General Discussion

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)

280. I'm old fashioned, and I think the economic/exploitation problems across the board would be best

Sun Aug 10, 2014, 03:14 AM

Aug 2014

addressed by things like a livable minimum wage, a solid social safety net... FDR new deal type stuff.

It's not about too much freedom, it's about people at the bottom not having enough options. When people don't have to hold onto shitty jobs they hate just to keep health coverage for their families, when they know they can make a fair day's wage for a fair day's work, and yes when we get rid of archaic laws that try to control the behavior of consenting adults vis a vis their own bodies- they are MORE free to make their own decisions- and sometimes those decisions are things that piss other people off, whether that's to bake cakes for gay weddings, fuck in front of a camera, or open a legal marijuana store in a state where it's legal.

The people who get pissed off about "freedumb" and folks doing things they don't like, are on the wrong track IMHO.

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There is nothing wrong with Porn & Prostitution [View all] Michigander_Life Aug 2014 OP

No one on this site has ever been "quickly shouted down". Scuba Aug 2014 #1

And no one ever should be. daleanime Aug 2014 #17

The OP maybe should be. cui bono Aug 2014 #166

Five Strikes within ninety days will definitely mufflle the tone, though. Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #168

This one would do better with a pizza. cui bono Aug 2014 #170

did I hear Pizza? Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #172

They may enjoy those 14 slices. cui bono Aug 2014 #175

Special made just for him Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #176

Not true. hifiguy Aug 2014 #70

This message was self-deleted by its author AverageJoe90 Aug 2014 #204

Just going to post this here. redqueen Aug 2014 #2

Chris Hedges the plagiarist. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #14

And... surprise surprise... opiate69 Aug 2014 #19

The bottom line is, porn isn't going anywhere. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #22

Ah, yes, Ms. Dworkin liberalhistorian Aug 2014 #146

That's been debunked at length on DU alone. n/t cui bono Aug 2014 #164

No, the debunking has been debunked. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #178

From what I read it has been debunked. As you say, she may not have said those exact words. cui bono Aug 2014 #183

She doesn't represent anything but the fringe of the fringe. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #186

This message was self-deleted by its author YoungDemCA Aug 2014 #189

The point as I see it is to enlighten people to the nature of most porn and how it can skew one's cui bono Aug 2014 #192

I originally mentioned Dworkin only in the context of her ineffectual battle vs. the porn industry Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #193

So you really don't think that most porn is about a woman being objectified cui bono Aug 2014 #196

The facial person also thinks "men ejaculating in womens mouths" indicates oppression. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #197

So you didn't bother to read that post at the link then. cui bono Aug 2014 #199

Yes, I did. Again, you seem to think that if I'm just exposed to enough supposedly self-evident Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #200

Well you mentioned something from a different post, so it didn't seem that you read what I linked to cui bono Aug 2014 #202

Eh, please don't tell me what I am or am not worried about. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #207

And now you are being dismissive about the treatment of a gender cui bono Aug 2014 #229

Just because someone says "this bothers me", doesn't mean they're automatically entitled to be taken Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #239

You've missed on all points. cui bono Aug 2014 #270

And you don't care that many people DON'T find porn degrading to women. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #278

I'm not causing any harm to anyone who doesn't find porn degrading. cui bono Aug 2014 #283

Sure. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #284

That takedown bordered on genius, sir hifiguy Aug 2014 #279

"...you probably have a deep fear of women having any voice at all." nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #245

It'd be nice if we could have these threads without the goofy armchair psychoanalysis Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #266

Yes, that would be a positive step, I agree. n/t nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #272

But you're fine with bringing up extremists who no one has quoted or is championing cui bono Aug 2014 #285

I think his bringing up Dworkin was somewhat questionable, yes. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #288

I'm basing it off his words. cui bono Aug 2014 #268

I dunno... While I do think "degrading" is in the eye of the beholder, I have to say nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #244

I think Max Hardcore is an asshole and absolutely a misogynist, but I also think he peaked Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #267

Fair enough. I realize the worst material isn't necessarily typical, though I would argue nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #271

And there's a lot of shitty music out there. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #273

Absolutely not. I'm with you all the way there. n/t nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #274

