General Discussion

countryjake

(8,554 posts)

104. If he's lying, then the IDF is the most poorly trained, incompetent, bumbling

Mon Aug 4, 2014, 09:07 PM

Aug 2014

military force in the world, right?

Gaza civilian death toll raises questions about Israeli military training by Julian Borger, Diplomatic Editor
Thursday, 31 July 2014

Experts ask whether poor soldiering skills and tactics are to blame, or if avoiding civilian casualties is just not a priority

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/gaza-civilian-death-toll-military-training-experts

The persistently high civilian death toll in Gaza has raised questions among military analysts and humanitarian law experts over the quality of training of Israeli gunners and their rules of engagement in such heavily populated areas.

The questions were given new urgency after a UN-run school was hit by five artillery shells on Wednesday, killing 16 civilians and injuring 100 more, mostly women and children, and the deaths of 17 others in a crowded market, as the Israel Defence Forces' (IDF) Operation Protective Edge against Hamas entered its 24th day. The IDF has repeatedly cited targeting errors, and blamed Hamas for operating in civilian areas.

However, Andrew Exum, a former US army officer who has studied Israel's military campaigns, said the IDF had a long history of mistakes causing many civilian casualties.

"Errant artillery and air strikes have unfortunately been something of a theme in Israel's conflicts in both southern Lebanon and Gaza over the past two decades. There are good strategic reasons to avoid using air power and artillery in these conflicts: they tend to be pretty indiscriminate in their effects and make it difficult for the population under fire to figure out what they're supposed to do to be safe," said Exum, who was a defence department special adviser on the Middle East.

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Highlight:

Chris Hedges: Why Israel Lies [View all] marmar Aug 2014 OP

The atrocities to which Hedges claims to have witnessed helps explain closeupready Aug 2014 #1

The De-Facto American rules of journalism that Chuck Todd openly acknowledged. Uncle Joe Aug 2014 #15

+1 Johonny Aug 2014 #17

They are paid VERY well to sell us shit sandwiches, huh. closeupready Aug 2014 #20

''Integrity is for paupers.'' -- the late Tim Russert (attributed) Octafish Aug 2014 #37

PLUS ONE! Enthusiast Aug 2014 #130

I hope the ghosts of Murrow and Cronkite haunt this hifiguy Aug 2014 #60

What a load of BS. The whole point of journalism is to seek and expose the truth. Dark n Stormy Knight Aug 2014 #68

PLUS ONE! Enthusiast Aug 2014 #128

Thanks for the thanks, Enthusiast. Uncle Joe Aug 2014 #129

Lies are the least of the crimes this Israel government commits. CtDemoFarmer Aug 2014 #36

+ 1 russspeakeasy Aug 2014 #113

For access: "IDF Censor Tells NY Times It Cannot Report It Killed 2nd Lt. Hadar Goldin" muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #132

What a glowing review of hamas seveneyes Aug 2014 #2

Pithy pithy pith pith! sibelian Aug 2014 #3

"There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. " marmar Aug 2014 #4

Or..."keeping your eyes shut is worse than being blind." nt kelliekat44 Aug 2014 #48

No sense of irony, I take it? nt bemildred Aug 2014 #5

No sense, just irony for the rest of us. ChairmanAgnostic Aug 2014 #7

Gaza is one of the most crowded places in the world magical thyme Aug 2014 #8

There is no military in Gaza like in Israel. It is all civilian. upaloopa Aug 2014 #29

The list of Palestinian terror attacks is extremely long. JDPriestly Aug 2014 #34

What does the murder of 10 year old boys have to do with Palestinian terrorism? The Second Stone Aug 2014 #41

After the Second Intifada, Israel built a wall to keep out Palestinian JDPriestly Aug 2014 #54

We're talking about the genocidal murder to 10 year old boys in Gaza The Second Stone Aug 2014 #66

What solution do you support? JDPriestly Aug 2014 #74

Criminal prosecution in the Hague for crimes against humanity for the people issuing the orders The Second Stone Aug 2014 #85

For both sides? JDPriestly Aug 2014 #87

if someone told you MFM008 Aug 2014 #71

And if Israelis are sleeping with one eye open, how will that help JDPriestly Aug 2014 #73

Bulldozing homes and olive groves to make the wall were a vicious act of war arikara Aug 2014 #117

Would you like to see everyone live in peace in the Palestine/Israel JDPriestly Aug 2014 #123

if they want peace lofty1 Aug 2014 #43

The Israelis would answer that they tried that and that the Palestinians JDPriestly Aug 2014 #52

