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In reply to the discussion: 300 to 1 is disproportionate warfare [View all]stupidicus
(2,570 posts)101. well, as you can see, some avoid the real issue
which is whether or not the efforts of Hamas justify those of Israel, or vice versa. As a moral matter, of course they don't. The "well, they're terrorists!" gives Israel's supporters a "moral blanket" to insulate themselves from the ugly truth you raised.
The proportionality thing raises questions of guilt on the part of Israel that Hamas does not share, so of course it must be dismissed or minimized as a concern despite its role in international law/conflicts.
What about the Palestinian firing of rockets at Israel from Gaza?
Thousands of rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel over the years causing both physical and psychological harm to Israelis. AFSC agrees that the firing of all rockets from Gaza into Israel, particularly into civilian areas, must end.
However, we believe that it is important to look at the firing of rockets by Palestinian armed groups in context. For example, of the grad rockets, homemade rockets, and mortars fired by Palestinians between January 1and November 1, 2012, approximately 70% were fired during three distinct periods of escalation in March, June, and late October. Each of these escalations correlates with an assassination/killing, incursion, or other Israeli military action. Only a small percentage of the other rockets and mortars that were fired during 2012 were fired in isolation from Israeli military actions in Gaza.[xiii]
During that same time period Israel carried out military invasions of Gaza several times a week. These invasions involve the entry of Israeli tanks, armored personnel carriers, jeeps, and ground forces into Gaza where they destroy agricultural property, destroy homes, attack armed groups, arrest wanted individuals, and attack civilian targets. In addition to these invasions, Israel airstrikes, naval shelling/fire, and shelling and firing from ground forces targeted locations in Gaza several times a week.
During the period between January 1st and November 6th 2012, 19 Israelis were injured by Palestinian attacks originating from Gaza. During the same period 71 Palestinians were killed and over 300 injured by Israeli attacks on Gaza.
It should be clear that the firing of rockets is intertwined with these ongoing Israeli military actions in Gaza. Rocket fire and violence from Gaza will not be ended through the use of increased military force, rather ending violence by armed Palestinian groups requires engagement with them and ending the blockade and the occupation of the Palestinian territory. http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/besieged-blockaded-fighting.html
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So Israel needs to let more of their civilians die before they are allowed to defend them?
Kurska
Jul 2014
#1
Are you advocating that US pay the entire bill for Iron dome? Because currently they don't
Kurska
Jul 2014
#13
Human shield tripe again? 300 dead, terrible shields, do not purchase any, and do not let shields
Fred Sanders
Jul 2014
#120
sure you would. Peace? Occupations don't come with peace. Stealing land generally upsets
cali
Jul 2014
#26
Gaza isn't stolen land, it was returned and Israel got nothing but rocket fire and tunnels.
Kurska
Jul 2014
#28
returned with no real autonomy. no airport. no seaport. no fishing. no exporting products made
cali
Jul 2014
#37
Israel withdrew in 2005 and the blockade started in 2007 after the takeover by hamas.
Kurska
Jul 2014
#43
Than apparently you condemn IDF for unnecessarily killing civilians. Glad we agree on this.
DanTex
Jul 2014
#30
They are taking actions which they know will result in hundreds of civilian deaths.
DanTex
Jul 2014
#47
I don't know which rule book you're using that prescribes a ratio that is 'proportionate'.
Flatulo
Jul 2014
#199
So, again, the answer is that no number of Palestinian civilian deaths is too many.
DanTex
Jul 2014
#22
Yes, Hamas should stop committing acts of terrorism and killing Israeli civilians.
DanTex
Jul 2014
#34
Israel should stop using their unbridled power and weapons to close borders and blockade
kelliekat44
Jul 2014
#50
"not that this justifies...." Except that is exactly what you are attempting to do, with "context."
WinkyDink
Jul 2014
#111
I think you are confusing "punishment" with "retaliation." Perhaps the US ought not have gone to war
WinkyDink
Jul 2014
#110
My "wow" was mostly in response to your (seeming) belief that breaking another preteen kid's arm
deurbano
Jul 2014
#193
It seems that since Israel's defense system works, they should just let them fire away.
7962
Jul 2014
#90
Seeing as you weren't there either, I guess your opinion fits right in that bucket. nt
laundry_queen
Jul 2014
#154
We saw the beginning of that mistake with korea. You never "win" unless you crush them
7962
Jul 2014
#159
Iron-dome is not a subsitute for stopping the rocket fire as I've already explained
Kurska
Jul 2014
#8
uh, you threatened me FIRST with the "that was a big mistake" line. memory problems?
cali
Jul 2014
#23
gee. I wonder why I thought it could be. Possibly all the false charges you've leveled at me.
cali
Jul 2014
#73
How many Palestinian civilians does IDF have to kill before it becomes disproportionate.
DanTex
Jul 2014
#14
Three million is a little excessive considering there are only 1.8 million living in Gaza.
TiredOfNo
Jul 2014
#126
Collective punishment against civilians is a war crime regardless of who they voted for.
DanTex
Jul 2014
#172
"Accept 1967 borders"?! Let's review some actual history--like, those pesky FACTS:
WinkyDink
Jul 2014
#44
Except that Arafat did recognize Israel. And the right to exist had to do with land, not people. n
kelliekat44
Jul 2014
#54
So one can conclude that Hamas has rockets because Israel wants them to have rockets?
notadmblnd
Jul 2014
#80
Exactly. Except precision removal of the criminals would not further the ulterior goal
GoneFishin
Jul 2014
#66
no. that is not historically accurate. the settlements are illegal and have been deemed
cali
Jul 2014
#76
EXACTLY. If I hit you over the head with a bag of marbles, and you scoop them up, I don't get to
WinkyDink
Jul 2014
#119
So? Like the U.N. always condemns Israel's RESPONSES but never the original atrocity?
WinkyDink
Jul 2014
#115
The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and seige of Gaza IS the original atrocity.
Comrade Grumpy
Jul 2014
#149
Everyone has a different definition of "legitimately won" territory when it comes to I/P.
DanTex
Jul 2014
#82
Israel could stop the 300 to 1 killing by.....stopping the killing in the occupied lands/prison.
Fred Sanders
Jul 2014
#78
And IDF could have prevented the response by, you know, not going on a killing rampage.
DanTex
Jul 2014
#81
too late now - they should have thought of that before they starting raining down missiles
Baclava
Jul 2014
#93
I dispute your term "reckless." Israel issues many warnings to Hamas to remove their weaponry from
WinkyDink
Jul 2014
#108
I wouldn't disagree with that, but it doesn't absolve the Israeli's "mow the grass" tactic
cali
Jul 2014
#122
And, it's ever so nice of the Israelis to commit atrocities to give Hamas good PR.
Tierra_y_Libertad
Jul 2014
#124
Does the U.N. hold an emergency meeting when the U.S. commits war crimes, like killing
cali
Jul 2014
#158
"States" exist only so long as they can defend territory or come to accommodation
SoCalDem
Jul 2014
#195
Oh another who doesn't believe in the right of Israel to exist. Drive the Jews in to the sea or into
TheKentuckian
Jul 2014
#216