General Discussion

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)

83. I think we've become more nuanced and thoughtful.

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 08:24 AM

Jul 2014

The recent objections have not been against 'sexually explicit books'. They've been against the portrayal of rapist wank material. They're the same objections that you hear against creepy rapist/stalker songs like 'Blurred Lines'.

Media the pushes the notion into the public psyche that intimidation and sexual aggression are acceptable means of coercing physically weaker individual into sexual acts, and at the same time proclaiming that they 'secretly want it'.

There are any number of sexually explicit songs, books, and movies that do not try to convince men that women will 'like it if you just push them into it'. And people on the left aren't objecting to them.

So no, it's not 'pathetically afraid and weak' to object to certain books when you discuss them. It's a principled recognition that certain memes actually work to make society more dysfunctional when they are simply accepted into pop culture. It's a stripping away of the 'male privilege' of pretending that the right to coerce or outright force women into sexual acts is acceptable and even to be emulated.

It's understandable that so many posters are trying to trivialize and deny that there's anything to object to. It's uncomfortable when we're forced to face up to the fact that we've internalized behaviours and thoughts that center on turning other people into something less than human, objects to be controlled and used simply for our own comfort or enjoyment.

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Does Anybody Else Have A Bad Taste In Their Mouths, Over Objections To Sexually Explicit Books ??? [View all] WillyT Jul 2014 OP

I think people discussing books is a good thing fishwax Jul 2014 #1

Well put. Totally agree. n/t TDale313 Jul 2014 #5

+++ uppityperson Jul 2014 #12

Right. What's wrong with people saying this book has bad writing and a lousy message? pnwmom Jul 2014 #19

I prefer Fanny Hill. A veritable fountain of info. Eleanors38 Jul 2014 #28

my mom was a public librarian. She fought censorship. Given that, if you dont like a book roguevalley Jul 2014 #59

I agree 100%--if you don't like a book don't read it or see the movie. Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #180

Agreed! The abuse and misogyny in 50 shades stems from this blatantly misogynistic book... Zorra Jul 2014 #159

The World According to Garp was erotica? bravenak Jul 2014 #2

Well Yeah... I Guess The First Chapter Or Two... But It Was More About A Male Author, Trying... WillyT Jul 2014 #3

Thank you. bravenak Jul 2014 #4

Thing Is... WillyT Jul 2014 #7

Oh, that's great!! bravenak Jul 2014 #8

They Made A Movie Out Of It... It Basically Failed... Even Though It Had Robin Williams In It... WillyT Jul 2014 #15

I loved that one! bravenak Jul 2014 #17

Read the book, it's a helluva lot better than the movie..... (nt) Paladin Jul 2014 #168

Thank you, I think I will. I love a well written tale.nt bravenak Jul 2014 #169

I read The World According to Garp when I was in college. Loved it--it had a lot of weird stuff Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #182

I was too young when i read it. bravenak Jul 2014 #188

That's the first book I read where I found myself mourning for the characters. Paladin Jul 2014 #193

The movie sucked. Gormy Cuss Jul 2014 #21

I loved Garp Atman Jul 2014 #73

World According to Garp had a break-out role for John Lithgow in it. It certainly did not fail in MADem Jul 2014 #29

Glen Close broke out as well Yavin4 Jul 2014 #161

HUme Cronyn and Jessica Tandy were great as usual, and I think that was Robin Williams' MADem Jul 2014 #194

Closed Minded uninformed FreakinDJ Jul 2014 #6

What's even more chilling... 99Forever Jul 2014 #9

Clearly you have no concept what censorship is BainsBane Jul 2014 #14

If you haven't read it, how can you form any good arguments? Quantess Jul 2014 #26

I have read the First Amendment BainsBane Jul 2014 #32

I have not read this novel, no. I don't go around praising it, nor trashing it. Quantess Jul 2014 #37

It's what people that think they are "morally superior" do. n/t 99Forever Jul 2014 #74

Comments like yours BainsBane Jul 2014 #119

You might think you can goad me into a back and forth with you. 99Forever Jul 2014 #192

How do you find confidence to endorse a condemnation of DUers BainsBane Jul 2014 #116

Yes, I admit that I am a bit judgmental about people who voice strong opinions over fictional books Quantess Jul 2014 #121

