General Discussion

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)

63. i think you miss the point

Sat Jul 26, 2014, 02:22 AM

Jul 2014

Yes, Israel does constantly try to conflate the terms "Jew," "Israel," and "Zionist." - so do numerous pro-Israel organizations (interestingly, AIPAC is one of the very few that is honest bout its interests in this regard.)

However, this doesn't actually make the three terms synonyms. One is a nation-state. The other is a category of people, and the third is a political philosophy.

This conflation is an effort by Israel and many of its supporters to exploit Jews as a form of cover - that if you oppose Israel then you oppose "Jews" and are therefore a nasty Nazi or whatever. Meanwhile Jews who disagree with this paradigm are excommunicated, lbeled "self-hating" and all sorts of other nasty shit.

Jews are not israel, and Israel is not Jews. Anyone telling you otherwise is up to some shit.

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Israel is not "the Jews". [View all] Ken Burch Jul 2014 OP

It is "the Zionists." El Supremo Jul 2014 #1

I've been told that it's antisemitic to oppose Zionism. delrem Jul 2014 #9

There's at least one ultra-orthodox Jewish sect LiberalElite Jul 2014 #52

Oh yes. delrem Jul 2014 #53

Neturei Karta, and they're no friends of Palestinians Scootaloo Jul 2014 #61

No, Neturei Karta are a joke. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2014 #132

At its most basic, Zionism refers to Jewish self-determination. WatermelonRat Jul 2014 #88

I recently stumbled across an interesting newspaper image from 1952 starroute Jul 2014 #19

The American Council for Judaism still exists -- though barely starroute Jul 2014 #22

Many Jews have opposed to Zionism; historically, reform Judaism was largely opposed to it Chathamization Jul 2014 #29

The problem is that "Zionist" is also a catch-all for "Jewish conspiracies" villager Jul 2014 #26

Agreed malaise Jul 2014 #2

100% true phantom power Jul 2014 #3

I was accused of hating Jews yesterday because I said I don't approve what BB's gov't is doing obama2terms Jul 2014 #102

Israel doesn't just "claim" to be Jewish. It is written into Israel's basic laws. delrem Jul 2014 #4

I don't think the poster is. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #5

The US isn't a "white state", according as US laws. delrem Jul 2014 #7

It is a big difference, but it's not what the original poster was saying. Gore1FL Jul 2014 #15

You're making a distinction that doesn't exist. delrem Jul 2014 #16

Likewise, there are many H2O Man Jul 2014 #20

Yes. This has nothing to do with the point: Israel is, by law, a Jewish state. delrem Jul 2014 #21

Respectfully disagree. H2O Man Jul 2014 #99

My point is 100% correct. nt delrem Jul 2014 #134

No, it's not. H2O Man Jul 2014 #139

I see, you're "more than 100% correct". Nice to know that. nt delrem Jul 2014 #140

Correct. H2O Man Jul 2014 #143

I don't understand your point. Why you think Ken Burch's obvious point delrem Jul 2014 #144

Regardless. Gore1FL Jul 2014 #24

I didn't deny that. delrem Jul 2014 #31

Who said your post was antisemetic? Gore1FL Jul 2014 #58

I'm happy that you can agree with me on the cause of the problem. n/t delrem Jul 2014 #59

Equating the State of Israel as a synonym for Jews is the problem addressed by the OP. Gore1FL Jul 2014 #80

Yes, that's true. delrem Jul 2014 #136

yeah - if one of those errant rockets would "accidently" destroy The Dome of the Rock Baclava Jul 2014 #6

No, it isn't Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #8

arab/muslim antisemitism existed long before israel Mosby Jul 2014 #130

No, I'm blaming Israeli colonialism. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #131

no, absolutely not reorg Jul 2014 #10

"all those aggressive Arab youths" nt delrem Jul 2014 #23

those who shouted certain chants at recent demonstrations reorg Jul 2014 #25

Agreed! etherealtruth Jul 2014 #11

The distinction is important. H2O Man Jul 2014 #12

That was bullshit this morning and it's bullshit now. randome Jul 2014 #13

Did you blame Muslims in America or France for 9/11? BainsBane Jul 2014 #49

Until someone of the likes of Ghandi stands up and leads these people out of the wilderness... randome Jul 2014 #75

How are dismissing "these people" BainsBane Jul 2014 #76

Sure, religion has nothing to do with killing and neither do guns. randome Jul 2014 #79

i think you miss the point Scootaloo Jul 2014 #63

But it's Israel that is telling us that. randome Jul 2014 #74

I am Jewish and I have lived in America my whole life obama2terms Jul 2014 #107

So you're the exception. randome Jul 2014 #135

I'm no exception obama2terms Jul 2014 #148

Interesting read here malaise Jul 2014 #14

No distinction, we're all human. nt tridim Jul 2014 #17

"Israeli security policy" A-Schwarzenegger Jul 2014 #18

I didn't use that term to soft-pedal anything. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #28

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #91

Use as much snark as you wish, pikkel. Maedhros Jul 2014 #101

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #108

You continue to attach to all Jews the responsiblity for what the Israeli Government is doing. Maedhros Jul 2014 #115

You obviously don't like Jews obama2terms Jul 2014 #118

'Dispensationalist Christianity'? WTF? randome Jul 2014 #145

I obviously wasn't the only one that had a problem with what this person was saying obama2terms Jul 2014 #147

Okay. If I misinterpreted what you said, my bad. randome Jul 2014 #149

Israel's a state right up until I have a probem with their foreign policy. Iggo Jul 2014 #27

No, it's still a state even then, and you have every right to call that state out. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #33

Of course it's still a state. Iggo Jul 2014 #36

Not sure what your point is here. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #38