Israel haters have built a wall of their own seveneyes Aug 2014 #53

I have asked the following question a number of times and received JDPriestly Aug 2014 #55

Under International law THAT IS THE RULE. happyslug Aug 2014 #118

I was asking about the Israeli refugees. JDPriestly Aug 2014 #119

The rule had been even before adoption of that resolution, return to home country UNLESS... happyslug Aug 2014 #120

It would have been very unsafe for Jewish people to return to parts of JDPriestly Aug 2014 #121

My point is they had THAT OPTION, an option denied to the Palestinians. happyslug Aug 2014 #124

And my point is that they did not have that option. JDPriestly Aug 2014 #125

Millions of Palestinians were killed by Europeans? happyslug Aug 2014 #138

Your question: JDPriestly Aug 2014 #139

The UN NEVER said the Israelis could kick out the Palestinians, happyslug Aug 2014 #140

Stunning to see this posted here oberliner Aug 2014 #141

I notice you ignored my comment about what to do about the Palestinians Refugees. happyslug Aug 2014 #142

Those are the questions that should be raised in negotiations. JDPriestly Aug 2014 #143

But we are looking at 5 million, maybe 10 million people. happyslug Aug 2014 #144

Present day Israel is not large enough for 10 million Palestinians either. JDPriestly Aug 2014 #145

They have to go SOMEPLACE, and that place has to be willing to accept them happyslug Aug 2014 #147

It's a real mess. Some of them could come here. But we could not take in 10 million refugees. JDPriestly Aug 2014 #148

How many of the Palestinians would have ancestral homes in the JDPriestly Aug 2014 #146

"the Israelis would respond that the" The Second Stone Aug 2014 #70

Maybe what Israel was offering to the Palestinians was not what they wanted. lofty1 Aug 2014 #95

Let's not bicker and fight about who killed who elehhhhna Aug 2014 #76

I wouldn't normally, but DU seems to have distanced itself JDPriestly Aug 2014 #81

But without the immoral Occupation of Palestinian territory by the Israelis, truedelphi Aug 2014 #84

Please tell me what you believe to be the immoral occupation of JDPriestly Aug 2014 #86

You are speaking as though the foundation of what I am talking about was a moral foundation. truedelphi Aug 2014 #91

Remember the period pre-Second Intifada? JDPriestly Aug 2014 #100

henry Siegman has pointed out that Israel leaders actually refused truedelphi Aug 2014 #102

Thank you for your post. n/t kiranon Aug 2014 #94

You've spent a lot of time in Gaza? Marrah_G Aug 2014 #45

A realistic taste of life in Gaza seveneyes Aug 2014 #46

Right now the realistic life there is no power, homes gone, almost 2000 dead Marrah_G Aug 2014 #50

"...drones overhead made us super paranoid that anywhere we went, we might get blown to bits..." Electric Monk Aug 2014 #57

give us your eyewitness report demigoddess Aug 2014 #51

yep obxhead Aug 2014 #61

A reporter stating a fact, what he himself saw as opposed to the propaganda sabrina 1 Aug 2014 #114

Wow - he went a whole 2 paragraphs before comparing Israel to Nazi Germany oberliner Aug 2014 #6

If der Schuh fits Orrex Aug 2014 #9

Such comparisons are not automatically invalid MNBrewer Aug 2014 #10

They may be, however, a clue. (nt) reACTIONary Aug 2014 #97

Hey, a Big Lie by any other name... Rozlee Aug 2014 #12

Thank you..If I hear one more time that "Israel has to protect itself" whathehell Aug 2014 #135

Wow! you had to search that far, how tiring for you intaglio Aug 2014 #14

It wasn't tiring oberliner Aug 2014 #16

are you in support of Israel's current military actions Voice for Peace Aug 2014 #19

Here are my views on that oberliner Aug 2014 #22

Lying to yourself is the worse thing a person can do. upaloopa Aug 2014 #30

I agree oberliner Aug 2014 #32

"Israel would never..." Okay. Let's look at this from the exactly opposite point of view. DetlefK Aug 2014 #31

But why? oberliner Aug 2014 #33

There are many reasons. DetlefK Aug 2014 #38

Which of those reasons do you think applies in this case? oberliner Aug 2014 #58

I think, it's a combination. DetlefK Aug 2014 #131

It's how right wingers stay in power. JoeyT Aug 2014 #39

thanks nt Voice for Peace Aug 2014 #62

"is just absolutely preposterous" - True, that. (nt) reACTIONary Aug 2014 #98

You are still flailing intaglio Aug 2014 #24

I don't blame the messenger for anything oberliner Aug 2014 #25

I think the Nazi comparison is a subtle form of irony on the author's part. n/t A Simple Game Aug 2014 #40

