North Africa to Europe" sl8 Jun 2014 #19

It does not have to be one big center! Helen Borg Jun 2014 #36

That point is so obvious that I couldn't bring myself to type it. redqueen Jun 2014 #46

Geeze, a lot of sensitive types here today B2G Jun 2014 #62

I used to rationalize my back-handed compliments too. LanternWaste Jun 2014 #68

I long for the day when you say greyl Jun 2014 #121

No kidding... Thanks for asking, inquiring minds want to know! (nt) PosterChild Jun 2014 #104

They all sound so smart to be completely missing the point the way they are... Squinch Jun 2014 #113

And that would create masses of well-paid local jobs duhneece Jun 2014 #47

Water is the problem... Bigmack Jun 2014 #8

Coastal installation? redqueen Jun 2014 #9

Floating on water? AlbertCat Jun 2014 #11

That sounds cool. randome Jun 2014 #30

Wasn't there talk tom_kelly Jun 2014 #61

Far less water than thermal fossil or nuclear. kristopher Jun 2014 #12

Put collecting ponds under the panel arrays, collect the wastewater from them, filter it, Zorra Jun 2014 #24

Mental note: buy Windex stock. n/t A Simple Game Jun 2014 #25

Gas fracking and oil drilling also take a lot of water. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #52

I clean mine once a year and they work well. roody Jun 2014 #100

End of the 'overcharge for water' market autorank Jun 2014 #131

Well, c'mon Algeria! Get to it!!! The_Commonist Jun 2014 #13

Precisely why smallcat88 Jun 2014 #14

We were in Copenhagen earlier this month. Flying out, my husband mnhtnbb Jun 2014 #176

Perfect smallcat88 Jun 2014 #179

Oh sure. Enslave us to the biggest source of radiation in the solar system Orrex Jun 2014 #15

And if history is an indicator, nobody has thought of how and where to store the waste yet. n/t A Simple Game Jun 2014 #26

Damn! I didn't even think of that! Orrex Jun 2014 #29

See what I mean, even well intentioned people can't get it right every time! n/t A Simple Game Jun 2014 #32

Awsome Stryst Jun 2014 #16

Ah, the curse of black and white thinking. AllyCat Jun 2014 #39

This message was self-deleted by its author Stryst Jun 2014 #56

My thought exactly.... Ineeda Jun 2014 #65

"... look at the top of every building..." oldhippie Jun 2014 #76

Western or southwestern facing panels are often more financially attractive kristopher Jun 2014 #125

True. Unfortunately, my west side roof .... oldhippie Jun 2014 #149

So because your building has a shaded roof AllyCat Jun 2014 #180

Nope, didn't say that ..... oldhippie Jun 2014 #181

USPS. n/t jtuck004 Jun 2014 #118

Anyone who's ever driven through the deserts sufrommich Jun 2014 #17

A bit misleading in that Im sure it does not take into account distribution losses. DCBob Jun 2014 #18

That's a fair point of note Plucketeer Jun 2014 #35

Yes, they would have to be located across the globe within a few thousand miles of consumption.. DCBob Jun 2014 #42

It's called the 'roof' blackspade Jun 2014 #63

I dont think thats a large scale option. DCBob Jun 2014 #97

Yes but those actions will only lead to a slightly more hospitable ecosystem raouldukelives Jun 2014 #20

Lots of work wiring that solar panel to the entire world, though. Nye Bevan Jun 2014 #21

K&R stage left Jun 2014 #23

Decentralize, of course Treant Jun 2014 #27

"I'm taking this as nothing more than an area required in a sunny place." redqueen Jun 2014 #34

redqueen, thank you for pointing out that we in this world can saidsimplesimon Jun 2014 #28

Wow. Build in the Sahara and be done with it! Helen Borg Jun 2014 #31

This is what this graphic is referencing. progressoid Jun 2014 #40

K & R Great post. Thanks for bringing this up. n/t xocet Jun 2014 #44

That is a fair bit inaccurate berni_mccoy Jun 2014 #45

Much more realistic. That results in an area about 4 times larger than the one at the top. DCBob Jun 2014 #53

"Its still quite remarkable though how relatively small a space it would require." redqueen Jun 2014 #54

Yes, I don't disagree with the point. Just want to be accurate berni_mccoy Jun 2014 #64

I'd still like more decentralization Treant Jun 2014 #57

There we go. Thank you. Android3.14 Jun 2014 #98

Great post here. Much more realistic and data driven. karadax Jun 2014 #167

Rooftop? rickyhall Jun 2014 #48

Enormous Treant Jun 2014 #59

Sounds like BS, yet again Android3.14 Jun 2014 #49

Energy != electricity. jeff47 Jun 2014 #92

Wrong Android3.14 Jun 2014 #94

LOL, how about you make a post showing the size? You seem.... Logical Jun 2014 #162

