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Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)

70. I would argue just the opposite. That the clear enemy in public consciousness...

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 10:46 PM

Jun 2014

Is the politician. Politicians have always been hated and very often for just cause; but often for simply existing as a politician.

What entities haven't really been hated by the general public? Those which either don't really exist at all, they are clandestine, or those which veil their contempt under the guise of nationalism. I think it's easier to see through the actions of an individual. It's much harder to see through the actions of a large agency like the NSA or CIA. Yes, the NSA and CIA are made up of people. But kind of in a similar way to how the human body is made up of cells. It's the body which possesses the force and intelligence, even though it could not exist without the cells.

The same goes for these agencies. They aren't just collections of human beings. They are mechanisms with a driving force. What is the force driving the NSA or CIA?

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NSA says it has no record of Snowden challenging spying [View all] Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 OP

"And *this* time, we're telling the truth" MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #1

I'll go with the Martin Luther quote gratuitous Jun 2014 #4

"But who knows whether it is so?" G_j Jun 2014 #6

Snowden, the master hacking genius, couldn't even save a single email? Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #5

Maybe they were on the IRS hard drives. former9thward Jun 2014 #18

So you're buying the GOP line that the IRS intentionally lost those "troublesome" emails? Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #20

I think that was a joke? If not....we are worse than the GOP at this point. nt kelliekat44 Jun 2014 #31

What would the IRS say in the same situation when auditing a taxpayer? former9thward Jun 2014 #37

No, it just.means if you believe the government you are a sucker AngryAmish Jun 2014 #86

You can always believe your government. ... spin Jun 2014 #110

Did anyone say to believe in the government? Anyone? randome Jun 2014 #125

Why would emails from 2009-early2011 be 'troublesome' but emails from 2011-2012 be NOT troublesome blm Jun 2014 #32

You are very forgiving to the IRS. former9thward Jun 2014 #36

That was a Bush appointee running it then. But, I asked you a simple question relevant to your post. blm Jun 2014 #40

When we know the full story I can give you an answer. former9thward Jun 2014 #41

Seems easy enough. Why would 2009-early2011 emails lost be relevant to the case Issa was making? blm Jun 2014 #42

He was given unlimited access to *documents* MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #47

Ummm manny....he can save the individual emails and even print them out for... uponit7771 Jun 2014 #57

That's all monitored, and he'd have no excuse if caught MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #63

So many excuses for the perp. DCBob Jun 2014 #92

It's very telling, don't you think? nt MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #104

This message was self-deleted by its author brush Jun 2014 #133

LOL Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #85

Yep...my horseshit meter is pegged, as well. He's either an idiot or a liar. Maybe both...? nt MADem Jun 2014 #54

And all Snowden has to do is produce a single e-mail to prove them wrong...nt SidDithers Jun 2014 #45

Yep, and he wont cause he aint got them DCBob Jun 2014 #93

I believe! The Traveler Jun 2014 #103

They can't find anything & he can't produce anything.... Historic NY Jun 2014 #2

we don't know that he can't produce anything grasswire Jun 2014 #9

good point, its possible greenwald may be saving it for the movie also JI7 Jun 2014 #11

Been holding my breath since April when NSA first said they had no record of any Fla Dem Jun 2014 #113

the question about training being used as evidence still makes me laugh JI7 Jun 2014 #3

It wasn't a question about training. grasswire Jun 2014 #10

Yes, it was a question about training. Read the email. eom MohRokTah Jun 2014 #13

and here I thought you were smarter than this. grasswire Jun 2014 #26

Huh MohRokTah Jun 2014 #28

Immediately that poster goes to a personal insult because he has Cha Jun 2014 #35

this uponit7771 Jun 2014 #59

The Question about Training.. Cha Jun 2014 #38

Lol! Katashi_itto Jun 2014 #7

If he sent it from the work email system, probably exchange server LiberalArkie Jun 2014 #8

But not saving it locally is counter to everything Snowden says and does. MohRokTah Jun 2014 #14

I GUARANTEE you grasswire Jun 2014 #27

I GUARANTEE you MohRokTah Jun 2014 #30

Yeap uponit7771 Jun 2014 #67

take it to the bank VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #105

Greenwald said he moved up his 'fireworks show' to the end of this month. randome Jun 2014 #12

Do you think you could present your protest in a mature fashion? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #16

