General Discussion
In reply to the discussion: Chris Hedges: Why Israel Lies [View all]happyslug
(14,779 posts)The UN did approve a division of Palestine into two states, but never approved of removal of anyone, for such removal would require the use of force, and it was violence the UN was trying to stop.
Your interpretation would permit any government to kick out anyone from their home for the simple reason of having a "better" person in that home. The whole post WWII era was a rejection of that rule with the exception of Russia and the Eastern Europe in regards to Germans living in Eastern Europe. Stalin in the post WWII era did a lot of Ethnic Cleaning.
This was the complaint of the Arabs, the Jews were given control over lands not only lands that were Majority Jewish but lands that had majority Arabs living in them (The Israelis then removed most such Arabs during the War of independence).
As to negotiations, the problems of the Refugees must be addressed, and that means settlement of them someplace. Who do you want to impose such Palestinians on? The only place they want to go, is back "home" to Palestine, but Israel rejects that solution. No one wants to PAY the Palestinians to move elsewhere (especially true of Israel). Thus what is they to negotiate? Israel's position is such "Arabs" can be moved into the rest of the Arab world, the rest of the Arab World says, Arab is like Indo-European, so does Israel supports requiring Europe to take in Indo-Europeans from India that were displaced by others in India? No, Israel does not, but it is the same logic Israel is using as to the Palestinians, i.e. Palestinians are Arabs, just like people in India are Indo-Europeans. Thus the rest of the Arab World should take in the Palestinians, just like Europe should take in refugees from India.
To give it an American Slant, why not have Israel pay for the cost of moving and integrating such Palestinians, even ones accused of terrorism, to the US? Lets just take you home town, remove all of its current residents, and move the Palestinians in. That is what Israel did with the Jews from Europe and if it was fair and legal for Israel, the US can do it to its own Citizens to. Minimize costs that way.
As to your home town present residents, just tell them they are on they own, and it was good that they lost their homes without compensation to solve the problems of the Palestinians Refugees.
Ask yourself, how would your neighbor feel. Remember this would be without any compensation, they just lose their home. We have to keep the costs to the US Government down and all Israel is willing to pay is the cost to move the Palestinians.
The opposition to such a displacement would be immense, but that is what the Israelis did to the Palestinians in those camps. My example is to show the solution is NOT easy or cost free. Someone has to pay for moving the Palestinians but to integrate them into a society that would accept them AND at a cost that everyone finds acceptable. Given no one wants the Palestinians, the subject of what to do with them is just not discussed. Thus no negotiations.
Thus the issue quickly becomes what to do with the Palestinians, and I have heard none. Israel is caught in a position that Hitler found himself in the 1930s, Hitler did NOT want to keep the Jews in Germany, but Hitler could not just kill them either. Thus Hitler was the number 1 smuggler of Jews into Palestine in the 1930s. Such smuggling removed the Jews from Germany without killing them. It is only when that option was cut off by the British Navy in 1940 and the Invasion of Russia in 1941, did Hitler order the Death Camps. i.e when any other option was closed, then and only then did Hitler turn to Mass Murder.
Now, Hitler did not go avoid mass murder in the 1930s this out of the kindness of his heart, but fear of any back lash from outside Germany when Germany was still trading with most of Europe, and the US. Thus as long as Germany was at "peace" such peace prevented Hitler from Mass Murder. When Germany could no longer trade for Germany was at war with almost everyone in Europe, then and only then was Hitler able to do what he really wanted to do, Kill off all of the Jews.
I bring this up, for the present Right wing Government of Israel is in many ways in the same mind set. i.e. they want to get rid of the Palestinians, but dare NOT do mass murder for fear of a foreign backlash AND that is the only reason it is NOT done. On the other hand, if such restriction ever disappears, I fear for the Palestinians, for then they will be in the same position as the Jews were to Hitler during WWII.
Remember Hitler only reverted to mass murder when all the world was at war with Hitler. As long as Hitler had to take into consideration foreign opinion, Hitler had his followers harass Jews and occasionally kill a Jew (and required the wearing of the Star of David), restricted what Jews could do and drive as many Jews out of Germany as he could, but no actual mass murder (I did not say life was good for German Jews, but that they were permitted to live). When Hitler no longer had to take into consideration Foreign Public Opinion is when he started the Death Camps.
I bring this up, for the present Government of Israel is similar to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, hostile to the Palestinians but not willing to risk foreign out rage if mass murder is done. As long as we can discuss the Palestinians and that discussion is a factor on US support of Israel, the Palestinians are in a similar situation as where the German Jews of the 1930s, not a pleasant world, but one where they can survive. On the other hand, if the situation changes so that killing off the Palestinians would have NO affect on Israel, the right wing of Israel would jump at the chance. Thus I fear for the Palestinians.
Thus what is the solution to the problems of the Palestinian Refugees? Do we wait around for some sort of "Final Solution" or do we actual discuss what to do with them? The only solution actually on the table is to return home, i.e return to the present state is Israel, but that solution is rejected by Israel. No one has even mentioned another solution, and I would like to hear one. I mention moving them to the US, but will the American Right Wing support or oppose such a solution? If the solution is movement to other Arab States, how is that to be done and who is to pay for it? The Palestinian can not pay for it, thus someone has to. Given the tribal nature of most Middle Eastern States, movement of another "tribe" into their home country would be disruptive, for many people of the Middle East membership in their Tribe is more important then what country they are in. Egypt is an exception to that rule, but Egypt is the Nile and whoever controls the water of the Nile is the most important "Leader" in most Egyptian's lives. Thus to move Jews into Egypt except in the big cities would be so disruptive that it is a no go from the state. Jews in the Major Cities are different, but that means moving in people who have little connections with the rest of the people in that neighborhood and that would be disruptive as while.
Sorry, the problem of Resettlement of the Palestinians Refugees is the key to settlement of the Middle East, but to resettle them is to upset someone and no one wants to do that, thus the present system lasts from year to year. Resettlement of the Palestinians Refugee is the issue no one wants to address, but unless it is address they can be no peace.