General Discussion

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

47. They are taking actions which they know will result in hundreds of civilian deaths.

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 10:13 AM

Jul 2014

You are right, they avoid civilian deaths, not because they don't want to kill civilians, but because they want to give pundits and politicians some kind of plausible moral argument on TV shows and in the UN, etc.

The problem is, the response in this case is so disproportionate that the moral argument fails completely. The only argument that I've heard so far is that "Israel needs to do whatever it must to defend itself from Hamas". The problem with that argument is that there is no sense of proportion. If IDF decided to simply level all of Gaza and kill every citizen there, the same argument could be made. I hope that, in that case, you would agree with me that the response was disproportionate.

So there is a line somewhere. The question is, what argument can possibly made that the current response doesn't cross that line.

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300 to 1 is disproportionate warfare [View all] cali Jul 2014 OP

So Israel needs to let more of their civilians die before they are allowed to defend them? Kurska Jul 2014 #1

that isn't what I said. Iron Dome has a 90%+ effectiveness rate. I'm glad of that. cali Jul 2014 #2

What is an overreaction? Kurska Jul 2014 #4

crock of condensed, high test bullshit. Of course it's sustainable. cali Jul 2014 #10

Are you advocating that US pay the entire bill for Iron dome? Because currently they don't Kurska Jul 2014 #13

And yet you completely ignore how Israel is inflicting collective punishment Maedhros Jul 2014 #145

Gave it back? sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #62

A particularly giant load this A.M. PCIntern Jul 2014 #5

It never ceases to amaze me sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #65

AMEN! LoisB Jul 2014 #83

+1 broiles Jul 2014 #103

Human shield tripe again? 300 dead, terrible shields, do not purchase any, and do not let shields Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #120

2 million in 130 some square miles Hayabusa Jul 2014 #129

The real cowards Yogi362 Jul 2014 #183

Are there places in Gaza that are free of civilians? arcane1 Jul 2014 #186

90%? Terrible exaggeration. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #118

How many Palestinian civilians do you think it is OK for IDF to kill? DanTex Jul 2014 #11

Well first off 300 civilians have not died. That is the total death. Kurska Jul 2014 #15

So your answer is that any number of civilian deaths is justified. DanTex Jul 2014 #20

No, because I do not think any number of civilian deaths is needed. Kurska Jul 2014 #24

sure you would. Peace? Occupations don't come with peace. Stealing land generally upsets cali Jul 2014 #26

Gaza isn't stolen land, it was returned and Israel got nothing but rocket fire and tunnels. Kurska Jul 2014 #28

returned with no real autonomy. no airport. no seaport. no fishing. no exporting products made cali Jul 2014 #37

Israel withdrew in 2005 and the blockade started in 2007 after the takeover by hamas. Kurska Jul 2014 #43

The inconvenient truth sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #79

Than apparently you condemn IDF for unnecessarily killing civilians. Glad we agree on this. DanTex Jul 2014 #30

All of this is why I want there to be a white peace Kurska Jul 2014 #32

Yes, obviously, Hamas is wrong here. No argument from me. DanTex Jul 2014 #35

I disagree. If Israel was setting out to just kill 300 people, maybe. Kurska Jul 2014 #39

They are taking actions which they know will result in hundreds of civilian deaths. DanTex Jul 2014 #47

We're not going to agree on proportionality. Kurska Jul 2014 #52

"White Peace"?! LOL! What a Joke. 2banon Jul 2014 #192

Israel can stop the rocket attacks at any time. MyNameGoesHere Jul 2014 #116

No, it just has to commit suicide. Hamas has vowed Flatulo Jul 2014 #136

I believe the people in Gaza or snakes as they are called MyNameGoesHere Jul 2014 #137

It's a terrible situation all around, no doubt. Flatulo Jul 2014 #141

do you honestly think Hamas can destroy Israel? 0rganism Jul 2014 #176

Actually all they need to do is...... whistler162 Jul 2014 #174

It's not Hamas' fault that they've only killed two Israeli civilians. Flatulo Jul 2014 #131

Still no answer to the question of proportionality. DanTex Jul 2014 #188

I don't know which rule book you're using that prescribes a ratio that is 'proportionate'. Flatulo Jul 2014 #199