And I admit to being judgmental BainsBane Jul 2014 #127

"critique"...interesting word... pipoman Jul 2014 #96

They have BainsBane Jul 2014 #106

I have found i often disagree with movie critic's opinions pipoman Jul 2014 #113

Well, by all means. Go to the movie BainsBane Jul 2014 #118

I expect anyone claiming to offer a critique would know 1st hand pipoman Jul 2014 #128

They have BainsBane Jul 2014 #131

Probably, when it comes down to it... pipoman Jul 2014 #135

Well, then perhaps you shouldn't echo their talking points BainsBane Jul 2014 #157

Or perhaps those people should actually act like open minded liberals. .. pipoman Jul 2014 #160

Which is precisely why no one on DU giggled about the 2011 production of Atlas Shrugged... LanternWaste Jul 2014 #137

The same way we do with lots of other things? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #86

Anybody who wishes their opinion on the book to be taken seriously Quantess Jul 2014 #90

So you never discuss anything anyone else ever writes about Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #94

That's not exactly what I meant, and that is not the same thing as Quantess Jul 2014 #97

Censorship does suck, as does guessing about content. nt edgineered Jul 2014 #72

Yes if anybody were talking about censorship I'd be 100% against it el_bryanto Jul 2014 #115

Gamblers and talkers. edgineered Jul 2014 #146

Rick Santorum can go FUCK OFF! I would spray RAID bug spray on that P.O.S. Quantess Jul 2014 #10

I never got that taste in my mouth from a book, no jberryhill Jul 2014 #11

Look, nine times out of ten I'm not going to pick up a romance unless historylovr Jul 2014 #13

Really? 9 out of 10 you won't touch without explicit sex? tkmorris Jul 2014 #34

Well obviously I meant romances, historylovr Jul 2014 #41

The dispute is about whether the book depicts consensual sex or also invovles rape and assault. BainsBane Jul 2014 #16

I Here Ya... Yet... How Do We Know, Judge, And Discuss... UNTIL We've Read It ??? WillyT Jul 2014 #20

Yeah, but I ain't gonna read it BainsBane Jul 2014 #22

Then stop reviewing it/moralizing about it. Marr Jul 2014 #67

You expect evangelicals to stand up in opposition to rape? BainsBane Jul 2014 #71

You are talking about a book of fiction, for crying out loud. Marr Jul 2014 #138

Are you thinking of evangelical busy bodies screaming about Harry Potter books, perhaps? Quantess Jul 2014 #104

Not specifically, but sure-- the Harry Potter complaints would fit perfectly as well. Marr Jul 2014 #139

I've stayed out because I didn't read it as should EVERYONE that hasn't actually read it. Bonobo Jul 2014 #23

It's not the explicit part that's a problem. It's the glamorized rape, kidnapping, and violence pnwmom Jul 2014 #18

But That's My Point... We Were Told Not To Read Many Books ...Over The Last 50 To 60 Years... WillyT Jul 2014 #25

"Do the reading... THEN the criticizing." Beartracks Jul 2014 #43

You can get a general sense of whether a book might be worth reading, Quantess Jul 2014 #143

This message was self-deleted by its author thucythucy Jul 2014 #203

Nobody here is saying don't read the book. Nobody. I really don't understand why you are saying this Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #46

No one has told you not to read the book. Many have expressed negative opinions about the Squinch Jul 2014 #79

This brave blogger read the book and does a chapter by chapter breakdown A Little Weird Jul 2014 #24

semi-pro sporking here MisterP Jul 2014 #44

That's a good one, as also is the other psot she links to - Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #87

Agreed A Little Weird Jul 2014 #100

Ha! I was just about to post that very link. Z_I_Peevey Jul 2014 #111

I have found myself incredibly indifferent. Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #27

I loved Garp! But it does glorify the rape MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #30

Why you shouldn't see the movie? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #88

I am firmly on the zappaman Jul 2014 #31

Where were all these dramatic threads when the frigging BOOK came out? Why is all the drama tied MADem Jul 2014 #33

Because The Book...Came Out WAY Before The Internet Was Created... WillyT Jul 2014 #38

No it didn't--I remember reading an article about women reading it while waiting to pick up their MADem Jul 2014 #42

Sorry... My Bad... Was Still Focusing On GARP... WillyT Jul 2014 #120

Garp was VERY edgy for the early eighties.... MADem Jul 2014 #144

Because most of us don't read crap so it is off our radar. Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #62

But most of us go to crappy movies...? I don't think that logic is operative. MADem Jul 2014 #147

