General Discussion

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

172. Collective punishment against civilians is a war crime regardless of who they voted for.

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 04:27 PM

Jul 2014

Your logic is the same logic that Hamas uses to justify firing rockets at the innocent Israeli population.

You're looking for a simple way to justify violence against innocent civilians, but that doesn't exist.

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300 to 1 is disproportionate warfare [View all] cali Jul 2014 OP

So Israel needs to let more of their civilians die before they are allowed to defend them? Kurska Jul 2014 #1

that isn't what I said. Iron Dome has a 90%+ effectiveness rate. I'm glad of that. cali Jul 2014 #2

What is an overreaction? Kurska Jul 2014 #4

crock of condensed, high test bullshit. Of course it's sustainable. cali Jul 2014 #10

Are you advocating that US pay the entire bill for Iron dome? Because currently they don't Kurska Jul 2014 #13

And yet you completely ignore how Israel is inflicting collective punishment Maedhros Jul 2014 #145

Gave it back? sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #62

A particularly giant load this A.M. PCIntern Jul 2014 #5

It never ceases to amaze me sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #65

AMEN! LoisB Jul 2014 #83

+1 broiles Jul 2014 #103

Human shield tripe again? 300 dead, terrible shields, do not purchase any, and do not let shields Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #120

2 million in 130 some square miles Hayabusa Jul 2014 #129

The real cowards Yogi362 Jul 2014 #183

Are there places in Gaza that are free of civilians? arcane1 Jul 2014 #186

90%? Terrible exaggeration. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #118

How many Palestinian civilians do you think it is OK for IDF to kill? DanTex Jul 2014 #11

Well first off 300 civilians have not died. That is the total death. Kurska Jul 2014 #15

So your answer is that any number of civilian deaths is justified. DanTex Jul 2014 #20

No, because I do not think any number of civilian deaths is needed. Kurska Jul 2014 #24

sure you would. Peace? Occupations don't come with peace. Stealing land generally upsets cali Jul 2014 #26

Gaza isn't stolen land, it was returned and Israel got nothing but rocket fire and tunnels. Kurska Jul 2014 #28

returned with no real autonomy. no airport. no seaport. no fishing. no exporting products made cali Jul 2014 #37

Israel withdrew in 2005 and the blockade started in 2007 after the takeover by hamas. Kurska Jul 2014 #43

The inconvenient truth sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #79

Than apparently you condemn IDF for unnecessarily killing civilians. Glad we agree on this. DanTex Jul 2014 #30

All of this is why I want there to be a white peace Kurska Jul 2014 #32

Yes, obviously, Hamas is wrong here. No argument from me. DanTex Jul 2014 #35

I disagree. If Israel was setting out to just kill 300 people, maybe. Kurska Jul 2014 #39

They are taking actions which they know will result in hundreds of civilian deaths. DanTex Jul 2014 #47

We're not going to agree on proportionality. Kurska Jul 2014 #52

"White Peace"?! LOL! What a Joke. 2banon Jul 2014 #192

Israel can stop the rocket attacks at any time. MyNameGoesHere Jul 2014 #116

No, it just has to commit suicide. Hamas has vowed Flatulo Jul 2014 #136

I believe the people in Gaza or snakes as they are called MyNameGoesHere Jul 2014 #137

It's a terrible situation all around, no doubt. Flatulo Jul 2014 #141

do you honestly think Hamas can destroy Israel? 0rganism Jul 2014 #176

Actually all they need to do is...... whistler162 Jul 2014 #174

It's not Hamas' fault that they've only killed two Israeli civilians. Flatulo Jul 2014 #131

Still no answer to the question of proportionality. DanTex Jul 2014 #188

I don't know which rule book you're using that prescribes a ratio that is 'proportionate'. Flatulo Jul 2014 #199

Yeah, that's basically the only argument that IDF can make. DanTex Jul 2014 #202

And 'round and 'round it goes until one side Flatulo Jul 2014 #217

you cant compare MFM008 Jul 2014 #180

Peace without any preconditions Yogi362 Jul 2014 #184

When Hamas stops yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #19

So, again, the answer is that no number of Palestinian civilian deaths is too many. DanTex Jul 2014 #22

Those poor Israeli's murdered by Hamas yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #31