Yeah, that's basically the only argument that IDF can make. DanTex Jul 2014 #202

And 'round and 'round it goes until one side Flatulo Jul 2014 #217

you cant compare MFM008 Jul 2014 #180

Peace without any preconditions Yogi362 Jul 2014 #184

When Hamas stops yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #19

So, again, the answer is that no number of Palestinian civilian deaths is too many. DanTex Jul 2014 #22

Those poor Israeli's murdered by Hamas yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #31

Yes, Hamas should stop committing acts of terrorism and killing Israeli civilians. DanTex Jul 2014 #34

If Israel had stopped after Hamas yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #41

Again, both sides are wrong. I agree with you about Hamas. DanTex Jul 2014 #53

Israel should stop using their unbridled power and weapons to close borders and blockade kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #50

"not that this justifies...." Except that is exactly what you are attempting to do, with "context." WinkyDink Jul 2014 #111

I think you are confusing "punishment" with "retaliation." Perhaps the US ought not have gone to war WinkyDink Jul 2014 #110

Yeah really...Pearl Harbor:2,400 US dead, most military... EX500rider Jul 2014 #123

No, I'm clear on the two. They are related, of course. DanTex Jul 2014 #190

"Will they finally stop the murders." hfojvt Jul 2014 #88

I look at it like this: christx30 Jul 2014 #94

Wow. deurbano Jul 2014 #109

Wow what? He's exactly right. Bullies need to be crushed. Flatulo Jul 2014 #133

Well, that's what Hamas is trying to do. It isn't working very well though. DanTex Jul 2014 #182

How would you handle it? christx30 Jul 2014 #148

Hamas proposed a ceasefire Yogi362 Jul 2014 #165

My "wow" was mostly in response to your (seeming) belief that breaking another preteen kid's arm deurbano Jul 2014 #193

The point I was making about christx30 Jul 2014 #204

You missed out the small issue of the brutal Israeli occupation Yogi362 Jul 2014 #162

That, of course, is a preposterous way to look at it. DanTex Jul 2014 #168

In your story, Israel is the 7th grader, and the Palestinians are you n/t arcane1 Jul 2014 #170

Jaysus, it's not a tennis match. Israel should fight until Flatulo Jul 2014 #132

It's in both Hamas's hands and IDF's hands. DanTex Jul 2014 #164

Purposefully putting their childre in harms way? sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #85

It seems that since Israel's defense system works, they should just let them fire away. 7962 Jul 2014 #90

Yet you propose letting the IDF kill as many children as it wants. Maedhros Jul 2014 #147

+1 madaboutharry Jul 2014 #205

Israeli soldiers aren't civilians... Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #207

The rockets being fired into Israel are meant to kill civilians. madaboutharry Jul 2014 #210

Is there really such a thing as an "Israeli civilian"? Yogi362 Jul 2014 #209

How many Israelis need to die to make it "proportionate warfare"? former9thward Jul 2014 #3

U.S Civilian dead 12,000 and Japanese Civilian dead 1,000,000 Kurska Jul 2014 #6

That would be my question to the OP. former9thward Jul 2014 #57

Yes. sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #91

I can see from your "pacifist" like post TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #107

The way I've understood the nukes... kjones Jul 2014 #138

Get your history book out and read some more. TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #156

Got a whole bookcase of them. kjones Jul 2014 #191

The Japanese were beat long before sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #144

Many said that Ali was beaten when he started the "Roper Dope" TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #167

I have up close and personal sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #200

Maybe but no one told them! whistler162 Jul 2014 #177

The goal was to completely crush Japan's and Germany's Flatulo Jul 2014 #134

You're so blasse about killing civilians. nt kjones Jul 2014 #139

I guess you didn't fight in WWII? My father and uncles did. Flatulo Jul 2014 #140

Ok, your father is so blasse about killing civilians? Or... kjones Jul 2014 #150

Seeing as you weren't there either, I guess your opinion fits right in that bucket. nt laundry_queen Jul 2014 #154

We saw the beginning of that mistake with korea. You never "win" unless you crush them 7962 Jul 2014 #159

Quite often the victor sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #196

But the important point is that they completely capitulated. Nt Flatulo Jul 2014 #197

Then the lesson should be clear: sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #206

Thank you for inserting some sanity. 7962 Jul 2014 #153

Japan wasn't innocent in the war. christx30 Jul 2014 #155

how many inane hypotheticals will this thread get? cali Jul 2014 #7

Iron-dome is not a subsitute for stopping the rocket fire as I've already explained Kurska Jul 2014 #8