Exactly the question I asked. Few people actually seem to have read what they're criticizing. mainer Jul 2014 #78

And few people seem to have read what they are defending. It goes both ways. Squinch Jul 2014 #81

I think many of the "defenders" are "defending" on the basis of the First Amendment, not the MADem Jul 2014 #149

Though many here are crying "censorship!" against those who object to the book, I think if you look Squinch Jul 2014 #158

Well, I say this all the time--the solution to speech is more speech. MADem Jul 2014 #195

But there are some interesting issues being brought up, even though the subject of the discussion is Squinch Jul 2014 #205

Thank you for my laugh of the day in an overly-serious thread! MADem Jul 2014 #148

it's an election year and someone is pulling our strings ecstatic Jul 2014 #112

Hopefully the admins are taking notes... nt MADem Jul 2014 #150

The most important reason I didn't read the book and why I won't go see a movie based on it, Dark n Stormy Knight Jul 2014 #151

DUer mainer is in the industry, and reports to us that it is a "crime against the English language." MADem Jul 2014 #152

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #35

I see some objection to explicit sex, but... TreasonousBastard Jul 2014 #36

+ 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! - K & R !!! WillyT Jul 2014 #39

Read my response BainsBane Jul 2014 #53

Of course books and moivies have been portraying rape as a means of seduction for a very long time BainsBane Jul 2014 #52

I didn't say sit back and enjoy it... TreasonousBastard Jul 2014 #63

You said concern about rape BainsBane Jul 2014 #69

That's not what I said at all, but... TreasonousBastard Jul 2014 #70

Society already and openly recognizes that Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #93

it's not objection to sexual explicity though Scootaloo Jul 2014 #40

Really WillyT? This a bullshit post. There is not one, NOT ONE person who has advocated Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #45

Hey LA.. One Of My Sister's Had A Boyfriend Kick Her Out Of His Corvette When She Wanted To End It.. WillyT Jul 2014 #49

Hey Willy. You are talking to a woman who was beaten and choked 'til near death by her husband... Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #56

And... it's Either A Game With "Safe Words" Or IT IS Not... WillyT Jul 2014 #57

WTF? Sexual abuse was inspired by the pill? WTF? Please read it. Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #58

And What If... A Woman Wanted To Pursue Her Own Fantasies ??? WillyT Jul 2014 #61

You didn't read it. Sit down, have your favorite morning beverage & then muse on why the "pathetic Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #64

Oh, Ana never signed the contract. Never. But Christian just plowed on through as if she had. Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #60

This woman is not pathetic and weak Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #47

You can say that again. H2O Man Jul 2014 #132

This woman is not pathetic and weak. Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #48

This woman is not pathetic and weak. Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #50

This man is not pathetic and weak. Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #51

This man is not pathetic and weak. Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #54

Smacks of censorship, Catholic Church style, with their list of forbidden books, Cleita Jul 2014 #55

And those classic books are still being criticized. Heart of Darkness is a perfect example. kickitup Jul 2014 #84

This is a fascinating display, is it not? Z_I_Peevey Jul 2014 #126

Thank you for your post. Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #153

Also, there is a reason these works are called FICTION, Cleita Jul 2014 #164

I have not seen anyone on DU3 advocate censorship. Have you? Please PM me the link. Thank you. n/t Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #165

Huh? Surely, you jest. eom Cleita Jul 2014 #172

I'd like those links also. And no. I'm not jesting. Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #174

I guess you've been in a cave this past week. n/t Cleita Jul 2014 #177

Nope. And I have read and/or participated in every Shades of Grey thread. Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #178

In fact I am quite the opposite and fully serious. Can you please, direct me to WHO on here said Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #176

You are the third person who is talking to me like I owe you something. Cleita Jul 2014 #181

How can I be in agreement with anything when I honestly I don't know what the fuck you Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #197

Censorship--I do not think that word means what you think it means Z_I_Peevey Jul 2014 #173

Yes, but if you remove those books from the shelf or stop Cleita Jul 2014 #175

And if I obtain multiple copies and hot-glue them all together, I will have a coffee table. Z_I_Peevey Jul 2014 #183

It's not a hypothetical but a metaphor. Removing ideas on a website Cleita Jul 2014 #185

And no DUer has advocated removing ideas on any website in regards to Luminous Animal Jul 2014 #189

