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DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
89. So if this one awful dog was a "Pit Bull," you have proved something?
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 04:57 PM
Jun 2014

C'mon. What would that even be? You seem to want to imply that you have anecdotes proving something about some kind of dog, but you haven't said what it is. "Destructive potential?" "Maiming?" I've got an anecdote too -- my friend the federal LEO fears dogs to this day because a neighbor's Lab put lifelong scars on his face. You think a "nice" family pet with a less fearsome name can't maim and kill?

I appreciate that you don't want to cop to generalizing or fearing a dog based on its appearance.

So what exactly do you contend? The animals we call Pit Bulls are ... what? Extra dangerous? Extra unpredictable? They can be. So can Rottweilers, Mastiffs, Akitas, Huskies, German Shepherds, and every mix you can think of. You don't seem to want to contradict the fact that "Pit bull" as related in anecdotes and news reports is an unreliable moniker that at best describes three distinct breeds, and often just relies on looks.


Big dogs can hurt things. They are related to wolves and have powerful bites and a variety of instinctive, taught, and socialized behaviors that include attacking other animals and people under certain circumstances. But they are domestic animals, and it comes down to human responsibility to keep other people and animals safe.

I am genuinely horrified by your personal anecdote and very sorry that happened to anyone. The dog that did that was clearly a danger to the community and should have been contained. The Lab that ripped my friend's face was ... wait for it ... a supposedly harmless family pet as well.

What dog owner doesn't say they never knew their animal was a danger? Maybe the psycho drug dealer with his street-bred whatevers, but any responsible person whose dog does something terrible will tell you they are surprised.

You want to make rolly-eyes emoticons at me about the idea Pit Bulls are misidentified / maligned in the media? Would you believe the CDC?

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: 1979–1998[edit]
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published a study in 2000 on dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) that covered the years 1979–1998. The report concluded that relying on media coverage of dog-bite-related fatalities presents a biased view of the dogs involved. They stated that media reports are likely to only cover about 74% of the actual incidents and that dog attacks involving certain breeds may be more likely to receive media coverage. They also reported that since breed identification is difficult and subjective, attacks may be more likely to be "ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression".[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

What's actually is turning anecdotes into conclusions based on factors you can't reliably know. Animals are individual creatures, and as DOMESTIC animals, dogs are the products of human treatment and conditioning. You don't know a dog by looking any more than you know a person.

The fact is that everyone needs to be aware that large, powerful dogs can do terrible damage, and can have bred-in or socialized behaviors that attune them to attacking other animals or people. That's it. German Shepherds were the big villain dog decades ago. Then Dobermans. Then Rottweilers. Before that, it was other big breeds:

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: 1974–1975[edit]

The first epidemiological study of dog-bite fatalities in the United States was conducted by an epidemiologist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in 1977.[5] The study reported that all but one of the cases involved male dogs. The breeds reported in these incidents were St. Bernard, German Shepherd, Dachshund, Basenji, Collie, Husky, and Great Dane. Most incidents involved victims who were smaller or weaker than the dog. Thus, children under 5 years old accounted for the majority of victims. The study concluded that human behavior which the dogs perceived as threatening was the single most important factor contributing to these incidents.


If you want to generalize, watch out for MALE dogs, particularly un-neutered ones. That's the reliable statistic that holds up best and actually means something. And it's a lot harder to fudge or get wrong than calling every big-headed agressive dog a "Pit Bull!!"

The fact that a group of breeds and mixes that became extremely popular in the U.S. with people including dogfight breeders and criminals, who set out to create horrificly aggressive animals does not mean that every animal that looks a certain way is one of those. If all the idiots who want to keep a dangerous dog picked Mastiffs (and many do) or Shepherds, you'd have people claiming they were inherently dangerous as well.

University of Texas Study: 1966–1980[edit]

(snip)

In 6 of the incidents, there was no information available about the breed of dogs involved. Of the remaining 68 fatalities, many involved large and powerful molosser breeds: eight Saint Bernards, six Bull terriers, six Great Danes, as well as two attacks by Boxers and one by a Rottweiler.

In contrast to the time period covered by the CDC study, which found pit bulls and Rottweilers to be the most commonly involved breed in such attacks during that time period, this study found no fatal pit bull attacks at all in the US during its time period, and only one Rottweiler attack.

Ancient and spitz breeds also committed a significant minority of the attacks. These were mostly sled dog breeds (nine Husky breeds and five were Malamutes), but there was also one Chow Chow and one Basenji.