I can see that. (n/t) Iggo Jul 2014 #39

Are you going to clarify what you mean, then? Ken Burch Jul 2014 #40

But the state represents a single "people" or "nation", out of all the many. delrem Jul 2014 #41

The issue is extreme nationalism, not the religion or ethnicity of the nationalists. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #42

Yes, it would be the same if it were another race/ethnicity. delrem Jul 2014 #48

I'm not trying to paint you as antisemitic. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #50

Of course the fact that Israel is a Jewish state is relevant. delrem Jul 2014 #51

You're deliberately missing Ken's point. [n/t] Maedhros Jul 2014 #103

No I'm not. nt delrem Jul 2014 #133

/ignore list. [n/t] Maedhros Jul 2014 #138

Byeeee! jeez. nt delrem Jul 2014 #141

Totally agree.. Israel is a goverment entity .. Judaism is a religion Peacetrain Jul 2014 #30

To update August Bebel, we could call it "the anti-imperialism of fools". n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #43

The fact! K & R defacto7 Jul 2014 #32

I've long likened the Zionists to our American Taliban/republicans that are almost all Xtians stupidicus Jul 2014 #34

Your top line ReRe Jul 2014 #35

It needs to be said more, and in more places .. .. fadedrose Jul 2014 #37

Thank you. This nebulous blaming of "the Jews" for Israeli government policy has to stop. nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #44

Thank You GitRDun Jul 2014 #45

Israel might disagree. WinkyDink Jul 2014 #46

There is a logical fallacy at play here. Maedhros Jul 2014 #106

Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #111

The people responsible for the atrocities in Gaza Maedhros Jul 2014 #116

And stop comparing this war to the Holocaust BainsBane Jul 2014 #47

Most people aren't comparing this instance or that with "the Holocaust" delrem Jul 2014 #54

There is an OP on Schindler's List BainsBane Jul 2014 #55

I said what I said. delrem Jul 2014 #56

Actually I would say the Nakba is more similar to the Treaty of Velasco BainsBane Jul 2014 #68

This is something I explained to another poster, BainsBane Scootaloo Jul 2014 #73

thank you for saying it-- and criticism of Israel the state is NOT automatically anti-Semitism mike_c Jul 2014 #57

Agreed. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #93

DUly RECommended Roy Serohz Jul 2014 #60

When Israel is held to a higher standard former9thward Jul 2014 #62

This message was self-deleted by its author Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #65

What higher standard is that? Scootaloo Jul 2014 #66

Scootaloo.... Cali_Democrat Jul 2014 #69

And you've gotta admit, no one demands that you support Sudan or Syria. Scootaloo Jul 2014 #72

thank you for that brief moment of reality therapy Douglas Carpenter Jul 2014 #77

Exactly FarrenH Jul 2014 #84

excellent post. nt m-lekktor Jul 2014 #86

I agree. Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #67

K&R Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #64

Agree Cali_Democrat Jul 2014 #70

Thank you. roody Jul 2014 #71

K&R intaglio Jul 2014 #78

Point well made, and all Catholics are not the Catholic Church. nt Fla Dem Jul 2014 #81

I wonder Cartoonist Jul 2014 #85

You give what you can, no forced donations. Never heard of tithing in the CC. nt Fla Dem Jul 2014 #89

I think you're referring to Baptists but it's understandable to be confused. randome Jul 2014 #90

Definitely RC Cartoonist Jul 2014 #105

Collective guilt is always a bad thing cpwm17 Jul 2014 #82

So if one says 'Fuck Israel', it's not anti-Semitic, right? randome Jul 2014 #83

Yet critics of Israel are smeared as anti-semites. You can't have it both ways. snagglepuss Jul 2014 #87

And they shouldn't be smeared with that label. Agreed. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #92

Nor is Rick Perry "Texas" DFW Jul 2014 #94

As to "doncha know"...Alaska ain't Sarah Palin, either, buddy. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #95

I never heard of any anti-Palin or anti-Perry resolutions at the UN DFW Jul 2014 #96

Knocking down a straw man . . . Rapillion Jul 2014 #97

No straw man at all. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #98

Sure, whatever you say Rapillion Jul 2014 #100

I'm just as outraged by the pogrom as you are. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #109

Rabbi Lerner Rapillion Jul 2014 #127

It's about keeping our eye on the ball. Maedhros Jul 2014 #113

Really? Rapillion Jul 2014 #126

Make no bones about it - the United States Government bears a significant share of responsibilty Maedhros Jul 2014 #142

And why does our government give so much support? Rapillion Jul 2014 #146

Zionist Christians in America push hard for pro-Israeli policy. [n/t] Maedhros Jul 2014 #150

True but . . . Rapillion Jul 2014 #151

Well said, thanks! Rhiannon12866 Jul 2014 #152

If American Muslims were as vocal in their support for Islamic terrorism tularetom Jul 2014 #104

I suppose it depends on who you know and where you may be, but my experience differs Dragonfli Jul 2014 #121

"If you oppose what the Israeli government is doing, it's bullshit to blame Jews as a group" Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #110

Which I wasn't doing. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #112

And what's funny is you felt you had to clarify that. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #123

I felt I had to clarify because there had been a misunderstanding, that's all. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #124

I know. And again, what's funny is you felt you had to clarify that.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #128

Just curious timdog44 Jul 2014 #114

That, and different standards for different parts of DU. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #117

Thanks. timdog44 Jul 2014 #120

More timdog44 Jul 2014 #119

All of that is true...and, in some ways, there's a weirdly symbiotic relationship. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #125

Everybody gets lumped in. Either by nationality or religion or class. bunnies Jul 2014 #122

I agree ann--- Jul 2014 #129

All extremely valid points. Great post. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #137