General Discussion

MADem

(135,425 posts)

87. Well, you can "not like it" all you want, but you can't censor it. That's not your charge.

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:32 AM

Jun 2014

And if you don't like "rallying," -- mindless is in the eye, if not the mind, of the beholder -- you're on the wrong website.

I don't care what Dick Cheney thinks of me, either--but I do care what I think of him. And I think he's a fucking asshole and I'll sing it from the highest rooftop.

Your argument has limits, too--"I don't like what you say and how you say it" is pretty weak sauce, there. "Everyone's stupid but MEEEEEE" doesn't cut it, either.

Of course there are things that I would not "endorse" -- that doesn't mean that I think the appropriate response to those arguments is "SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!!! YOU'RE STUPID!!!! YOU'RE MINDLESSLY RALLYING!!!!! SHUT UP!!!!!!!" That is--wrapped up in all those words you've been using--what you are saying, in essence.

Again, IGNORE is YOUR FRIEND. It beats trying to censor people.

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NSA says it has no record of Snowden challenging spying [View all] Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 OP

"And *this* time, we're telling the truth" MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #1

I'll go with the Martin Luther quote gratuitous Jun 2014 #4

"But who knows whether it is so?" G_j Jun 2014 #6

Snowden, the master hacking genius, couldn't even save a single email? Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #5

Maybe they were on the IRS hard drives. former9thward Jun 2014 #18

So you're buying the GOP line that the IRS intentionally lost those "troublesome" emails? Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #20

I think that was a joke? If not....we are worse than the GOP at this point. nt kelliekat44 Jun 2014 #31

What would the IRS say in the same situation when auditing a taxpayer? former9thward Jun 2014 #37

No, it just.means if you believe the government you are a sucker AngryAmish Jun 2014 #86

You can always believe your government. ... spin Jun 2014 #110

Did anyone say to believe in the government? Anyone? randome Jun 2014 #125

Why would emails from 2009-early2011 be 'troublesome' but emails from 2011-2012 be NOT troublesome blm Jun 2014 #32

You are very forgiving to the IRS. former9thward Jun 2014 #36

That was a Bush appointee running it then. But, I asked you a simple question relevant to your post. blm Jun 2014 #40

When we know the full story I can give you an answer. former9thward Jun 2014 #41

Seems easy enough. Why would 2009-early2011 emails lost be relevant to the case Issa was making? blm Jun 2014 #42

He was given unlimited access to *documents* MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #47

Ummm manny....he can save the individual emails and even print them out for... uponit7771 Jun 2014 #57

That's all monitored, and he'd have no excuse if caught MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #63

So many excuses for the perp. DCBob Jun 2014 #92

It's very telling, don't you think? nt MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #104

This message was self-deleted by its author brush Jun 2014 #133

LOL Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #85

Yep...my horseshit meter is pegged, as well. He's either an idiot or a liar. Maybe both...? nt MADem Jun 2014 #54

And all Snowden has to do is produce a single e-mail to prove them wrong...nt SidDithers Jun 2014 #45

Yep, and he wont cause he aint got them DCBob Jun 2014 #93

I believe! The Traveler Jun 2014 #103

They can't find anything & he can't produce anything.... Historic NY Jun 2014 #2

we don't know that he can't produce anything grasswire Jun 2014 #9

good point, its possible greenwald may be saving it for the movie also JI7 Jun 2014 #11

Been holding my breath since April when NSA first said they had no record of any Fla Dem Jun 2014 #113

the question about training being used as evidence still makes me laugh JI7 Jun 2014 #3

It wasn't a question about training. grasswire Jun 2014 #10

Yes, it was a question about training. Read the email. eom MohRokTah Jun 2014 #13

and here I thought you were smarter than this. grasswire Jun 2014 #26

Huh MohRokTah Jun 2014 #28

Immediately that poster goes to a personal insult because he has Cha Jun 2014 #35

this uponit7771 Jun 2014 #59

The Question about Training.. Cha Jun 2014 #38

Lol! Katashi_itto Jun 2014 #7

If he sent it from the work email system, probably exchange server LiberalArkie Jun 2014 #8

But not saving it locally is counter to everything Snowden says and does. MohRokTah Jun 2014 #14

I GUARANTEE you grasswire Jun 2014 #27

I GUARANTEE you MohRokTah Jun 2014 #30

Yeap uponit7771 Jun 2014 #67

take it to the bank VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #105

Greenwald said he moved up his 'fireworks show' to the end of this month. randome Jun 2014 #12