However, by far the most common specific single breed involved in fatal attacks (16) was the German Shepherd Dog, which, like the two Doberman Pinschers also listed, is a product of an intensive documented breeding program involving quite unrelated canine bloodlines to create a superior working dog. There were also two identified only as collies, although the breed was not specified.

There were multiple retriever attacks, including three Goldens and one Labrador, and there were two fatal attacks by very small breeds: a Dachshund, which is a very small scenthound bred to work as a terrier, and one Yorkshire Terrier, which is among the smallest of all dogs. Finally, in ten of the attacks, the dogs were only described as mixed breed.


Look, think what you want. But there's no rational basis to hate or condemn or assume to be especially dangerous dogs people call "Pit Bulls," whether that actual breed, the other two also called by that name, or varieties of mixes and mistakes reported in the news.

Dogs bite. Big dogs can bite very hard. Some dogs are aggressive. Caution, not hatred or generalization, is the rational response.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

BAD IDEA! boston bean Jun 2014 #1
I wish people would spay and neuter roody Jun 2014 #2
That is very true! etherealtruth Jun 2014 #5
Pit Bulls are killed out of unreasoned hatred, uninformed fear & outright prejudice. baldguy Jun 2014 #7
millions of unwanted dogs aof all breeds are killed elehhhhna Jun 2014 #21
And what of the *wanted* dogs that *should* exist? Do they get killed as well? baldguy Jun 2014 #23
Pitbulls are being killed....because they bite people wercal Jun 2014 #88
Thank you for your post. SheilaT Jun 2014 #91
Post removed Post removed Jun 2014 #101
Haters are gonna hate. NutmegYankee Jun 2014 #105
I voted against hiding the post you're responding to. delrem Jun 2014 #133
Some of their owners have freaked me out. nt arthritisR_US Jun 2014 #137
But now you speak about their owners. delrem Jun 2014 #138
Untrue - the three most aggressive breeds are Dachshunds, Chis and Jack Russell Terriers adigal Jun 2014 #150
I've been around my share of dachshunds and jack russells, SheilaT Jun 2014 #159
Here's the link adigal Jun 2014 #164
That's such BS. Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2014 #189
What do you think about the fact DirkGently Jun 2014 #211
+++++++++ uppityperson Jun 2014 #212
Ok show me a youtube video of a 911 call "My Chihuahua is killing my mother and I can't stop him!!!! Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2014 #214
You're mistaken. Killing machine stories go back at least a hundred years. Boudica the Lyoness Jul 2014 #221
Oh dear. You understand what an "anecdote" is, right? DirkGently Jul 2014 #223
Please don't consider irresponsible roody Jun 2014 #145
This is so silly....I have brought thousands of dogs up from the south adigal Jun 2014 #149
Why is it necessary to bring thousands up from the south? TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #171
We don't kill most breeds up here and we have no puppies adigal Jun 2014 #185
Sounds like the south needs to come into the 21st century TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #187
In the suburbs and rural areas, they don't care adigal Jun 2014 #188
Yeah, it sounds pretty back asswards. TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #190
You forgot, BAD and IRRESPONSIBLE OWNERS! nt arthritisR_US Jun 2014 #136
I tried to post an image etherealtruth Jun 2014 #3
No, they don't seveneyes Jun 2014 #4
Thanks for the reminder to donate to Victoria Wilcher, TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #6
Victoria was maimed because of her own kin. baldguy Jun 2014 #12
..and their four-legged shredding machines. TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #16
So, you are advocating the murder of a member of my family baldguy Jun 2014 #19
What are you babbling about? TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #22
"Those dogs got off easy..." Considering those dogs were KILLED, baldguy Jun 2014 #24
My money is on the lovely little girl, and not the dogs. TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #25
And would you finally admit you would kill my dog as well? baldguy Jun 2014 #28
Make sure it sticks to gnawing the red rubber ball in the background TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #29
So you acknowledge that the responsibility is on the owners, then. Scootaloo Jun 2014 #30
Bullshit! The BSLs you support take away well-behaved, properly socialized dogs from their families baldguy Jun 2014 #31
