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In reply to the discussion: Yes, it is getting worse still in Eastern Ukraine. [View all]reorg
(3,317 posts)21. if you set aside your patriotic blinders for a moment
you might notice that Grad rockets are being fired by the Ukrainians, not by the US, but the US still openly supports a "government" of more than questionable legitimacy, a goverment that includes a fascist faction that is responsible for the massacre on civilians in Odessa.
As to who fired Buks, we have some data provided by the Russians, but so far nothing in terms of hard facts has been made available by the Ukrainians or even the ongoing investigation. Radio traffic, black boxes, satellite photos, all under wraps so far. Nothing that proves the allegation that Buks were spirited across the Russian border.
Given the size of these missile batteries containing four 16-foot-long missiles the absence of this evidence prompted caution among U.S. intelligence analysts even as senior U.S. officials and the U.S. mainstream media rushed to judgment blaming the rebels and Russians.
In making that case, Kerry and other senior officials relied on claims made by the Ukrainian government along with items posted on social media. These snippets of evidence included ambiguous remarks attributed to rebels who may have initially thought the shoot-down was another of their successful attacks on lower-flying Ukrainian military aircraft but who later insisted that they had not fired on the Malaysian plane and lacked the longer-range Buk missiles needed to reach above 30,000 feet.
If the U.S. intelligence analysts are correct that the rebels and Russia are likely not responsible the chief remaining suspect would be the Ukrainian government, which does possess Buk anti-aircraft missiles and reportedly had two fighter jets in the vicinity of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 at the time of the shoot-down.
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/03/flight-17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/
In making that case, Kerry and other senior officials relied on claims made by the Ukrainian government along with items posted on social media. These snippets of evidence included ambiguous remarks attributed to rebels who may have initially thought the shoot-down was another of their successful attacks on lower-flying Ukrainian military aircraft but who later insisted that they had not fired on the Malaysian plane and lacked the longer-range Buk missiles needed to reach above 30,000 feet.
If the U.S. intelligence analysts are correct that the rebels and Russia are likely not responsible the chief remaining suspect would be the Ukrainian government, which does possess Buk anti-aircraft missiles and reportedly had two fighter jets in the vicinity of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 at the time of the shoot-down.
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/03/flight-17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/
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I bet if Putin stopped his incursion of sovereign Ukraine it would help matters tremendously. nt
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2014
#3
America is responsible for Grad rockets but Russia is innocent of the firing of Buk SAMs.
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2014
#12
Russia is pushing itself all across the ME, Africa and elsewere. Why is your condemnation lopsided?
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2014
#25
Let us know when you'd actually condemn Russia's incursion into the Ukraine.
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2014
#29
You're playing-up the Butcher of Grozny as staging a humanitarian internvention?
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2014
#34
That the neocons are duplicitious in no way exonerates Russia's incursion in Ukraine.
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2014
#38
Maybe they should go in there and stop the murderous shelling of ethnic Russians!
Cayenne
Aug 2014
#73
I saw a BBC report that over 200 Ukranian government forces had crossed the border into Russia
malaise
Aug 2014
#6
says the Ukrainian spokesperson for Ukraine's National Security and Defence Council (SNBO)
reorg
Aug 2014
#19
No, says the soldiers the BBC interviewed in Russia, and the Russian officer there
muriel_volestrangler
Aug 2014
#28
Russia Today, literally funded by the Russian government, is an independent source.
jeff47
Aug 2014
#53
still pimpin' for the pro-Rus-Si-A assholes who have now been caught creating mass graves
snooper2
Aug 2014
#17
Still calling me rude names, which only shows the weakness of your position.
another_liberal
Aug 2014
#42
"It is not alright to supply weapons to one side of a conflict just because we want that side to...
EX500rider
Aug 2014
#47
as mass graves are now being discovered that have been left by the the Russian rebels
Duckhunter935
Aug 2014
#57
One Of The Things That Makes You So Funny, Sir, Is You Are Just So Damned Predictable....
The Magistrate
Aug 2014
#89
When responsibility for a crime can be established, the guilty should be punished.
another_liberal
Aug 2014
#68
There are people being killed daily by shelling and bombing from Kiev's armed forces . . .
another_liberal
Aug 2014
#82
The USA is trying to serve up Ukraine to the IMF and trans-national corporations.
Emelina
Aug 2014
#86