Do you think you could present your protest in a mature fashion? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #16

Not any longer. randome Jun 2014 #21

"Not any longer." - So maybe you should stop posting on the matter... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #24

Use IGNORE if it bugs you. Don't try to censor other people's speech with suggestions that it's MADem Jun 2014 #61

Arguably, the person who tries to belittle the discussion is the censor. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #65

The person who characterizes an opposing view as "belittling" could be called the censor, too. MADem Jun 2014 #71

My argument is not one of relativity but exactly the opposite... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #73

When you tell someone that their argument isn't serious enough, you're belittling them. MADem Jun 2014 #75

I think people who mock Dick Cheney with all the cheeky names and "hilarious" images... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #76

Well, you can "not like it" all you want, but you can't censor it. That's not your charge. MADem Jun 2014 #87

I don't think you understand what I am saying... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #94

Criticizing the way people debate, instead of dealing with the substance of the objection, MADem Jun 2014 #117

You still don't get it. The person you're defending made it clear they aren't here to discuss... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #118

Yes, and I 'insult' those who think the Moon landings were faked. randome Jun 2014 #121

You don't need to qualify your insults with quotation marks. You are insulting people. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #132

You express yourself well but you're wrong. randome Jun 2014 #136

You keep doing it! And you wonder why people look askance at what you have to say! MADem Jun 2014 #144

I won't avoid the point at all, actually. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #146

Those points I made are the points others made, upthread. MADem Jun 2014 #147

Maybe you have noticed that I place a lot of stock in how someone presents their arguments... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #150

No smoking gun Andy823 Jun 2014 #34

You realize your argument here is self-destructive, right? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #39

I read this from a duer awhile back. NCTraveler Jun 2014 #95

What discussion Andy823 Jun 2014 #120

Maybe you missed the point Andy823 Jun 2014 #119

Why should I trust the agency to be truthful? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #15

Snowden is an isolated loner who desperately wants to be a superhero. randome Jun 2014 #17

Again, construct your argument in a fashion that doesn't make it sound like grade school rumor. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #22

It is NOT 'serious'. It's laughable. randome Jun 2014 #25

That's a fairly outlandish argument. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #29

No, the 'debate' is over whether or not the NSA spies on Americans. randome Jun 2014 #43

Again, the debate is over the legality and ethics of metadata collection. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #44

'Again' the debate is about metadata collection? First time you mentioned that in this thread. randome Jun 2014 #46

"Not one person." - How in the name of reason do you actually know that definitively? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #50

My only 'agenda' is to stop from being depressed at others' gullibility. randome Jun 2014 #53

I won't concede to your argument that he's lonely or isolated or pathetic. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #60

See my sig line. randome Jun 2014 #64

Okay, so for the sake of the discussion we are having, let us say what you're arguing is true... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #66

Of course I don't trust them. They're run by human beings! randome Jun 2014 #68

I would argue just the opposite. That the clear enemy in public consciousness... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #70

here we go yet again! grasswire Jun 2014 #116

It's the truth. randome Jun 2014 #123

it's your characterization and your opinion. grasswire Jun 2014 #129

Because there is nothing that S&G have shown that is not subject to interpretation. randome Jun 2014 #131

Honestly, why is it at all relevant that she pole dances? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #135

Fine. He couldn't establish a relationship with either men or women! randome Jun 2014 #138

That's actually much better. Thank you. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #139

That's because all of the evidence ... NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #48

It used to be amusing. Now it's become pathetic. randome Jun 2014 #58

Agreed. NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #72

There is a pattern here. MADem Jun 2014 #89

because they are Ideologues and Anarchists VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #107

I'm an anarchist? That's news to me. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #109

that wasnt the only option suggested was it? VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #111

Since that poster was talking about me, you must think I am both. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #112

if the shoe fits... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #114

First off, I am by self proclamation not an anarchist. So that is moot. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #115

Some things are self evident... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #141

The only thing that is self-evident is the existence of your own subjective reality. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #142

took an awful lot of words just to say that..... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #156

I can't help but notice you keep telling people to STFU. You aren't answering any of their points, MADem Jun 2014 #88

No, I never said everyone else is not serious. I made specific objections... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #90

You aren't refuting any of the points made. MADem Jun 2014 #145

The semantic structure of an argument is intertwined with the conditions. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #148