Alcoa or Reynolds? TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #37
You support BSLs. BSLs kill innocent dogs & deprives their humans of loving family members. baldguy Jun 2014 #39
I don't know what a BSL is, never heard of it, TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #50
Breed Specific Legislation, which goes along with fearing or hating all dogs of a particular style uppityperson Jun 2014 #60
A family friend has a son with no penis or testicles, thanks to a Pitt bull joeglow3 Jun 2014 #98
How is that *MY* dog's fault? baldguy Jun 2014 #106
How is Sandy Hook *MY* guns fault? joeglow3 Jun 2014 #107
Train your gun NOT to shoot someone. baldguy Jun 2014 #108
So, you oppose all gun legislation? joeglow3 Jun 2014 #110
Far from it. All guns should be registered & all gun owners should be licensed. baldguy Jun 2014 #114
So, you put pit bulls up there with constitutional rights? joeglow3 Jun 2014 #118
You put the "rights" of inanimate objects over those of living, breathing, FEELING creatures? baldguy Jun 2014 #120
No. I put them both down extremely low. joeglow3 Jun 2014 #121
But you're willing to allow humans to continue to be massacred by guns. baldguy Jun 2014 #123
Real numbers don't tell the story joeglow3 Jun 2014 #128
Real number do tell the real story. baldguy Jun 2014 #130
I never said keep all the guns joeglow3 Jun 2014 #134
Guns can be locked up Boudica the Lyoness Jul 2014 #222
Looks like a cute dog. MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #33
Awww, cutie pie. roody Jun 2014 #40
Yes, she is. baldguy Jun 2014 #42
This message was self-deleted by its author Mugu Jun 2014 #47
Love her ears! get the red out Jun 2014 #54
we've been looking for that dog! snooper2 Jun 2014 #57
Awwwww BigL Jun 2014 #78
She is a beauty malokvale77 Jun 2014 #96
There are no bad guns, only bad gun owners. joeglow3 Jun 2014 #99
This sweetie looks just like my neighbor's Pit that chased off some creep following me home IVoteDFL Jun 2014 #183
That is EXACTLY what my redneck neighbor said about his gun. joeglow3 Jun 2014 #97
Creepy comment. "Kin?" Like "those people?" Really? DirkGently Jun 2014 #61
I don't agree it's entirely due to their upbringing. hollowdweller Jun 2014 #8
As you imply, we humans should breed dogs for companionship and behavioral traits... targetpractice Jun 2014 #15
You can breed for temperament. You can't ensure temperament by DirkGently Jun 2014 #63
You bring up a good point about socialization beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #72
"Hate me all you want, I'm gonna love you right back... Demo_Chris Jun 2014 #9
Does it include photos of children mauled by pit bulls? LisaL Jun 2014 #10
. baldguy Jun 2014 #34
Pit Bulls are like firearms. dilby Jun 2014 #11
30 vs 30,000 baldguy Jun 2014 #17
Compare number of pit bulls in the US to number of Firearms. dilby Jun 2014 #18
You can't even multiply correctly. baldguy Jun 2014 #20
No I think my figures look about right. dilby Jun 2014 #41
A gun death by suicide is less dead than a gun death by murder? Sorry, it don't work that way. baldguy Jun 2014 #43
I think that is the argument gun owners always make. dilby Jun 2014 #46
Guns can not be trained not to shoot. 10,000 kids are injured each year by guns, with 500 dead. baldguy Jun 2014 #48
Are you actually comparing a gun to a living being? etherealtruth Jun 2014 #111
People are "just like firearms" in exactly the same way. DirkGently Jun 2014 #66
That is true and it's why I don't leave my children alone with strangers. dilby Jun 2014 #67
Nor would anyone argue for leaving them with a strange dog. DirkGently Jun 2014 #68
This again??? Really?? n-t Logical Jun 2014 #13
Children probably shouldn't be around dogs capable of such immense bite pressures. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #14
Yeah, because a spike-studded collar just radiates cute and cuddly. scarletwoman Jun 2014 #26
Ha! Good point! elias49 Jun 2014 #44
A poor choice artistically, considering the intended message. Throd Jun 2014 #45
Again, judging individuals based on what they look like is irrational. baldguy Jun 2014 #49
Maybe if all whatchamacallit Jun 2014 #27
Way more inspirational for children than TV MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #32
. baldguy Jun 2014 #35
Really? De Leonist Jun 2014 #69
Not everybody is a dog whisperer cpwm17 Jun 2014 #87
Misbehaving ? De Leonist Jun 2014 #92
What might that dog have done to... say, a toddler? nt MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #203
Hard to say..... De Leonist Jun 2014 #206
I knew this thread would go this way. flvegan Jun 2014 #36