Rethugs and their Big Oil buds would never allow it. lpbk2713 Jun 2014 #51

Absolutely. SoapBox Jun 2014 #66

They are actively fighting against it on every front. Enthusiast Jun 2014 #86

Incredible. blackspade Jun 2014 #55

Every country has the potential packman Jun 2014 #58

RECOMMEND short interview with Stanford Professor Mark Jacobson in GASLAND 2 + following overview: proverbialwisdom Jun 2014 #60

Thanks for your post! redqueen Jun 2014 #69

HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Jun 2014 #71

Important information, thank you. n/t Jefferson23 Jun 2014 #72

I object to solar strongly when it is sited on fragile, previously undeveloped desert environments. hunter Jun 2014 #77

Where there is a will there is a way, and there is big lobby that doesn't want us to have solar..... nolabels Jun 2014 #115

I find that extremely hard to believe. Does this come from a creditable source? n/t doc03 Jun 2014 #79

Article from Scientific American exboyfil Jun 2014 #82

Is there some sort of land shortage I don't know about? mathematic Jun 2014 #84

This is so stupid edhopper Jun 2014 #85

The point is to show how relatively little space can provide a lot of power. redqueen Jun 2014 #88

Poe's law /nt edhopper Jun 2014 #91

God dammit redqueen Jun 2014 #95

Thank you treestar Jun 2014 #143

Yeah it is. I wish I'd replied to one of the ones that's serious. redqueen Jun 2014 #150

Would it be stupid to at least offset peak use? TheKentuckian Jun 2014 #116

Poe's Law /nt edhopper Jun 2014 #117

Snort. "And later on World News, 6 billion people trip on their way to the bathroom" n/t jtuck004 Jun 2014 #119

There's this magical storage device called a battery. Ground breaking stuff. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #120

it's a joke edhopper Jun 2014 #140

Yes, it is. wtmusic Jun 2014 #133

... redqueen Jun 2014 #153

Even if they never generate energy, shouldn't the polar icecaps have solar panels? SleeplessinSoCal Jun 2014 #87

Yes, white ones. edgineered Jun 2014 #127

That's what I was thinking. Don't know how to keep them from blowing away though. n/t SleeplessinSoCal Jun 2014 #134

THAT'S HUGE!!! (As in 'nearly one tenth the size of the BP oil spill.) TrollBuster9090 Jun 2014 #93

There certainly are a lot of literalists on this site. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #103

I'm a numbers type of guy wercal Jun 2014 #105

Great! Here are some numbers for you. wtmusic Jun 2014 #130

We are going to have to start somewhere (but really, it's already actually going on) nolabels Jun 2014 #135

No, actually, we don't "have to" do that at all wtmusic Jun 2014 #142

I am not a fossil fuel fan but for the last 37 years fixing trucks all day long that burn the stuff nolabels Jun 2014 #168

I am completely NOT following you ... brett_jv Jun 2014 #173

The oil, gas, and coal industries love renewables wtmusic Jun 2014 #191

Pssst, I sort of agree with you wercal Jun 2014 #148

Nobody here is ignoring cost - solar plus storage is already reaching grid parity bananas Jun 2014 #163

Ummm....Hawaii has triple the electricity cost than the rest of us wercal Jun 2014 #166

"California could follow in 2017, New York and Arizona in 2018, and many other states soon after." bananas Jun 2014 #169

Too much gibberish coming too fast wercal Jun 2014 #170

Elon Musk: "This is why I think solar power will be the primary long term solution" bananas Jun 2014 #164

Thanks for posting this - best thread of the day in my opinion aint_no_life_nowhere Jun 2014 #106

Actually...... DeSwiss Jun 2014 #107

Thank you - I'm sharing this lovemydog Jun 2014 #108

K&R emsimon33 Jun 2014 #110

Looks like Algeria has the potential to be the number 1 new world power. (literally) Kablooie Jun 2014 #111

The longest conversation I ever had with Al Gore was about this subject DFW Jun 2014 #123

Post removed Post removed Jun 2014 #126

Let's check in on Germany's solar experiment. wtmusic Jun 2014 #128

Most of the links and sublinks you posted are to greenwash type sites nolabels Jun 2014 #136

Bloomberg is a greenwash site? wtmusic Jun 2014 #141

Bloomberg is not a pro-business as usual site? intaglio Jun 2014 #151

Bloomberg is a pro-business site wtmusic Jun 2014 #155

LOL did you bother reading any of that? redqueen Jun 2014 #152

Of course wtmusic Jun 2014 #154

Your little link parade would make sense if posted in an anti-nuclear power thread. redqueen Jun 2014 #157

Bullshit wtmusic Jun 2014 #159

any stats on DonCoquixote Jun 2014 #156

Freakonomics padruig Jun 2014 #160

As long as its not centralized, it may be made more efficient... Humanist_Activist Jun 2014 #165

People, and their need for panacea-like solutions ... so predictable ... yet so sad ... brett_jv Jun 2014 #174

K&R Warren DeMontague Jun 2014 #175