General Discussion

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)

78. The only place where war is truly symmetrical

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 03:46 PM

Jul 2014

Is on the sand table. If you play war games that will make sense. Just in case you don't, regardless of game system, both bring the exact same points to the table, or a difference so small, it is the same.

I can play the exact same statistics game for WW 2 and US civilian casualties, vis a vis Italian, German or Japanese. Want to really be horrified? All three.

So this is not particularly a good argument insofar as the horrors of war. War should always be the absolute last choice for a reason.

Israel is causing more damage because they have the technological edge. Iron Dome is also highly frustrating to Hamas. They expected to do a lot more damage. The system actually is not that effective, and if these were beyond WW2 Katyusha level artillery rockets Hamas would do far better. I guess some folks here would root for that though. Yup, got to that conclusion a while ago. I have read some posts that are code for the destruction and genocide of Israelis. This is ok though. And that hate is at a fever pitch in places like France.

Both sides are targeting civilians. When one side does it, meh, when the other does...and I will hardly forget that.

By the way, I would prefer if literally both sides stopped this, and those kids today hunkering in homes and shelters, grew up to serve very uneventful terms in their respective armies. Hell, it be best if their children could play together while their parents realized how much they actually have in common and worked to build bridges, not Uzis and rockets.

Just some things in common.

Both Palestinians and Israelis are despised in the Middle East

Both love books, and knowledge. One has built world class research institutions. The other could as well.

Both have been used in cynical power games by more powerful parties.

Others are benefiting from these games.

At one time both Arabs and Jews had a golden age of cooperation, which is not really well known.

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Most of the Palestinian casualties have been adult males [View all] oberliner Jul 2014 OP

Good post, Oberliner leftynyc Jul 2014 #1

The only one who ann--- Jul 2014 #4

So what's your brilliant answer leftynyc Jul 2014 #7

i guess you stop the rockets by not provoking Hamas.. frylock Jul 2014 #32

Reward terrorists? leftynyc Jul 2014 #50

The women and children are in hiding RobertEarl Jul 2014 #5

Thank you. LuvNewcastle Jul 2014 #18

Are you Palestinian? Bettie Jul 2014 #21

Imagine if Hamas put the women and children underground instead of weapons and fighters. nt hack89 Jul 2014 #31

imagine if they put women and children in a UN school setup as a shelter.. frylock Jul 2014 #33

Having seen that, why does Hamas let them stay there? hack89 Jul 2014 #35

you want them to take shelter in the tunnels that IDF is searching for and destroying? frylock Jul 2014 #37

You are right. hack89 Jul 2014 #38

riiiiiiiight. IDF would accuse them of storing munitions there.. frylock Jul 2014 #39

You seem pretty worked up about this hack89 Jul 2014 #40

really, what's to get worked up over? frylock Jul 2014 #41

Israel is killing anything that's human in Gaza. chimpymustgo Jul 2014 #2

No apologia oberliner Jul 2014 #54

Yep, they are shooting fish in a barrel (with US-made weapons) SoCalDem Jul 2014 #100

And that makes it okay? ann--- Jul 2014 #3

In the body of the message, I repeatedly asserted that it was not OK oberliner Jul 2014 #55

do you blue cat Jul 2014 #6

There's a twitter account from the Palestinian Minister of Health in Gaza oberliner Jul 2014 #58

OK, I hear you. bemildred Jul 2014 #8

But we can try to do a reasoned debate here on DU, can't we? oberliner Jul 2014 #59

It's better than TV in my view. nt bemildred Jul 2014 #60

Why in everything now, do we get the 'both sides do it and are to blame" argument? NightWatcher Jul 2014 #9

Because both sides *are* to blame. Orrex Jul 2014 #19

Neither justification nor apology presented oberliner Jul 2014 #61

Good post Lithos Jul 2014 #10

Thanks oberliner Jul 2014 #62

I saw that... Lithos Jul 2014 #85

I read your OP with interest and appreciate your stating your views on this... Spazito Jul 2014 #11

Thanks for the response oberliner Jul 2014 #63

Yes, the attitude you express does seem to be the attitude we are seeing... Spazito Jul 2014 #72

This message was self-deleted by its author whatchamacallit Jul 2014 #12

Clearly didn't read the body of the post oberliner Jul 2014 #64

No, you're right whatchamacallit Jul 2014 #71

Thanks for responding oberliner Jul 2014 #91

Fundies vs Fundies, except one side has much better weapons- snooper2 Jul 2014 #13