Reminds me of nothing as much as the Heritage Foundation panel on Benghazi: baldguy Jun 2014 #38
Very poor argument. DetlefK Jun 2014 #51
99.9999% of Muslims in the world do not want to kill you. baldguy Jun 2014 #102
Do have hard numbers? DetlefK Jun 2014 #205
here is a rational voice on the topic of kids and pits DrDan Jun 2014 #52
Bad logic, up and down. Any large dog can do harm. DirkGently Jun 2014 #58
I have wondered for some time - which group originated this "you cannot identify" meme DrDan Jun 2014 #62
Eck. Cheap shot. And it's simply the truth regarding pit bulls, like it or not. DirkGently Jun 2014 #65
Of course whenever you want to post a media account of a courageous pit whatchamacallit Jun 2014 #71
Not anything I ever post DirkGently Jun 2014 #74
I don't ascribe concepts like 'evil' to animals whatchamacallit Jun 2014 #76
And you can't tell either biology or instinct from a dog's appearance. DirkGently Jun 2014 #79
So my neighbor was wrong about what kind of dog he had? whatchamacallit Jun 2014 #85
So if this one awful dog was a "Pit Bull," you have proved something? DirkGently Jun 2014 #89
I don't remember any cases of a poodle ripping out the tongue of a child, or any other breed for DrDan Jun 2014 #147
Don't you know some folks don't want to hear that? theHandpuppet Jun 2014 #155
their excuses are getting lamer and lamer . . . as the attacks pile up DrDan Jun 2014 #157
Well, Golden Retrievers sometimes tear children's legs off. DirkGently Jun 2014 #174
Because focusing on nebulous claims of "breed" gives you selective memory? DirkGently Jun 2014 #173
I don't believe anyone has claimed ALL attacks were from pit bulls DrDan Jun 2014 #175
Okay, Dr. Backpedal. What exactly DO you claim? DirkGently Jun 2014 #176
the facts are clear - pits do MORE than their share of bites, deaths, maulings, and tragedy DrDan Jun 2014 #177
Buut .. none of your "facts" have held up yet. DirkGently Jun 2014 #180
So your horrific anecdote proves a case DirkGently Jun 2014 #182
How about a husky eating the head of a child? uppityperson Jun 2014 #194
Yep. Agree. Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2014 #81
The dog in the Bakersfield attack was a lab/chow mix. Jenoch Jun 2014 #127
That's right -- thanks. Chow Chows can be bitey DirkGently Jun 2014 #135
Animals don't just "get angry" unless your asshole kid sticks a pen in his ear adigal Jun 2014 #154
oh really . . . DrDan Jun 2014 #156
You are taking one attack, which has extraordinary circumstances, nd painting a whole breed adigal Jun 2014 #158
that "one" pit bull attack occurs daily - and typically a child is the victim DrDan Jun 2014 #160
Sigh. They don't attack more than other dogs. adigal Jun 2014 #163
the injuries are significantly more serious, hence the increased scrutiny DrDan Jun 2014 #170
I do understand that. I hate what happens to pits in the wrong hands. adigal Jun 2014 #186
We had a family friend have their 3 year old's penis and testicles torn off by a pitt bull joeglow3 Jun 2014 #179
I pulled a fox terrier off the genitals of a friend's toddler. uppityperson Jun 2014 #195
With the pit bull, there was no "in time" joeglow3 Jun 2014 #196
I have students who characterize an entire race of people as bad or lazy because of a few kids adigal Jun 2014 #161
no hatred or fear - just able to see the violence and havoc these dog create daily DrDan Jun 2014 #162
Please don't make assumptions that I don't adigal Jun 2014 #165
It's the same logic as all bigotry. DirkGently Jun 2014 #198
And the original post reads: "Children Need Pit Bulls" TheCowsCameHome Jun 2014 #166
In England, they were the Nanny Dog adigal Jun 2014 #167
Do you have a citation for that? XemaSab Jun 2014 #199
Yep, all those mauled "asshole kid"s had it coming, right? nt Union Scribe Jun 2014 #209
I wish more could be done get the red out Jun 2014 #53
I volunteer at the local Humane Shelter. dballance Jun 2014 #55
May you have a million blessings for your work. Thank you. n/t adigal Jun 2014 #168
Dear Pit Bull haters.... De Leonist Jun 2014 #56
Yeah I've met several whatchamacallit Jun 2014 #59
I'm sure that was a sad and horrific experience for your son and wife to go through.... De Leonist Jun 2014 #64
I remember the neighbor getting the dog as a puppy whatchamacallit Jun 2014 #70
I was savagely attacked by a Great Dane when I was 17. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #73
Were you maimed? whatchamacallit Jun 2014 #75
Yes, but slightly. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #77
Sorry to hear that whatchamacallit Jun 2014 #80
My world view is constantly evolving. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #84
