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Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
48. I don't share your paternalistic view of politicians when it conflicts with the historic record -
Sat Jul 26, 2014, 04:06 PM
Jul 2014

Even the former Israeli Foreign Minister Israeli Foreign Minister Schlomo Ben-Ami has said very clearly that he would have rejected the Camp David offer if he had been Palestinian -

It was not until the very final days of the Barak Labor government and under tremendous pressure from President Clinton did the Israeli government get serious about a credible offer.

Unfortunately with Mr. Sharon who was widely expected to win the election pledging that he would not honor the agreement and then Mr. Barak deciding to distance himself from the Taba negotiations, Israel--not the Palestinians unilaterally withdrew from the Taba talks on January 28, 2001. It must be said in fairness that Israel was just a couple weeks away from the election at that point:

Here is a link to the European Union summary document regarding the Taba talks first published in Haaretz on February 14, 2001:

"Moratinos Document" - The peace that nearly was at Taba

"In the current reality of terror attacks and bombing raids, it is hard to remember that Israel and the Palestinians were close to a final-status agreement at Taba only 13 months ago."

By Akiva Eldar

Ha'aretz
14 February 2002

snip" This document, whose main points have been approved by the Taba negotiators as an accurate description of the discussions, casts additional doubts on the prevailing assumption that Ehud Barak "exposed Yasser Arafat's true face." It is true that on most of the issues discussed during that wintry week of negotiations, sizable gaps remain. Yet almost every line is redolent of the effort to find a compromise that would be acceptable to both sides. It is hard to escape the thought that if the negotiations at Camp David six months earlier had been conducted with equal seriousness, the intifada might never have erupted. And perhaps, if Barak had not waited until the final weeks before the election, and had instead sent his senior representatives to that southern hotel earlier, the violence might never have broken out."

link to the rest of Mr. Eldar's analysis as well as complete summary documents known as the "Moratinos Document:

&quot Israeli negotiator Yossi)Beilin stressed that the Taba talks were not halted because they hit a crisis, but rather because of the Israeli election. At the time, the two sides were discussing arranging a Barak-Arafat meeting in an effort to close the gaps; they had also discussed continuing the talks the day after the election, independent of the outcome."

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/prrn/papers/moratinos.html

Here is a neutral and dispassionate examination of what led to the break down at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in January 2001:

Vision of Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba"
by Professor Jeremy Pressman:

http://www.samed-syr.org/CampDavidAndTaba.pdf

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

This is impressive. elleng Jul 2014 #1
For now I think I'll trust Juan Cole. Little Star Jul 2014 #2
Yes. elleng Jul 2014 #3
Who wouldn't fight back 4now Jul 2014 #4
Seems to me like they are given no other choice. Little Star Jul 2014 #5
Palestine shrunk because of the fighting. JDPriestly Jul 2014 #54
They are one in a very long line of claimants it seems... Ultra_Blue Jul 2014 #56
Eh, there has never been a time when Palestine has been state. malthaussen Jul 2014 #6
who started it? questionseverything Jul 2014 #11
My question refers to the war against Israel, not criminal acts. malthaussen Jul 2014 #17
Requires a backstory econoclast Jul 2014 #7
Or maybe the far more accurate backstory provided by Cole. Karmadillo Jul 2014 #14
"Their country"? Indydem Jul 2014 #24
Doesn't "their country" refer to the proposed Arab nation in the UN partition? The Karmadillo Jul 2014 #35
Then why des he keep acting as if they are a real country? Indydem Jul 2014 #38
What makes Israel a "real" country and Palestine Blue Meany Jul 2014 #53
That is a ridiculous right wing argument. No one, by that standard ever had a country. Land was sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #58
You're shifting definitions and don't know it. Igel Jul 2014 #45
Cole's text is incoherent, but yours is a model of clear thinking. If you say so. Karmadillo Jul 2014 #51
It was "their own fault" is always the justification of bullies. nm rhett o rick Jul 2014 #19
Choosing war in 48 obviously was not the wise choice. nt hack89 Jul 2014 #8
+1 Adsos Letter Jul 2014 #12
For either side. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #16
Sigh. Scootaloo Jul 2014 #25
I know you just want to wish it away hack89 Jul 2014 #26
History is indeed history. Scootaloo Jul 2014 #30
So let me guess. The Jews were the aggressors attacking the peaceful Arabs hack89 Jul 2014 #46
The map is highly misleading. WatermelonRat Jul 2014 #9
The West Bank was not Palestinian before 67 hack89 Jul 2014 #10
the map that lies Mosby Jul 2014 #13
This infographic seems a bit better Chathamization Jul 2014 #15
What did these Palestinians do with the land, before 1946? Archae Jul 2014 #18
Well that's certainly a familiar argument. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #20
Nothing? Karmadillo Jul 2014 #21
Here's Israels loss of land from the thousand years or so prior to '46 7962 Jul 2014 #22
Or 3000. Indydem Jul 2014 #28
Yes. 7962 Jul 2014 #52
the map clearly shows they're fighting over theological differences! MisterP Jul 2014 #23
Quibble about the precise details of the map all you want killbotfactory Jul 2014 #27
Why don't the "Palestinians" have a state? Indydem Jul 2014 #29
Israel provokes them constantly killbotfactory Jul 2014 #33
HA HA HA HA Indydem Jul 2014 #36
Sorry got confused with last nights death count killbotfactory Jul 2014 #37
The Myth of the Generous Offer: Distorting the Camp David negotiations Douglas Carpenter Jul 2014 #43
Bill Clinton puts the blame on Arafat. Indydem Jul 2014 #44
I don't share your paternalistic view of politicians when it conflicts with the historic record - Douglas Carpenter Jul 2014 #48
That's the penalty of starting and losing wars. NutmegYankee Jul 2014 #31
Spot on. Indydem Jul 2014 #40
Exactly seveneyes Jul 2014 #42
Now justify the expansion of settlements. nt killbotfactory Jul 2014 #49
None would exist if statehood had been accepted decades ago. NutmegYankee Jul 2014 #50
Right -- if they had just surrendered all their homes and land immediately, stranger81 Jul 2014 #55
"History supplies little more than a list of people who have helped themselves to the property of Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #32
This is the map that blows my mind ErikJ Jul 2014 #34
, blkmusclmachine Jul 2014 #39
That map and the pictures of Israelis cutting down olive groves that had been there for ..... Botany Jul 2014 #41
Good thread. Rec'ing more for the discussion here than the OP. (n/t) thesquanderer Jul 2014 #47
As others already pointed out, this 'map' is not useful and not accurate. maced666 Jul 2014 #57
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Palestinian loss of land ...»Reply #48