The Palestinian people Yogi362 Jul 2014 #169

WTF? PCIntern Jul 2014 #9

oooh, who are my "favorite people in the whole wide world"? do tell who these cali Jul 2014 #12

Oooh...professing ignorance now that the whole PCIntern Jul 2014 #16

YOU fucking accused me of supporting Hamas. That was a big fucking mistake. cali Jul 2014 #17

...you mean you aren't? PCIntern Jul 2014 #18

uh, you threatened me FIRST with the "that was a big mistake" line. memory problems? cali Jul 2014 #23

Can't both of you just go to your corner and calm down? Kurska Jul 2014 #27

I'll make them both a cup of camomile tea n/t Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #40

Cali had said many times she doesn't support Hamas... Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #38

thanks, violet. ironic isn't it? anyone who knows my posting history in I/P cali Jul 2014 #42

Yeah, it's pretty ironic... Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #51

Don't let that "Appreciation thread" go to your head, Violet... PCIntern Jul 2014 #45

Violet is a kind soul who deserved that thread. Kurska Jul 2014 #48

I dunno... PCIntern Jul 2014 #55

Everyone has said stupid things in the IP dungeon. I know I have. Kurska Jul 2014 #56

No my friend... PCIntern Jul 2014 #59

If you're referring to me, that's really nuts. cali Jul 2014 #60

No...for a change this had nothing to do with you... PCIntern Jul 2014 #68

gee. I wonder why I thought it could be. Possibly all the false charges you've leveled at me. cali Jul 2014 #73

That was a nasty Caretha Jul 2014 #75

Well now... PCIntern Jul 2014 #143

Fine Caretha Jul 2014 #152

Hateful? PCIntern Jul 2014 #187

I'd describe it as nasty... Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #198

Typical obfuscation. All or none. Nt PCIntern Jul 2014 #203

In part of our discussion Caretha Jul 2014 #212

Hamas could purchase an Iron dome too yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #25

ridiculous. utterly so. cali Jul 2014 #29

Then Cali, why did they start bombing Israel yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #36

Iron Dome? PCIntern Jul 2014 #33

Yes it is collective punishment. TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #114

How many Palestinian civilians does IDF have to kill before it becomes disproportionate. DanTex Jul 2014 #14

thanks, dan. and yes, I think that in part, the violence and support for Hamas cali Jul 2014 #21

You are clearly able H2O Man Jul 2014 #49

Thank you, H2O man. cali Jul 2014 #64

Three million is a little excessive considering there are only 1.8 million living in Gaza. TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #126

Of course the question is whether it's disproportionate. DanTex Jul 2014 #161

There is no collective punishment. former9thward Jul 2014 #151

World leaders can't speak freely about things like this. DanTex Jul 2014 #163

Exactly, as General Sherman said "War is Hell." TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #98

It's not Hamas that suffers the collective punishment doled out by IDF. DanTex Jul 2014 #166

They voted for Hamas and they can live (or die) with Hamas. TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #171

Collective punishment against civilians is a war crime regardless of who they voted for. DanTex Jul 2014 #172

"Accept 1967 borders"?! Let's review some actual history--like, those pesky FACTS: WinkyDink Jul 2014 #44

EXACTLY!!! nt PCIntern Jul 2014 #46

Except that Arafat did recognize Israel. And the right to exist had to do with land, not people. n kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #54

There is no war. There is land theft and the consequential skirmishes. GoneFishin Jul 2014 #58

So one can conclude that Hamas has rockets because Israel wants them to have rockets? notadmblnd Jul 2014 #80

A terrible, lopsided outcome that calls into question HereSince1628 Jul 2014 #61

The far better analogy would be 'What would the US do Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #63

Exactly. Except precision removal of the criminals would not further the ulterior goal GoneFishin Jul 2014 #66

Isn't Zionism heaven05 Jul 2014 #67

My God! You figured it out! PCIntern Jul 2014 #70

No! heaven05 Jul 2014 #86

My answer? PCIntern Jul 2014 #127

And the jury results are in... aikoaiko Jul 2014 #142

I understand heaven05 Jul 2014 #213

No. Zionims is comprised of many differing philosophies. cali Jul 2014 #71

thank you, cali heaven05 Jul 2014 #95

Albert Einstein Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #128

Wow heaven05 Jul 2014 #214

I LOATHE Hamas, but I agree here LeftishBrit Jul 2014 #69

Why should Israel return to 1967 borders? YarnAddict Jul 2014 #72

no. that is not historically accurate. the settlements are illegal and have been deemed cali Jul 2014 #76

Just curious YarnAddict Jul 2014 #96

here: cali Jul 2014 #104

EXACTLY. If I hit you over the head with a bag of marbles, and you scoop them up, I don't get to WinkyDink Jul 2014 #119

So? Like the U.N. always condemns Israel's RESPONSES but never the original atrocity? WinkyDink Jul 2014 #115

The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and seige of Gaza IS the original atrocity. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #149

Everyone has a different definition of "legitimately won" territory when it comes to I/P. DanTex Jul 2014 #82

Understood n/t YarnAddict Jul 2014 #102

Hamas could have prevented the Israeli response by simply NOT lobbing Jenoch Jul 2014 #74

there's something so pitiful about the reductivist lobbing of that mindless line. cali Jul 2014 #77

Israel could stop the 300 to 1 killing by.....stopping the killing in the occupied lands/prison. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #78

And IDF could have prevented the response by, you know, not going on a killing rampage. DanTex Jul 2014 #81

I agree. Jenoch Jul 2014 #89

They could have also prevented the response sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #92

What you're saying Yogi362 Jul 2014 #173

I thoight the Palestinians WANTED Gaza. Jenoch Jul 2014 #201

Well, you missed the point completely Yogi362 Jul 2014 #208

There is no such thing as a "fair" fight in a warzone Baclava Jul 2014 #84

this isn't a warzone. One side has a military. the other does not. cali Jul 2014 #87

too late now - they should have thought of that before they starting raining down missiles Baclava Jul 2014 #93

Self-deleting Politicub Jul 2014 #97

That's an insane title. Igel Jul 2014 #99

Just some history, here. sofa king Jul 2014 #100

well, as you can see, some avoid the real issue stupidicus Jul 2014 #101

This message was self-deleted by its author invrabbit Jul 2014 #105

"...Mind you, I am an advocate of peaceful social action..." aint_no_life_nowhere Jul 2014 #106

I dispute your term "reckless." Israel issues many warnings to Hamas to remove their weaponry from WinkyDink Jul 2014 #108

I don't attempt to justify the attack of the Arab states on a nascent Israel. cali Jul 2014 #117

If someone else declared a state on your land Yogi362 Jul 2014 #175

disproportionate warfare invrabbit Jul 2014 #112

Hamas considers a high body count good press. Turbineguy Jul 2014 #113

I wouldn't disagree with that, but it doesn't absolve the Israeli's "mow the grass" tactic cali Jul 2014 #122

You are right. It doesn't. Turbineguy Jul 2014 #125

If it were truly a mowthe grass tactic... PCIntern Jul 2014 #146

you have no idea what you're talking about here as evidenced by your post cali Jul 2014 #157

You missed the point of course... PCIntern Jul 2014 #189

And, it's ever so nice of the Israelis to commit atrocities to give Hamas good PR. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #124

Israel's first priority is to protect its own people. WatermelonRat Jul 2014 #121

Occupying forces don't have the right to "protect" themselves Yogi362 Jul 2014 #179

There was a gorilla sitting alone at the bar, TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #130

And then some malaise Jul 2014 #135

Does the U.N. hold an emergency meeting when the U.S. commits war crimes, like killing cali Jul 2014 #158

Inconsistent - well the US is consstent in its inconsistency malaise Jul 2014 #160

Demographics and time will sort out the mess...in the future SoCalDem Jul 2014 #178

that's possible but not certain by any means. cali Jul 2014 #181

Haven't we all been looking for that solution for DECADES? SoCalDem Jul 2014 #185

They did, the Arab nations attacked Israel en mass, they got beat back TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #194

"States" exist only so long as they can defend territory or come to accommodation SoCalDem Jul 2014 #195

I'm sorry Yogi362 Jul 2014 #211

Oh another who doesn't believe in the right of Israel to exist. Drive the Jews in to the sea or into TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #216

Please stop with the straw arguments. DanTex Jul 2014 #218

Is killing the path to peace? locks Jul 2014 #215