Dworkin was seriously mentally ill from the get go. hifiguy Aug 2014 #233

And no one ever wants to talk about her alliances of convenience with right-wingers. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #242

I would say that, if anything, is the greatest strike against her. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #247

MacKinnon and her ilk didn't care hifiguy Aug 2014 #275

Something like the old adage about going so far left you wind up on the right? nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #276

Eeyup. Exactly. hifiguy Aug 2014 #277

And . . . under the bus BainsBane Aug 2014 #92

Hardly. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #99

Wise men these people. JaydenD Aug 2014 #65

You reminded me of this redqueen Aug 2014 #84

yikes. �ejaculation on a woman�s face� isn't even on my list.... dionysus Aug 2014 #88

Well, obviously it's what every man who watches porn has been programmed to want. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #100

Heh. liberalhistorian Aug 2014 #148

This is such a narrow and inaccurate view of pron woolldog Aug 2014 #101

The linked author also thinks "men ejaculating in womens' mouths" indicates oppression. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #103

Found a pretty good critique of the good "Dr"'s film... opiate69 Aug 2014 #124

Go over to redtube or youporn or wherever and count them redqueen Aug 2014 #135

The documentary filmmaker you link upthread apparently considers blowjobs "degrading" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #161

Don't watch it anymore then AgingAmerican Aug 2014 #227

Should we also ignore racist content online? redqueen Aug 2014 #237

I would say AgingAmerican Aug 2014 #289

I would say sunlight is the best disinfectant redqueen Aug 2014 #291

I looked at the front pages of the sites you referenced- for research, of course- Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #269

It would seem undeniable that a large portion of porn is deeply misogynistic. Threedifferentones Aug 2014 #132

Thank you SO VERY MUCH for your thoughtful, informed comment. redqueen Aug 2014 #136

I wasn't even going to read this thread Kali Aug 2014 #143

That's the kind of post that gives me hope. nt redqueen Aug 2014 #151

Thank you for asking the question and looking at the larger context. excellent post. n/t Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #167

You rock. Many thanks for your perspective. Nt riderinthestorm Aug 2014 #179

Great post YoungDemCA Aug 2014 #188

I also want to acknowledge the excellence of this post. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #246

All threads supporting porn remind me of this: cui bono Aug 2014 #165

Thank you for posting that. redqueen Aug 2014 #212

"An anti-objectification, anti-porn, anti-prostitution feminist." Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2014 #81

I'm with you. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #144

I used to love porn. redqueen Aug 2014 #150

If women freely choose to be involved liberalhistorian Aug 2014 #145

This isn't about any individual or what they like. redqueen Aug 2014 #149

I guess it depends on whether you care about women. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #211

OMG. Does Noam never learn from past experience? Violet_Crumble Aug 2014 #205

This from the nipple alerter. newcriminal Aug 2014 #3

If you remember correctly, I wasn't against the nipple Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #4

"I love nipples." rug Aug 2014 #11

Who doesn't? Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #13

No one but you don't see them exclaimg about it in public. rug Aug 2014 #15

No, that's not common courtesy. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #16

"Nipples are wonderful." rug Aug 2014 #18

Who doesn't? Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #20

At first glance, I thought he was wheeling a loaf of bread. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #25

Here's the bread rug Aug 2014 #33

"Your father wanted you to have this, when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #51

Probably that guy in the Tosh.0 video clip Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #41

This message was self-deleted by its author chrisa Aug 2014 #48

Worst. Superhero. Ever. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #7

Consenting adults should be free to make their own decisions about their lives and bodies. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #5

Precisely. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #8

If they are of sound mind, I agree completely. hifiguy Aug 2014 #86

define *sound mind* just for clarification, please. legal terminology? Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #169

I tell you what sound mind doesn't mean- it doesn't mean "anyone who only does what I would" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #201

thank you, Mr. DeMontague. Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #210

I told you, i don't pay attention to personalities, here. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #240

Well, the legal definition derived from the M'Naughten case hifiguy Aug 2014 #232

Of course they should. But that doesn't mean we can't critique the sex industry nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #248

This ^ ^ ^ Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Aug 2014 #254

Part of my problem with these discussions- and really, if there's anything more pointless than a Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #264