And the majority of alsame Jul 2014 #14

EXACTLY Most victims of 9/11 were adult males - I'm not sure that made things any better Douglas Carpenter Jul 2014 #16

Adult males are considered dispossable Harmony Blue Jul 2014 #15

I see what you mean now. bravenak Jul 2014 #94

I mostly agree, however... DanTex Jul 2014 #17

Fair points oberliner Jul 2014 #52

Link? Roy Serohz Jul 2014 #20

Well??? Roy Serohz Jul 2014 #22

Ministry of Health in Gaza provides updated info on its Twitter Feed oberliner Jul 2014 #42

Even accepting the Israeli claim on this intaglio Jul 2014 #23

These numbers come from the Palestinian side oberliner Jul 2014 #43

Ah, would you care to translate, intaglio Jul 2014 #51

OK oberliner Jul 2014 #53

So now we know the following intaglio Jul 2014 #82

THIS redqueen Jul 2014 #86

The Palestinian ministry of health has a very active twitter feed nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #65

UN: 82.6% of identified dead were civilians; 35.6% women and children Chathamization Jul 2014 #24

And your point is? hifiguy Jul 2014 #25

I thought I made several points in the body of the message oberliner Jul 2014 #44

cool story, bro. KG Jul 2014 #26

Ah, you've changed my mind. I used to think Israel was bad LittleBlue Jul 2014 #27

One of the dumbest threads ever on DU oberliner Jul 2014 #45

I'll second that. n/t riverwalker Jul 2014 #73

his "men" included male children and male elderly. It was disingenuous at best. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #103

It does not matter what Israel is TRYING to do. Maedhros Jul 2014 #28

Agreed oberliner Jul 2014 #46

Thank you. 840high Jul 2014 #29

Somehow I doubt theres any truth to that at all madokie Jul 2014 #30

It's coming from the Palestinian side oberliner Jul 2014 #47

Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #34

I'm not murdering anyone oberliner Jul 2014 #48

Well, at least you're making the effort on condemning the indefensible Scootaloo Jul 2014 #77

How exactly is the OP murdering anybody? nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #66

Per the UN 75% of casualties have been civilians (ie, not Hamas fighters). Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #36

Not disputing that oberliner Jul 2014 #49

When those bombings were going off nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #56

Thanks for the response oberliner Jul 2014 #68

Neither do I nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #70

the difference in the figures are a tad bit lopsided, you know Douglas Carpenter Jul 2014 #75

The only place where war is truly symmetrical nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #78

I would have to agree with the last part - except the Palestinians do not have the option of a Douglas Carpenter Jul 2014 #80

Israel will not have a choice nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #81

This message was self-deleted by its author lostincalifornia Jul 2014 #97

Yup, there is a word on the tip of my tongue nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #98

This message was self-deleted by its author lostincalifornia Jul 2014 #99

Seems like a function of who is out and who is sheltering jberryhill Jul 2014 #57

Today on CNN an Israeli spokesman said locks Jul 2014 #67

For those of you who haven't studied statistics Fozzledick Jul 2014 #69

Adult males who are civilians treestar Jul 2014 #74

Wow isn't that good news! Only 10% killed are upaloopa Jul 2014 #76

Please cite a source. CBC news has reported UN sources say that women and snagglepuss Jul 2014 #79

He gave it to you nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #83

This message was self-deleted by its author snagglepuss Jul 2014 #87

How exactly is the Palestinian ministry of health nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #88

I misread. I'm referring to reports that show 80 percent of the dead snagglepuss Jul 2014 #92

I am cynical enough to not be willing to assign nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #93

your numbers are wrong riverwalker Jul 2014 #84

Those are the same numbers oberliner Jul 2014 #89

I think I see where you made your calculation error oberliner Jul 2014 #90

Thanks for your thoughtful post, oberliner. countryjake Jul 2014 #95

You're welcome oberliner Jul 2014 #96

Actually, I've been a member in good-standing since early 2001... countryjake Jul 2014 #101

2/3 of deaths are women and children, per UN. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #102

That is not true oberliner Aug 2014 #105

I agree with the body of yr post, and I do admire you for taking the time to make it clear... Violet_Crumble Aug 2014 #104

Thanks oberliner Aug 2014 #106