Yes, Hamas should stop committing acts of terrorism and killing Israeli civilians. DanTex Jul 2014 #34

If Israel had stopped after Hamas yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #41

Again, both sides are wrong. I agree with you about Hamas. DanTex Jul 2014 #53

Israel should stop using their unbridled power and weapons to close borders and blockade kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #50

"not that this justifies...." Except that is exactly what you are attempting to do, with "context." WinkyDink Jul 2014 #111

I think you are confusing "punishment" with "retaliation." Perhaps the US ought not have gone to war WinkyDink Jul 2014 #110

Yeah really...Pearl Harbor:2,400 US dead, most military... EX500rider Jul 2014 #123

No, I'm clear on the two. They are related, of course. DanTex Jul 2014 #190

"Will they finally stop the murders." hfojvt Jul 2014 #88

I look at it like this: christx30 Jul 2014 #94

Wow. deurbano Jul 2014 #109

Wow what? He's exactly right. Bullies need to be crushed. Flatulo Jul 2014 #133

Well, that's what Hamas is trying to do. It isn't working very well though. DanTex Jul 2014 #182

How would you handle it? christx30 Jul 2014 #148

Hamas proposed a ceasefire Yogi362 Jul 2014 #165

My "wow" was mostly in response to your (seeming) belief that breaking another preteen kid's arm deurbano Jul 2014 #193

The point I was making about christx30 Jul 2014 #204

You missed out the small issue of the brutal Israeli occupation Yogi362 Jul 2014 #162

That, of course, is a preposterous way to look at it. DanTex Jul 2014 #168

In your story, Israel is the 7th grader, and the Palestinians are you n/t arcane1 Jul 2014 #170

Jaysus, it's not a tennis match. Israel should fight until Flatulo Jul 2014 #132

It's in both Hamas's hands and IDF's hands. DanTex Jul 2014 #164

Purposefully putting their childre in harms way? sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #85

It seems that since Israel's defense system works, they should just let them fire away. 7962 Jul 2014 #90

Yet you propose letting the IDF kill as many children as it wants. Maedhros Jul 2014 #147

+1 madaboutharry Jul 2014 #205

Israeli soldiers aren't civilians... Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #207

The rockets being fired into Israel are meant to kill civilians. madaboutharry Jul 2014 #210

Is there really such a thing as an "Israeli civilian"? Yogi362 Jul 2014 #209

How many Israelis need to die to make it "proportionate warfare"? former9thward Jul 2014 #3

U.S Civilian dead 12,000 and Japanese Civilian dead 1,000,000 Kurska Jul 2014 #6

That would be my question to the OP. former9thward Jul 2014 #57

Yes. sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #91

I can see from your "pacifist" like post TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #107

The way I've understood the nukes... kjones Jul 2014 #138

Get your history book out and read some more. TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #156

Got a whole bookcase of them. kjones Jul 2014 #191

The Japanese were beat long before sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #144

Many said that Ali was beaten when he started the "Roper Dope" TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #167

I have up close and personal sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #200

Maybe but no one told them! whistler162 Jul 2014 #177

The goal was to completely crush Japan's and Germany's Flatulo Jul 2014 #134

You're so blasse about killing civilians. nt kjones Jul 2014 #139

I guess you didn't fight in WWII? My father and uncles did. Flatulo Jul 2014 #140

Ok, your father is so blasse about killing civilians? Or... kjones Jul 2014 #150

Seeing as you weren't there either, I guess your opinion fits right in that bucket. nt laundry_queen Jul 2014 #154

We saw the beginning of that mistake with korea. You never "win" unless you crush them 7962 Jul 2014 #159

Quite often the victor sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #196

But the important point is that they completely capitulated. Nt Flatulo Jul 2014 #197

Then the lesson should be clear: sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #206

Thank you for inserting some sanity. 7962 Jul 2014 #153

Japan wasn't innocent in the war. christx30 Jul 2014 #155

how many inane hypotheticals will this thread get? cali Jul 2014 #7

Iron-dome is not a subsitute for stopping the rocket fire as I've already explained Kurska Jul 2014 #8

The Palestinian people Yogi362 Jul 2014 #169

WTF? PCIntern Jul 2014 #9

oooh, who are my "favorite people in the whole wide world"? do tell who these cali Jul 2014 #12