Indeed. The mythology of Pit Bull superpowers. DirkGently Jun 2014 #83
The Dane that attacked me was an intact male, a pregnant female was on the premises. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #90
That seems the one pattern that is repeated. DirkGently Jun 2014 #95
Your posts upthread are outstanding. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #100
Thanks. Rather avoid protracted arguments, but DirkGently Jun 2014 #109
Your willingness to speak up makes me want to do the same. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #117
How do you know that's a pit bull? XemaSab Jun 2014 #126
Bless you!!! Your post restores my faith in mankind. n/t adigal Jun 2014 #153
And I invite you to sit down with the son of a family friend of ours joeglow3 Jun 2014 #210
Ugh....I don't honestly know what to say to that De Leonist Jun 2014 #215
That is a point pit bull supporters try to use joeglow3 Jun 2014 #216
I don't deny that..... De Leonist Jun 2014 #219
Do you have a link to the claim that most pit bulls are automatically put down? pnwmom Jun 2014 #82
A friend had 2 mixed breed dogs of different physical compositions. Guess which one bit, was deemed uppityperson Jun 2014 #86
I have rescued hundreds of pitbulls and the only dog that ever bit one of my kids adigal Jun 2014 #151
These threads always end the same way War Horse Jun 2014 #93
They certainly are High Maintainance...... De Leonist Jun 2014 #181
I suspect you are right War Horse Jun 2014 #191
No one, child or adult, needs an assault dog. nt Llewlladdwr Jun 2014 #94
Are you serious ? De Leonist Jun 2014 #200
I've done a 180 on pitbulls... WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #103
You are a wonderful person! etherealtruth Jun 2014 #112
Is that sarcasm? WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #115
I have a pitbull rescue etherealtruth Jun 2014 #144
"Only a punk would hurt a cat or dog." WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #201
Thanks etherealtruth Jun 2014 #207
You are one of those rare people that make me think there is still hope for the human species. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #116
Well, balls, I think I should quit posting for the day on that note. WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #119
The injuries inflicted upon me by animals pale in comparison to the damage done by humans. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #122
I'll leave you with one more before I turn in for the night... WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #124
A local guy here in Dallas... malokvale77 Jun 2014 #104
To the people who want to ban Pit Bulls: How would that work, exactly? beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #113
My family is dogsitting a pitbull for a friend, and he's one of the sweetest dogs I've met killbotfactory Jun 2014 #125
in our local shelter, 50 of 60 available dogs are pitbull mixes "surrendered by owner" kwassa Jun 2014 #129
Maybe you should ask the owners. Some people just shouldn't be allowed to have a dog. baldguy Jun 2014 #131
The dogs are not victims. kwassa Jun 2014 #132
Shelter dogs are indeed victims. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #139
It is one hell of coincidence, then, that all these dogs given up are pit bull mixes ...... kwassa Jun 2014 #192
They got them for a fashion accessory. roody Jun 2014 #146
Because of ignorance like seen on this thread and landlords who are idiots adigal Jun 2014 #152
Because bad owners seek them out to begin with? DirkGently Jun 2014 #184
Whatever. Not a dog I will get for my 7-year-old. kwassa Jun 2014 #193
Do you want to explain the "real" reason? DirkGently Jun 2014 #197
I don't know what the problem with these dogs is. kwassa Jun 2014 #204
"These dogs" = "those people." Judging by looks is just bigotry. DirkGently Jun 2014 #208
Again, +++++++++++ for your well stated civil posts. uppityperson Jun 2014 #213
Some of the latest victims theHandpuppet Jun 2014 #140
Prove that those dogs were pits! XemaSab Jun 2014 #143
Says someone with an OP quoting Clifton. flvegan Jun 2014 #217
Why do you like pit bulls? XemaSab Jun 2014 #218
Why do you hate them? flvegan Jun 2014 #220
The hits just keep on comin' theHandpuppet Jun 2014 #172
ANYONE Jenoch Jun 2014 #141
As a child I was attacked by a pitbull Separation Jun 2014 #142
In Georgia, they are not allowed to be adopted, only rescued adigal Jun 2014 #148
No they don't. NCTraveler Jun 2014 #169
I have big dogs gwheezie Jun 2014 #178
The hell they do. Owl Jun 2014 #202
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