The points that have been made are quite straightforward. MADem Jun 2014 #149

I didn't want to engage in the childish banter of a group which has an ideological drive... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #152

If you "don't want to engage," then just back away. You have options. MADem Jun 2014 #153

And again, from a very wise duer. NCTraveler Jun 2014 #96

How am I belittling these posters? Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #97

In the exact same manner that you tried to claim belittlement. NCTraveler Jun 2014 #99

No, no, no. You don't get off the hook for this one... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #100

Is that on alternate days? On other days they seem to be TRAITORS! Warren Stupidity Jun 2014 #106

When there is no evidence, only vague insinuations, of course the narrative turns to personalities. randome Jun 2014 #130

"That's just human nature." Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #137

In this case, I don't see it as 'unhealthy' or 'irrational' to expect proof from these two bozos. randome Jun 2014 #140

But you did not answer his question Mojorabbit Jun 2014 #143

We're going into Year 2 here! randome Jun 2014 #155

because Obama n/t Enrique Jun 2014 #19

So? NSA's never reported what Bush knew about bin Laden before 9-11. Octafish Jun 2014 #23

Bush and cheney should be punished for their negligence. Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2014 #55

That will be ignored, it goes against the narrative being played out by desperate people. Rex Jun 2014 #78

The NSA also hasn't stopped a single terrorist attack by their own admission. riderinthestorm Jun 2014 #33

The NSA never claimed ... NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #49

But notice how much congress now is concerned about the NSA?? Snowden did a GREAT thing! n-t Logical Jun 2014 #62

Most of these agencies have little credibility with me. They lie and distort so damn RKP5637 Jun 2014 #51

Doesn't matter...Wizner already moved the goalposts Blue_Tires Jun 2014 #52

Bottom line, though.. "Boy Genius" is a liar. Cha Jun 2014 #82

Though I don't care for Snowdon, I am just flat disgusted by the NSA. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2014 #56

The NSA does not represent the people of this country. L0oniX Jun 2014 #69

This again? Went thru this identical bulls*** 2 weeks ago elias49 Jun 2014 #74

Because the first FOIA was answered.....did you not read the article? msanthrope Jun 2014 #98

Well if you can't trust the people spying on you, who can you trust? Skip Intro Jun 2014 #77

Well, if you can't trust the people ... NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #80

All Snowden has to do is.. Produce. But, he can't because he lied. Cha Jun 2014 #83

This from an agency illustrious for its truth telling and openness. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2014 #79

Duh. SNOWDEN doesn't even have a record of Snowden challenging the NSA program Number23 Jun 2014 #81

Actually, scoring by catching "lies" seems like a losing tactic for you on this one. Pholus Jun 2014 #84

I was told multiple times that this was Snowdens big gotcha. NCTraveler Jun 2014 #91

Yep it's all a bunch of BS Andy823 Jun 2014 #122

I wouldn't believe the NSA if they happened to accidentally tell the truth! Zen Democrat Jun 2014 #101

In my humble opinion Stargazer09 Jun 2014 #102

Right now, this OP has 107 responses and 8 recs MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #108

Really Andy823 Jun 2014 #124

I think most DUers (and others) trust Greenwald and Snowden far more than the federal government. MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #126

Stay tuned for another year? randome Jun 2014 #127

Exactly Andy823 Jun 2014 #162

NSA = No Credibility cantbeserious Jun 2014 #128

I wonder if they're going to say that they lost a bunch of emails when some individual user's hard hughee99 Jun 2014 #134

Nope different agencies have different backup methods. Different parts of different agencies have stevenleser Jun 2014 #163

Yes, the IT had this policy hughee99 Jun 2014 #164

The IRS' email is not a particularly critical system. Makes sense its the last one to be upgraded stevenleser Jun 2014 #165

Interesting. Useless, but interesting. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2014 #151

Oh,I believe, I believe,I believe.... bobGandolf Jun 2014 #154

Release all sources, agents, methods, and revenue streams BURN IT. TheKentuckian Jun 2014 #157

The NSA are proven liars. nt woo me with science Jun 2014 #158

Yes, and without a serious good faith effort to go through regular channels, Snowden is a criminal. stevenleser Jun 2014 #159

We searched our secret documents and found nothing that implicates us of wrong doing Taitertots Jun 2014 #160

Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.. And the NSA would NEVER lie to us... 99Forever Jun 2014 #161