Oooh...professing ignorance now that the whole PCIntern Jul 2014 #16

YOU fucking accused me of supporting Hamas. That was a big fucking mistake. cali Jul 2014 #17

...you mean you aren't? PCIntern Jul 2014 #18

uh, you threatened me FIRST with the "that was a big mistake" line. memory problems? cali Jul 2014 #23

Can't both of you just go to your corner and calm down? Kurska Jul 2014 #27

I'll make them both a cup of camomile tea n/t Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #40

Cali had said many times she doesn't support Hamas... Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #38

thanks, violet. ironic isn't it? anyone who knows my posting history in I/P cali Jul 2014 #42

Yeah, it's pretty ironic... Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #51

Don't let that "Appreciation thread" go to your head, Violet... PCIntern Jul 2014 #45

Violet is a kind soul who deserved that thread. Kurska Jul 2014 #48

I dunno... PCIntern Jul 2014 #55

Everyone has said stupid things in the IP dungeon. I know I have. Kurska Jul 2014 #56

No my friend... PCIntern Jul 2014 #59

If you're referring to me, that's really nuts. cali Jul 2014 #60

No...for a change this had nothing to do with you... PCIntern Jul 2014 #68

gee. I wonder why I thought it could be. Possibly all the false charges you've leveled at me. cali Jul 2014 #73

That was a nasty Caretha Jul 2014 #75

Well now... PCIntern Jul 2014 #143

Fine Caretha Jul 2014 #152

Hateful? PCIntern Jul 2014 #187

I'd describe it as nasty... Violet_Crumble Jul 2014 #198

Typical obfuscation. All or none. Nt PCIntern Jul 2014 #203

In part of our discussion Caretha Jul 2014 #212

Hamas could purchase an Iron dome too yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #25

ridiculous. utterly so. cali Jul 2014 #29

Then Cali, why did they start bombing Israel yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #36

Iron Dome? PCIntern Jul 2014 #33

Yes it is collective punishment. TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #114

How many Palestinian civilians does IDF have to kill before it becomes disproportionate. DanTex Jul 2014 #14

thanks, dan. and yes, I think that in part, the violence and support for Hamas cali Jul 2014 #21

You are clearly able H2O Man Jul 2014 #49

Thank you, H2O man. cali Jul 2014 #64

Three million is a little excessive considering there are only 1.8 million living in Gaza. TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #126

Of course the question is whether it's disproportionate. DanTex Jul 2014 #161

There is no collective punishment. former9thward Jul 2014 #151

World leaders can't speak freely about things like this. DanTex Jul 2014 #163

Exactly, as General Sherman said "War is Hell." TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #98

It's not Hamas that suffers the collective punishment doled out by IDF. DanTex Jul 2014 #166

They voted for Hamas and they can live (or die) with Hamas. TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #171

Collective punishment against civilians is a war crime regardless of who they voted for. DanTex Jul 2014 #172

"Accept 1967 borders"?! Let's review some actual history--like, those pesky FACTS: WinkyDink Jul 2014 #44

EXACTLY!!! nt PCIntern Jul 2014 #46

Except that Arafat did recognize Israel. And the right to exist had to do with land, not people. n kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #54

There is no war. There is land theft and the consequential skirmishes. GoneFishin Jul 2014 #58

So one can conclude that Hamas has rockets because Israel wants them to have rockets? notadmblnd Jul 2014 #80

A terrible, lopsided outcome that calls into question HereSince1628 Jul 2014 #61

The far better analogy would be 'What would the US do Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #63

Exactly. Except precision removal of the criminals would not further the ulterior goal GoneFishin Jul 2014 #66

Isn't Zionism heaven05 Jul 2014 #67

My God! You figured it out! PCIntern Jul 2014 #70

No! heaven05 Jul 2014 #86

My answer? PCIntern Jul 2014 #127

And the jury results are in... aikoaiko Jul 2014 #142

I understand heaven05 Jul 2014 #213

No. Zionims is comprised of many differing philosophies. cali Jul 2014 #71

thank you, cali heaven05 Jul 2014 #95

Albert Einstein Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #128

Wow heaven05 Jul 2014 #214

I LOATHE Hamas, but I agree here LeftishBrit Jul 2014 #69

Why should Israel return to 1967 borders? YarnAddict Jul 2014 #72

no. that is not historically accurate. the settlements are illegal and have been deemed cali Jul 2014 #76