All very true. Really, it's more "unbridled capitalism" I have a problem with than anything. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #265

You're braver than I thought mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #6

"You came in that thing?" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #10

Glad someone got it mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #12

Challenge me to a nerd-off, will you? Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #21

That would be mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #23

Dang, I was kinf of hoping this would go on a little longer mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #87

"That's what she said!" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #162

Well, I can't beat that mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #191

Dont beat yourself up. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #241

i think there can be plenty wrong with it but criminalizing it is not the way to go La Lioness Priyanka Aug 2014 #9

The more forbidden the fruit�. safeinOhio Aug 2014 #44

You always make such good sense. hifiguy Aug 2014 #73

Good post AuntPatsy Aug 2014 #109

Amen.... daleanime Aug 2014 #190

+1000 nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #249

Why taxed? leftstreet Aug 2014 #24

Why shouldn't it be? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #27

Was that the rallying cry behind legalizing abortion? leftstreet Aug 2014 #30

Oh, you were asking why is tax it specifically added as a talking point. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #34

Ah. 'Look, we can all make money off this!' leftstreet Aug 2014 #36

That's how you get the people further right onboard with anything ;) Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #40

Because taxes can be used for good things Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #29

So you're saying prostitution is a health risk? n/t leftstreet Aug 2014 #31

It has certain health risks associated with it. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #35

Sure. Your OP said there was 'nothing wrong with it' leftstreet Aug 2014 #39

There isn't anything wrong with it. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #45

I'd certainly consider it such. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #37

so should be ban people from having mulitple sex partners even if no money changes hands? dsc Aug 2014 #131

I didn't see the word 'ban' anywhere in my comment. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #160

So much wrong with society can be traced to poor education, or the lack of it entirely. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #250

Well, as much as I'd like to blame a lot of it on the RW Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #252

I hear you on that. I'm coming up on 3 decades myself (in October) and I already feel nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #257

One thing I realized about college... Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #259

Oh please. No offense. But you're still really young. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #293

Income tax and SS and Medicare deductions would be my guess Blaukraut Aug 2014 #43

Declarations of absolutes are almost always a mistake. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #26

+1000000 nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #251

Porn can be addictive, especially if you mix drugs with it and it can randys1 Aug 2014 #28

Tying your shoes can be addictive, if you mix it with high-grade heroin. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #243

The biggest thing wrong with prostitution... regnaD kciN Aug 2014 #32

Wrong. See post 55. Squinch Aug 2014 #57

Yes, and #68. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #75

Legalization increases trafficking and slaves. seabeyond Aug 2014 #78

Consenting adults should be able to fuck however they want, money or no money. phleshdef Aug 2014 #106

Are you arguing with yourself? You post has nothing to do with mine, seabeyond Aug 2014 #113

I was speaking to the notion that whether its true or not that legal prostitution... phleshdef Aug 2014 #115

Interesting to know slavery holds such little signifance to you. seabeyond Aug 2014 #116

Strawman. It holds immense significance to me... phleshdef Aug 2014 #121

Trafficking/slavery was my only issue so I hardly see it as a mere... Strawman. Done... seabeyond Aug 2014 #122

Really? Is that the way you read my statement? Really?! phleshdef Aug 2014 #123

This message was self-deleted by its author AverageJoe90 Aug 2014 #203

Since prostitution will always exist it would probably be best if it were regulated CBGLuthier Aug 2014 #38

The biggest irony here is that they make this argument for abortion LittleBlue Aug 2014 #42

Great post. Completely accurate. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #46

Feminists want to regulate porn and criminalize only the buying of sex. redqueen Aug 2014 #47

It's a new spin on an old idea LittleBlue Aug 2014 #49

Listen to a pimp? I don't fucking think so. redqueen Aug 2014 #50

You would rather persist with an idea that has never worked? LittleBlue Aug 2014 #60

She's in favor of making it legal to sell sex, but illegal to buy it, as in Sweden. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #253

This really is the only thing that matters here hifiguy Aug 2014 #77

I'm curious as to how specifically you define "regulate" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #52

The "who decides" question is what makes this entire line of thought hifiguy Aug 2014 #79

It was figured out a while back that "censorship" doesn't play well. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #80

I know it well. hifiguy Aug 2014 #85

Your post #79 need to be put into woolldog Aug 2014 #105

I found mysellf wondering how far from Bluebook I had hifiguy Aug 2014 #140

Greater protections for workers. Which we need in *every* industry, not just porn. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #255

You're describing puritans, not feminists. Thought you should know. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #128

This feminist wants to do away with porn and prostitution. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #213

Glad to hear from you redqueen Aug 2014 #214

The older I get the more radical I get. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #215

Same here... redqueen Aug 2014 #216

I cannot for the life of me understand why any woman wants to get married. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #218

Because girls are conditioned to be nice. redqueen Aug 2014 #219

This was funny. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #290

Bravo! hifiguy Aug 2014 #74

Wow. That is such a wrong and disgusting analogy. cui bono Aug 2014 #194

legalizing prostitution would not help women much, unless.... Takket Aug 2014 #53

I personally think we do a disservice to addicts when we label all potentially problematic behavior Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #56

which is pretty much exactly why I said porn addiction is between a person and their doctor. Takket Aug 2014 #66

I agree. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #67

Agree... Takket Aug 2014 #71

The word no longer has any meaning. hifiguy Aug 2014 #76

There can be a lot wrong with both JaydenD Aug 2014 #54

This study has been posted here on DU over and over and over, yet none of you valiant anti-prudery Squinch Aug 2014 #55

You're talking about global trafficking leftstreet Aug 2014 #61

Yes. But if a woman doesn't want other women or children to be trafficked, she's just a prude. Squinch Aug 2014 #133

That article includes many potential pros and cons of legalization. stevenleser Aug 2014 #68

Legalizing prostitution in Germany increased human trafficking. mythology Aug 2014 #120

As the snippet I posted noted. Legalization tends to increase inflows of trafficking stevenleser Aug 2014 #147

Your assertion that the article says that the probability of inflow is 13% is wrong. Squinch Aug 2014 #155

I stand corrected on that minor point. But the article does not support ANY of your points. stevenleser Aug 2014 #156

Oh, jeez, steven, that's pretty lame. So if you open up a huge new market for trafficked people Squinch Aug 2014 #157

It's not lame, it's the study you posted. They were very careful to state it that way for a reason stevenleser Aug 2014 #158

That would require giving a shit BainsBane Aug 2014 #127

Absolutely. And that's not going to happen. As you say, "not in my back yard" and "not Squinch Aug 2014 #153

Thanks for posting that! cui bono Aug 2014 #174

I heard iceland was going to ban all internet porn, and some people got VERY excited! Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #58

Yeah, that was an overreach, and a rather foolish one. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #258

It was more like a trial balloon Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #292

Maybe not in your utopia... hunter Aug 2014 #59

lol. nt. ecstatic Aug 2014 #62

I'm guessing Torture Porn is your thing whatchamacallit Aug 2014 #63

! he walked right into that one... dionysus Aug 2014 #89

If Obama does it. cui bono Aug 2014 #171

Be that as it may . . . Brigid Aug 2014 #64

Feh! Try working as a prostitute youself, and MineralMan Aug 2014 #69

They pay me to keep my cloths on davidpdx Aug 2014 #118

Kind of a funny picture considering he was an addict and a prostitute walked over his body CBGLuthier Aug 2014 #141

Agreed. hifiguy Aug 2014 #72

Strawman argument. cui bono Aug 2014 #231

How do you feel about the organ trade? Just consenting adults? DanTex Aug 2014 #82

Yes. After all, people who donate their organs do it because they like to meet people. They're Squinch Aug 2014 #180

On porn and prostitution: I trust Larry Flynt Capt. Obvious Aug 2014 #83

Yep. and when it comes to the safety of tobacco, I trust the RJ Reynolds company. nt redqueen Aug 2014 #90

Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #91

Regarding Flynt: redqueen Aug 2014 #134

Nothing wrong unless you count BainsBane Aug 2014 #93

Your link seems to be bad Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #95

It works for me BainsBane Aug 2014 #96

You were right, apologies Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #98