This is a hypothetical: If I continue this exchange with you, you will see the light. Z_I_Peevey Jul 2014 #191

lol Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #202

+1 million Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #187

Then tell Skinner you want to abolish the jury system BainsBane Jul 2014 #124

amen. Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #166

I have nothing against the jury system. Cleita Jul 2014 #184

hugs. i feel your viewpoint. NuttyFluffers Jul 2014 #204

I've only read excerpts and more than one hilarious synopsis Warpy Jul 2014 #65

That's right. If you censor something, it only serves to get people, especially young people, Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #190

I love Erotica. I read it and I write it. Coventina Jul 2014 #66

And no one on here has tried to ban it. That's pure strawman. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #95

I'll freely admit, I've been away for a few days and haven't been involved in this latest kerfluffle Coventina Jul 2014 #129

That has been interesting. historylovr Jul 2014 #201

Yes. Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #68

I like these threads where DUers share lots of scandalous books to check out! IronLionZion Jul 2014 #75

Know any good ones? LongTomH Jul 2014 #186

Does anybody else have a bad taste in their mouth over the suggestion that people should not be Squinch Jul 2014 #76

The allegation that rape occurs in the book in question has already been disproven several times... brooklynite Jul 2014 #80

So they shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions? In the interests of avoiding censorship? Squinch Jul 2014 #82

You don't need anyone's permission to voice your opinion IronLionZion Jul 2014 #98

No one has ever said anything about anyone needing anyone's permission to read the book. If Squinch Jul 2014 #102

"shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions" IronLionZion Jul 2014 #105

I see that you are taking a phrase from my post, but I don't know what you are trying to say Squinch Jul 2014 #108

I was merely supporting your right to voice your opinion IronLionZion Jul 2014 #110

Though that doesn't answer the original question of why you were thinking anyone was saying that Squinch Jul 2014 #114

Bullshit it has joeglow3 Jul 2014 #91

careful with the word = bullshit. just sayin' Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #167

In the less precise sense, no. Chan790 Jul 2014 #117

Have you read the book? Squinch Jul 2014 #156

Unfortunately. Probably 100 pages of it...it's awful. Chan790 Jul 2014 #171

The Two kinds of people. hobbit709 Jul 2014 #77

A little Lazarus Long is always welcome. Blue_Adept Jul 2014 #125

I think we've become more nuanced and thoughtful. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #83

Thank you. kickitup Jul 2014 #85

I have a bad taste in my mouth over people pretending the book causes rape LadyHawkAZ Jul 2014 #89

+1 NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #200

I'm not sure we have become so pathetically afraid and weak malaise Jul 2014 #92

lemme fix that for you. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #99

I'm not interested in books that glamorize violence against women - TBF Jul 2014 #101

The complaint here is the same as against the song "Blurred Lines" gollygee Jul 2014 #103

Not unless they're advocating banning the book. MineralMan Jul 2014 #107

Not sure which objections you are referring to. merrily Jul 2014 #109

Can not believe ANY work by John Irving is mentioned in the same breath as EL James. Never mind your seaglass Jul 2014 #122

It's a tough old world when people criticize a book you've never read... LanternWaste Jul 2014 #123

Freedom of speech is not onecaliberal Jul 2014 #130

controvery here is not over explicitness steve2470 Jul 2014 #133

Is someone here lobbying the govt to ban certain books? NCTraveler Jul 2014 #134

I think you'll find that the author IS NO JAMES JOYCE, FGS. Are we not even to make literary WinkyDink Jul 2014 #136

Depends on the nature of the objections. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2014 #140

"pathetically afraid and weak???" I call it having a moral conscience. alp227 Jul 2014 #141

Let me introduce you to the organization that fights this idiocy nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #142

What '50 shades of gray' is: apnu Jul 2014 #145

My hair? WinkyDink Jul 2014 #154

BEST post in this ENTIRE thread!!!!!!!! nt MADem Jul 2014 #196

And sadly true! (Thank you!) WinkyDink Jul 2014 #206

A little background on the publication mainer Jul 2014 #155

I never did like being told what I could and could not read. In_The_Wind Jul 2014 #162

Nope. Everybody gets to have an opinion. MadrasT Jul 2014 #163

I am FAR from shy Aerows Jul 2014 #170

I think it's a coincidence that many of the same people were ecstatic over Iceland's porn ban Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #179

Is this about the "love=death" argument? If so, you might want to look to the 19th century CTyankee Jul 2014 #198

Yes. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #199