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RainDog

(28,784 posts)
61. He was talking about drugs here, not the mafia
Mon Jun 23, 2014, 02:19 AM
Jun 2014

In the general sense of the issue of drugs. Someone above mentioned the mafia aside from the context of a statement made to bolster bureaucrats in the drug war at a time when this nation is undergoing a review of drug policy.

This really has nothing to do with the mafia, outside of the reality that, after alcohol prohibition was lifted, the mafia moved to heroin distribution.

There is a whole body of work about the issue of harm reduction as a strategy to deal with substance use/abuse.

Francis is denying the validity of the Portuguese model to say that drugs are evil, etc. He's denying decades of social science that demonstrates benefit from the move away from demonizing substances, to a look at the social problems that often motivate different behaviors.

Interestingly, more than a few scientists reject the addiction model in relation to drugs or any other activity as it is now understood as "common wisdom" from those who sought to deal with behavioral addiction issues by the term "illness" rather than "evil" or "sin." This move, beyond a religious blame and shame model, has helped many people - because it's a frame that moves beyond concepts of "good and evil" in relation to human health, in the same way we have long moved beyond blaming demon possession for epileptic seizures.

The evolution in this thought - and, more importantly, the corrective to taking these ideas and creating an industry dedicated to them (the "recovery" and "disease" models for addiction), is to look at environmental factors in relation to behaviors labeled "addictions." This is scary to some people who deal with addiction issues because it's easier to believe "all or nothing" - even when it's false. We see this in religion and in addiction issues.

The most forward-thinking scientists in this area see addiction as behavior that interacts with environment in specific places and/or times, not as an overarching ever-present state (i.e. the difference between "recovery" and always "in recovery&quot .

Carl Hart talks about the addiction model as incorrect because it is site-dependent behavior, connected to a lack of options.

This is what is also called "set and setting" for those who experiment with drugs, tho they wouldn't necessarily make the connection to what Hart is saying. This is about treating powerful substances with respect - what was considered "sacred" in the past - as a way to promote responsibility within the person - but also responsibility for a society to create conditions that do not foster drug use, which the same society turns around and criminalizes.

When authoritarian approaches are taken, studies indicate this leads to greater drug use. Labeling drugs "evil" is authoritarian because it appeals to shame and blame, not to rational discussion.

Stanton Peele, in 1975, talked about a reality that no drug is addictive per se. Instead, addiction is a set of behaviors that can be based upon individual responses. Someone can be "addicted" to religion or to a feeling of love when they're with another person.

To call drugs evil is simply.. stupid. It's so backwards, so far behind every bit of work that looks at behaviors over the 20th c. See, this is what I don't get. People think religion has some divine guidance - but, if so, why is it so wrong on issues that can be looked at dispassionately (beyond sex, say, which, to tell you the truth, is a subject about which an abstinent person or a virgin has nothing to say to anyone, imo, as a "expert&quot .

There are levels of discourse that go on in society. "Common knowledge" or "wisdom" is more about maintaining social control than investigating claims. From this, we get the idea that complex human behaviors can be reduced to the interaction of dopamine and receptors... and the belief that someday someone will find the "gene" for this or that.

That's not going to happen with any behavior that takes place in an environment outside of a petri dish, if even there. People want absolutes, so they go with religion, or they put science into the box that holds religious povs that knowledge is eternal, unchanging, and absolute. This isn't reality.

Reality is far, far messier, far more forgiving of error, far more willing to look at a subject without boxing it in with absolutes.

I don't think it's mere coincidence that changes are taking place in American society regarding its view of the issue of drug policy and Francis makes this a moment to call drugs "evil."