Just curious YarnAddict Jul 2014 #96

here: cali Jul 2014 #104

EXACTLY. If I hit you over the head with a bag of marbles, and you scoop them up, I don't get to WinkyDink Jul 2014 #119

So? Like the U.N. always condemns Israel's RESPONSES but never the original atrocity? WinkyDink Jul 2014 #115

The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and seige of Gaza IS the original atrocity. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #149

Everyone has a different definition of "legitimately won" territory when it comes to I/P. DanTex Jul 2014 #82

Understood n/t YarnAddict Jul 2014 #102

Hamas could have prevented the Israeli response by simply NOT lobbing Jenoch Jul 2014 #74

there's something so pitiful about the reductivist lobbing of that mindless line. cali Jul 2014 #77

Israel could stop the 300 to 1 killing by.....stopping the killing in the occupied lands/prison. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #78

And IDF could have prevented the response by, you know, not going on a killing rampage. DanTex Jul 2014 #81

I agree. Jenoch Jul 2014 #89

They could have also prevented the response sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #92

What you're saying Yogi362 Jul 2014 #173

I thoight the Palestinians WANTED Gaza. Jenoch Jul 2014 #201

Well, you missed the point completely Yogi362 Jul 2014 #208

There is no such thing as a "fair" fight in a warzone Baclava Jul 2014 #84

this isn't a warzone. One side has a military. the other does not. cali Jul 2014 #87

too late now - they should have thought of that before they starting raining down missiles Baclava Jul 2014 #93

Self-deleting Politicub Jul 2014 #97

That's an insane title. Igel Jul 2014 #99

Just some history, here. sofa king Jul 2014 #100

well, as you can see, some avoid the real issue stupidicus Jul 2014 #101

This message was self-deleted by its author invrabbit Jul 2014 #105

"...Mind you, I am an advocate of peaceful social action..." aint_no_life_nowhere Jul 2014 #106

I dispute your term "reckless." Israel issues many warnings to Hamas to remove their weaponry from WinkyDink Jul 2014 #108

I don't attempt to justify the attack of the Arab states on a nascent Israel. cali Jul 2014 #117

If someone else declared a state on your land Yogi362 Jul 2014 #175

disproportionate warfare invrabbit Jul 2014 #112

Hamas considers a high body count good press. Turbineguy Jul 2014 #113

I wouldn't disagree with that, but it doesn't absolve the Israeli's "mow the grass" tactic cali Jul 2014 #122

You are right. It doesn't. Turbineguy Jul 2014 #125

If it were truly a mowthe grass tactic... PCIntern Jul 2014 #146

you have no idea what you're talking about here as evidenced by your post cali Jul 2014 #157

You missed the point of course... PCIntern Jul 2014 #189

And, it's ever so nice of the Israelis to commit atrocities to give Hamas good PR. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #124

Israel's first priority is to protect its own people. WatermelonRat Jul 2014 #121

Occupying forces don't have the right to "protect" themselves Yogi362 Jul 2014 #179

There was a gorilla sitting alone at the bar, TiredOfNo Jul 2014 #130

And then some malaise Jul 2014 #135

Does the U.N. hold an emergency meeting when the U.S. commits war crimes, like killing cali Jul 2014 #158

Inconsistent - well the US is consstent in its inconsistency malaise Jul 2014 #160

Demographics and time will sort out the mess...in the future SoCalDem Jul 2014 #178

that's possible but not certain by any means. cali Jul 2014 #181

Haven't we all been looking for that solution for DECADES? SoCalDem Jul 2014 #185

They did, the Arab nations attacked Israel en mass, they got beat back TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #194

"States" exist only so long as they can defend territory or come to accommodation SoCalDem Jul 2014 #195

I'm sorry Yogi362 Jul 2014 #211

Oh another who doesn't believe in the right of Israel to exist. Drive the Jews in to the sea or into TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #216

Please stop with the straw arguments. DanTex Jul 2014 #218

Is killing the path to peace? locks Jul 2014 #215