Not any longer. randome Jun 2014 #21

"Not any longer." - So maybe you should stop posting on the matter... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #24

Use IGNORE if it bugs you. Don't try to censor other people's speech with suggestions that it's MADem Jun 2014 #61

Arguably, the person who tries to belittle the discussion is the censor. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #65

The person who characterizes an opposing view as "belittling" could be called the censor, too. MADem Jun 2014 #71

My argument is not one of relativity but exactly the opposite... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #73

When you tell someone that their argument isn't serious enough, you're belittling them. MADem Jun 2014 #75

I think people who mock Dick Cheney with all the cheeky names and "hilarious" images... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #76

Well, you can "not like it" all you want, but you can't censor it. That's not your charge. MADem Jun 2014 #87

I don't think you understand what I am saying... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #94

Criticizing the way people debate, instead of dealing with the substance of the objection, MADem Jun 2014 #117

You still don't get it. The person you're defending made it clear they aren't here to discuss... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #118

Yes, and I 'insult' those who think the Moon landings were faked. randome Jun 2014 #121

You don't need to qualify your insults with quotation marks. You are insulting people. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #132

You express yourself well but you're wrong. randome Jun 2014 #136

You keep doing it! And you wonder why people look askance at what you have to say! MADem Jun 2014 #144

I won't avoid the point at all, actually. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #146

Those points I made are the points others made, upthread. MADem Jun 2014 #147

Maybe you have noticed that I place a lot of stock in how someone presents their arguments... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #150

No smoking gun Andy823 Jun 2014 #34

You realize your argument here is self-destructive, right? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #39

I read this from a duer awhile back. NCTraveler Jun 2014 #95

What discussion Andy823 Jun 2014 #120

Maybe you missed the point Andy823 Jun 2014 #119

Why should I trust the agency to be truthful? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #15

Snowden is an isolated loner who desperately wants to be a superhero. randome Jun 2014 #17

Again, construct your argument in a fashion that doesn't make it sound like grade school rumor. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #22

It is NOT 'serious'. It's laughable. randome Jun 2014 #25

That's a fairly outlandish argument. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #29

No, the 'debate' is over whether or not the NSA spies on Americans. randome Jun 2014 #43

Again, the debate is over the legality and ethics of metadata collection. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #44

'Again' the debate is about metadata collection? First time you mentioned that in this thread. randome Jun 2014 #46

"Not one person." - How in the name of reason do you actually know that definitively? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #50

My only 'agenda' is to stop from being depressed at others' gullibility. randome Jun 2014 #53

I won't concede to your argument that he's lonely or isolated or pathetic. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #60

See my sig line. randome Jun 2014 #64

Okay, so for the sake of the discussion we are having, let us say what you're arguing is true... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #66

Of course I don't trust them. They're run by human beings! randome Jun 2014 #68

I would argue just the opposite. That the clear enemy in public consciousness... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #70

here we go yet again! grasswire Jun 2014 #116

It's the truth. randome Jun 2014 #123

it's your characterization and your opinion. grasswire Jun 2014 #129

Because there is nothing that S&G have shown that is not subject to interpretation. randome Jun 2014 #131

Honestly, why is it at all relevant that she pole dances? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #135

Fine. He couldn't establish a relationship with either men or women! randome Jun 2014 #138

That's actually much better. Thank you. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #139

That's because all of the evidence ... NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #48

It used to be amusing. Now it's become pathetic. randome Jun 2014 #58

Agreed. NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #72

There is a pattern here. MADem Jun 2014 #89

because they are Ideologues and Anarchists VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #107

I'm an anarchist? That's news to me. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #109

that wasnt the only option suggested was it? VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #111

Since that poster was talking about me, you must think I am both. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #112

if the shoe fits... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #114

First off, I am by self proclamation not an anarchist. So that is moot. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #115

Some things are self evident... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #141

The only thing that is self-evident is the existence of your own subjective reality. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #142

took an awful lot of words just to say that..... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #156

I can't help but notice you keep telling people to STFU. You aren't answering any of their points, MADem Jun 2014 #88

No, I never said everyone else is not serious. I made specific objections... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #90

You aren't refuting any of the points made. MADem Jun 2014 #145

The semantic structure of an argument is intertwined with the conditions. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #148