The paper is open access BainsBane Aug 2014 #104

Got it, thanks Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #107

It worked for me = Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #112

I assume anyone who opposes legalizing prostitution also favors banning construction? brooklynite Aug 2014 #108

Read the paper linked above BainsBane Aug 2014 #114

In principle, I agree with you Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #94

Thank you for at least giving the issue some thought. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #260

Well, you are ok with touture also! nt Logical Aug 2014 #97

blah blah blah Kali Aug 2014 #102

Yeah SSDD. Rex Aug 2014 #139

It is really very odd how he is parading his motives. Squinch Aug 2014 #154

I was taught that when taking True/False tests that an absolute statement will usually be a False Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #110

Not so cut and dry considering the easy access children have to it, frankly I do AuntPatsy Aug 2014 #111

Nothing wrong? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #117

Decriminalization does not work well in practice where it has been tried. Squinch Aug 2014 #182

Thanks for this article on the effects of legalizing prostitution. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #184

All very nice. But when you legalize, trafficking increases. You can think in whatever terms you Squinch Aug 2014 #209

When you criminalize, suffering increases. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #217

When you criminalize, suffering does not increase in the same way that it does when you legalize. Squinch Aug 2014 #220

Trafficking is not just about prostitution. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #222

"You should be advocating for economic justice." And in the meantime, while we wait for economic Squinch Aug 2014 #223

I see you have your steady view. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #224

"A steady view" is one way to describe the act of facing the fact that legalization of prostitution Squinch Aug 2014 #225

Your question is loaded. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #234

The reality of the situation is loaded. As you can see, there is really only one choice. Squinch Aug 2014 #235

Your concerns are noted. Zorra Aug 2014 #119

... lol ... Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #125

LOL, I was thinking the same thing. R B Garr Aug 2014 #129

There's nothing wrong with burping and farting, either. MADem Aug 2014 #126

Torture too ... GeorgeGist Aug 2014 #130

It's a tough old world when people hold opinions different than yours LanternWaste Aug 2014 #137

You're trying too hard. Rex Aug 2014 #138

+1 Iris Aug 2014 #181

When those industries go unregulated, there sure as fuck is. Orsino Aug 2014 #142

+1000 nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #261

Morality is always relative marshall Aug 2014 #152

I support both as well. Iron Man Aug 2014 #159

This message was self-deleted by its author cui bono Aug 2014 #163

Have you seriously not heard the stories about GIRLS being abducted and forced into prostitution? cui bono Aug 2014 #173

STOP! STOP LOOOOKING AT NAKED PEOPLE HAVING SEX! STOP IT STOP IT STOPPP IT AEEEEEEE Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #177

There's no need to read the rest of the thread. That clip says everything that needs to be said! Violet_Crumble Aug 2014 #206

Heh. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #208

Morality lessons from a torture apologist? historylovr Aug 2014 #185

"such draconian, anti-women views" YoungDemCA Aug 2014 #187

Even if both were completely free of exploitation, some would still be opposed to it. redgreenandblue Aug 2014 #195

Yeah. One only look at what acts are considered exploitative and degrading to see that. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #198

How would you know? Have we ever approached a condition where either was free of exploitation? Squinch Aug 2014 #221

Ted Bundy YarnAddict Aug 2014 #226

Ted Bundy said a lot of things Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #263

right, a liar and a sociopath. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #286

Nothing wrong with prostitution? War Horse Aug 2014 #228

There's nothing wrong with prostitution - why, wealthy women with all sorts of opportunities hedgehog Aug 2014 #230

When I see an old fat rich guy with a knockout babe ... rickford66 Aug 2014 #236

Shocker. A porn thread in GD goes 250 posts Boom Sound 416 Aug 2014 #238

300? How about 325, 325 350 okay. Can we get 400, 450 450, 475... Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #287

Legal, regulated, safe and taxed. Kurska Aug 2014 #256

It's. just. not. that. simple. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #262

I'm old fashioned, and I think the economic/exploitation problems across the board would be best Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #280

"...it's about people at the bottom not having enough options." nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #281

To be honest, though, some of these things have gone from pipe dreams to actual proposals Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #282

K and R bigwillq Aug 2014 #294