One whole sentence of genocide denial. The Second Stone Aug 2014 #42

I'm not outraged by the verbal comparison oberliner Aug 2014 #59

It is apt and it is genocide The Second Stone Aug 2014 #67

Your position is that the comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is an apt one? oberliner Aug 2014 #103

Most of the world sees it that way. Israel is despised around the world The Second Stone Aug 2014 #115

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Aug 2014 #11

K&R DeSwiss Aug 2014 #13

Yes, and it is Flat out Racism. 2banon Aug 2014 #21

Always demonize and dehumanize your supposed enemy. Typical tact throughout all history. L0oniX Aug 2014 #18

We did it in Viet Nam, Iraq, Central Ameria 2banon Aug 2014 #23

Indeed. Who was the real "savage". L0oniX Aug 2014 #26

And in Central America, if you examine the situation, you realize that truedelphi Aug 2014 #83

I didn't know that. 2banon Aug 2014 #96

kick. Thanks for posting. +1 eom Purveyor Aug 2014 #27

It hurts some of us deeply to see what Israel has become RufusTFirefly Aug 2014 #28

Bibi and his goons are duplicitous LIARS malaise Aug 2014 #35

du rec. xchrom Aug 2014 #44

Chris Hedges: Why Birds Fly and Fish Swim mwrguy Aug 2014 #47

k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t Laelth Aug 2014 #49

I'm shielding myself from this BelgianMadCow Aug 2014 #72

If you carefully examine that expression, "US hand over Israel" - well, truedelphi Aug 2014 #89

I do not think that the United States will abandon Israel. Laelth Aug 2014 #134

knr Douglas Carpenter Aug 2014 #56

Kick & Recommend! countryjake Aug 2014 #63

This statement by Hedges clarifies the Israeli approach to Gaza... KansDem Aug 2014 #64

I Believe Hedges Here.... supercats Aug 2014 #65

He was an eye-witness to Israeli soldiers murdering children mokawanis Aug 2014 #69

"in the uncommon cases when news of atrocities penetrates to the wider public" Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2014 #75

I am just trying to learn here, this comment from Hedges seems weird though randys1 Aug 2014 #77

Israel's "Human Shield" Hypocrisy Galraedia Aug 2014 #80

Thanks for this, I am checking with my Jewish friend, who is aligned with J Street randys1 Aug 2014 #82

Please check with an up to date World Atlas as well. truedelphi Aug 2014 #90

Everyone is so packed into Gaza that there isn't much that is non-civilian Marrah_G Aug 2014 #88

And that's if you include the 40% or so of Gaza... blackspade Aug 2014 #92

Yes- I forgot about that Marrah_G Aug 2014 #93

" . . . Israel’s Alice-in-Wonderland narratives . . . " Major Hogwash Aug 2014 #78

Kicking for those who might open their eyes a bit more… and those... MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #79

Until it's shown on CNN ... Babel_17 Aug 2014 #99

If only he had credibility Iamthetruth Aug 2014 #101

If he's lying, then the IDF is the most poorly trained, incompetent, bumbling countryjake Aug 2014 #104

he was reprimanded by his employer, the New York Times for speaking out against the Iraq War Douglas Carpenter Aug 2014 #105

He has been caught lying several times Iamthetruth Aug 2014 #107

Little secret. Most journalists spin stories toward a certain point of view..... marmar Aug 2014 #108

Means nothing Iamthetruth Aug 2014 #109

but you don't have any evidence to back up your claims, do you? Douglas Carpenter Aug 2014 #110

Yes Iamthetruth Aug 2014 #111

His appearance on Bill Moyers? Are you joking? countryjake Aug 2014 #112

EXCELLENT INTERVIEW!! - But, I have no idea what the poster you are addressing is talking about Douglas Carpenter Aug 2014 #122

Me either. countryjake Aug 2014 #133

Yes. The military calls it PSYOPS underthematrix Aug 2014 #127

K & R GoneFishin Aug 2014 #106

K&R ReRe Aug 2014 #116

Here's what I don't get - underthematrix Aug 2014 #126

Israel lies because they are hiring US political consultants expert at manipulating whereisjustice Aug 2014 #136

How do we, as a nation, avoid a national forum about this? Babel_17 Aug 2014 #137