The points that have been made are quite straightforward. MADem Jun 2014 #149

I didn't want to engage in the childish banter of a group which has an ideological drive... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #152

If you "don't want to engage," then just back away. You have options. MADem Jun 2014 #153

And again, from a very wise duer. NCTraveler Jun 2014 #96

How am I belittling these posters? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #97

In the exact same manner that you tried to claim belittlement. NCTraveler Jun 2014 #99

No, no, no. You don't get off the hook for this one... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #100

Is that on alternate days? On other days they seem to be TRAITORS! Warren Stupidity Jun 2014 #106

When there is no evidence, only vague insinuations, of course the narrative turns to personalities. randome Jun 2014 #130

"That's just human nature." Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #137

In this case, I don't see it as 'unhealthy' or 'irrational' to expect proof from these two bozos. randome Jun 2014 #140

But you did not answer his question Mojorabbit Jun 2014 #143

We're going into Year 2 here! randome Jun 2014 #155

because Obama n/t Enrique Jun 2014 #19

So? NSA's never reported what Bush knew about bin Laden before 9-11. Octafish Jun 2014 #23

Bush and cheney should be punished for their negligence. Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2014 #55

That will be ignored, it goes against the narrative being played out by desperate people. Rex Jun 2014 #78

The NSA also hasn't stopped a single terrorist attack by their own admission. riderinthestorm Jun 2014 #33

The NSA never claimed ... NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #49

But notice how much congress now is concerned about the NSA?? Snowden did a GREAT thing! n-t Logical Jun 2014 #62

Most of these agencies have little credibility with me. They lie and distort so damn RKP5637 Jun 2014 #51

Doesn't matter...Wizner already moved the goalposts Blue_Tires Jun 2014 #52

Bottom line, though.. "Boy Genius" is a liar. Cha Jun 2014 #82

Though I don't care for Snowdon, I am just flat disgusted by the NSA. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2014 #56

The NSA does not represent the people of this country. L0oniX Jun 2014 #69

This again? Went thru this identical bulls*** 2 weeks ago elias49 Jun 2014 #74

Because the first FOIA was answered.....did you not read the article? msanthrope Jun 2014 #98

Well if you can't trust the people spying on you, who can you trust? Skip Intro Jun 2014 #77

Well, if you can't trust the people ... NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #80

All Snowden has to do is.. Produce. But, he can't because he lied. Cha Jun 2014 #83

This from an agency illustrious for its truth telling and openness. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2014 #79

Duh. SNOWDEN doesn't even have a record of Snowden challenging the NSA program Number23 Jun 2014 #81

Actually, scoring by catching "lies" seems like a losing tactic for you on this one. Pholus Jun 2014 #84

I was told multiple times that this was Snowdens big gotcha. NCTraveler Jun 2014 #91

Yep it's all a bunch of BS Andy823 Jun 2014 #122

I wouldn't believe the NSA if they happened to accidentally tell the truth! Zen Democrat Jun 2014 #101

In my humble opinion Stargazer09 Jun 2014 #102

Right now, this OP has 107 responses and 8 recs MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #108

Really Andy823 Jun 2014 #124

I think most DUers (and others) trust Greenwald and Snowden far more than the federal government. MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #126

Stay tuned for another year? randome Jun 2014 #127

Exactly Andy823 Jun 2014 #162

NSA = No Credibility cantbeserious Jun 2014 #128

I wonder if they're going to say that they lost a bunch of emails when some individual user's hard hughee99 Jun 2014 #134

Nope different agencies have different backup methods. Different parts of different agencies have stevenleser Jun 2014 #163

Yes, the IT had this policy hughee99 Jun 2014 #164

The IRS' email is not a particularly critical system. Makes sense its the last one to be upgraded stevenleser Jun 2014 #165

Interesting. Useless, but interesting. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2014 #151

Oh,I believe, I believe,I believe.... bobGandolf Jun 2014 #154

Release all sources, agents, methods, and revenue streams BURN IT. TheKentuckian Jun 2014 #157

The NSA are proven liars. nt woo me with science Jun 2014 #158

Yes, and without a serious good faith effort to go through regular channels, Snowden is a criminal. stevenleser Jun 2014 #159

We searched our secret documents and found nothing that implicates us of wrong doing Taitertots Jun 2014 #160

Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.. And the NSA would NEVER lie to us... 99Forever Jun 2014 #161