ymmv.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Is Francis' position different from Obama's? MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #1
The pope's position is the same as Reagan's not Obama's. bravenak Jun 2014 #2
Obama wants to legalize recreational drugs? nt MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #3
You know dang well i said the pope and Reagan's positions are the same. bravenak Jun 2014 #9
You stated that the Pope's position is different than Obama's. MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #11
How are they the same? bravenak Jun 2014 #20
If it's not evil, than why put people in prison for it? MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #21
If Obama thought it was "evil," he wouldn't have done this. Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #26
So Obama asked for marijuana to be legalized? MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #28
Marijuana on the road to legalization, of course time will tell but this is certainly a step in the Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #31
fwiw RainDog Jun 2014 #33
Certainly, one of us is vapid MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #34
well, I would never say that about you RainDog Jun 2014 #35
"demonstration of intentional vapidity"... SidDithers Jun 2014 #39
What did Obama do? You posted something Holder said Obama said. merrily Jun 2014 #53
Sometimes saying is doing and if Obama hadn't said it, I doubt Holder would've done it. n/t Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #54
actually no it is not dsc Jun 2014 #30
I agree partially, but I don't know if sloth is evil. It's a deadly sin for merrily Jun 2014 #55
No. bravenak Jun 2014 #36
Unfortunately Obama's position on the legalization of recreational drugs is the same as Reagan's. Nye Bevan Jun 2014 #22
No it's not RainDog Jun 2014 #32
At first I thought this was joke RainDog Jun 2014 #5
They never are funny. bravenak Jun 2014 #10
Obama stated marijuana is safer than alcohol. RainDog Jun 2014 #4
So Obama has said recreational drugs should be legalized? MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #6
Nothing I said has to do with Obama RainDog Jun 2014 #8
I don't know because he's never spoken on the subject RainDog Jun 2014 #14
Has Obama told the DOJ to stop arresting Americans, nationwide, for using MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #18
I don't think the Pope is trying to make things better RainDog Jun 2014 #23
The President can tell DOJ to stop pot prosecutions. nt MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #25
The Obama White House calls drug abuse a public health issue RainDog Jun 2014 #29
How does your Frankie Two Shoes compare to Obama on LGBT equality. Obama supports equality. Bluenorthwest Jun 2014 #41
I disagree with Pope Francis on many things MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #42
Note that I did not ask you if you agreed, I asked you to compare and contrast Obama's views with Bluenorthwest Jun 2014 #43
Then I hope you keep doing what you're doing MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #64
"He also talks about women's roles as barefoot and pregnant" Fortinbras Armstrong Jun 2014 #45
Oh, he's decided to join the 21st century RainDog Jun 2014 #48
"Anyone who supports this church supports the subjugation of women by default." Fortinbras Armstrong Jun 2014 #69
You don't seem to have a problem with oversimplification RainDog Jun 2014 #72
You accuse me of oversimplification, Fortinbras Armstrong Jun 2014 #73
actually, I believe you're the one who started down that road RainDog Jun 2014 #74
No, YOU were when you said Fortinbras Armstrong Jun 2014 #75
Colloquial versus doctrinal speech RainDog Jun 2014 #76
I think we are finished Fortinbras Armstrong Jun 2014 #77
Thanks! RainDog Jun 2014 #78
You know i agree with you 100 percent on this. bravenak Jun 2014 #7
do you have a link to the AK thing? RainDog Jun 2014 #12
Sorry, i forgot i should link it. bravenak Jun 2014 #15
That's exciting, bravenak! Sissyk Jun 2014 #50
Thank you, thats so nice of you to say. bravenak Jun 2014 #56
oh yeah Orange/Black is amazing...must see tv! randys1 Jun 2014 #51
Drugs aren't evil and drug addiction isn't evil. Drugs are nothing but inanimate objects, Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #13
And, as some linguists and anthropologists have stated RainDog Jun 2014 #16
Precisely and maybe that's what the Pope is really scared of, Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #19
I hope he has excommunicated those pederast priests RainDog Jun 2014 #24
He said that clergy preying on children is like a satanic mass, but I don't know if he has Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #27
I know the church shielded them from prosecution or arrest RainDog Jun 2014 #37
"cannabis may have been integral to the development of Judeo-Christian beliefs" Fortinbras Armstrong Jun 2014 #46
What's your evidence for this? RainDog Jun 2014 #47
Here's the basis for my statement RainDog Jun 2014 #52
So, basically, it comes down to a guess about the meaning of a word in Hebrew Fortinbras Armstrong Jun 2014 #70
sure RainDog Jun 2014 #71
Any further thoughts on this? RainDog Jun 2014 #59
"medical use" skips really fast over to "recreational drug." UTUSN Jun 2014 #17
What makes you think that Pope Photo-Op cares about harm reduction?... SidDithers Jun 2014 #38
... RainDog Jun 2014 #65
Look any institution that claims that its leader is infallible malaise Jun 2014 #40
As I said in another thread, it is all about the competition n2doc Jun 2014 #44
He's siding with reactionaries RainDog Jun 2014 #66
k and r--thank you for this. niyad Jun 2014 #49
Yeah, he should never have excommunicated the Mafia. Bad move, that. nt Hekate Jun 2014 #57
The reason the mafia became so powerful RainDog Jun 2014 #58
I'm aware of that. But what does it have to do with a religious figure damning them? Hekate Jun 2014 #60
He was talking about drugs here, not the mafia RainDog Jun 2014 #61
This is the context of the OP RainDog Jun 2014 #62
The pope's position is in opposition to Latin American policy RainDog Jun 2014 #63
Wake me up when they switch to sacramental grape juice. KamaAina Jun 2014 #67
now, now RainDog Jun 2014 #68
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