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JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 07:21 PM Aug 2014

Can we have a civilized talk about the U.S. water fluoridation industry? [View all]

Fluoridation of drinking water is not practiced in any of the world’s industrially developed countries outside the “Anglosphere” of the United States, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand, as well as about half of Canada and parts of the UK.

In matters of environmental issues as well as dental health, my default position is to accept the word of scientists, doctors and trained technicians and experts. In this case, for various reasons, I happen to prefer the word of the scientists and experts guiding policy in most of the industrial countries outside the United States.

(Necessary digression: NO! I don’t believe water fluoridation is a communist plot to poison our bodily fluids, or to prevent us from having dreams. In addressing the issue of the fluoridation industry I prefer to argue from evidence, and I haven’t seen evidence for any of that.)

The following chart shows tooth decay trends for “unfluoridated” and “fluoridated” nations since the 1960s, based on the United Nations World Health Organization country index for “DMFT” – a measure of the rate of decayed, missing, or filled teeth among 12 year-olds:



For decades the DMFT index has declined radically in all developed countries. It is true, as fluoridation advocates hold, that the period of fluoridation in a few countries has coincided with a dramatic decline in tooth decay in the same countries. It has also coincided with equally dramatic declines in countries that do not fluoridate. Some countries, such as East Germany and other members of the East bloc, fluoridated and then stopped, but the decline in DMFT continued there as well.

This evidence serves to falsify the hypothesis that water fluoridation was a major factor in improved dental health, and suggests that improved dental health results from other economic factors or public health policies. Fluoridation advocates agree that the supposed dental benefits come only from topical application, which almost everyone in industrial nations, including most of the poorest of children, already perform every day with a toothbrush and a tube.

The fluoride added to drinking water is a by-product of the production of fertilizers and refined aluminum, among other goods, and is classified as a contaminant by the EPA. The producers of fluoride wastes do not pay the full price for the cost of disposing of their pollutants, however. Instead, they are paid untold millions of taxpayer dollars by thousands of communities that then dump fluoride into our drinking water.

Best known among these producers is ALCOA, which during the period before and after the Second World War played the pivotal role (along with the Mellon fortune) in selling fluoridation as a practice that benefits public health. By the 1960s, the John Birch Society, also funded by big right-wing money (the Kochs, in fact), declared fluoridation to be a communist plot, as a consequence helping to discredit any discussion of the issue among reasonable, non-paranoid liberals.

So yes, I do believe that fluoridation of drinking water in the United States stands as an example of governments putting private corporate profits before the interests and rights of the public. It's hard to quantify all the different municipal funds going into the practice (and municipalities tend to obscure by offering statistics on the supposed savings due to the benefits), but it is likely in the low hundreds of millions of dollars per year, about a dollar per capita. I say we save all that public money and put it into programs for children in poverty.

Discuss.

(PS - In reviewing the above, I ran across this link to a 1999 statement in which the employee union local of the EPA headquarters took a stand against fluoridation policy. Remember when that was on the news? Ha ha. http://sdsdw.org/fluoride-facts/why-epa-union-opposes-fluoridation/)

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I wish marions ghost Aug 2014 #1
Well, this is a start. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #2
Water marions ghost Aug 2014 #3
Antifluoridation crankery is like global warming denialism. alarimer Aug 2014 #4
1) Please address the DMFT country comparison. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #5
I won't because it's bullshit. alarimer Aug 2014 #52
The DMFT data are a "conspiracy theory," you say? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #53
This message was self-deleted by its author Maedhros Aug 2014 #117
That piece really says it all. HuckleB Aug 2014 #25
I'm not. alarimer Aug 2014 #54
I didn't know Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Argentina, Mexico, Malaysia, and Israel were Anglosphere. NuclearDem Aug 2014 #6
They're not OECD. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #13
Map comes from Wikipedia as well. NuclearDem Aug 2014 #17
France = 3% natural fluoridation. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #22
You can't discuss water fluoridation without considering precious bodily fluids Brother Buzz Aug 2014 #7
Apparently not for you. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #9
Damned square Brother Buzz Aug 2014 #12
Gentlemen, You Can’t Fight In Here! This is General Discussion! Dr. Strange Aug 2014 #80
! Brother Buzz Aug 2014 #81
I've never seen such behavior in General Discussion. longship Aug 2014 #85
Now THAT... JackRiddler Aug 2014 #88
Are you serious? This is DU. If you need to be informed, 'no', closeupready Aug 2014 #8
You seem civilized about this. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #10
I subscribe to the "always question authority" school of thought. closeupready Aug 2014 #11
A light reading suggests that water fluoridation is most useful for people who don’t get other forms Chathamization Aug 2014 #14
Sounds like an argument for targeted health measures. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #16
Ideally? Perhaps. But I suspect that poor access to healthcare in the US might make broader efforts Chathamization Aug 2014 #18
It's totemic. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #32
Water fluoridation is one of the greatest public health achievements of the 20th century... SidDithers Aug 2014 #15
Exactly. HuckleB Aug 2014 #19
It's difficult to discuss because of the cray cray REP Aug 2014 #23
The "industrial waste" argument is a classic anti-fluoride trope. HuckleB Aug 2014 #29
It's been a while, but I don't recall hearing the fertilizer source REP Aug 2014 #31
Fluoride is processed from the byproducts of phosphate mines csziggy Aug 2014 #40
I'm not sure why you responded. HuckleB Aug 2014 #43
I posted facts as I know them from growing up with phosphate experts csziggy Aug 2014 #46
Uh, you posted stuff from conspiracy sites, while ignoring the content of my post. HuckleB Aug 2014 #47
Here you go - the Merck Manual is hardly a conspirarcy site csziggy Aug 2014 #49
The dose makes the poison. HuckleB Aug 2014 #57
When did I claim otherwise? csziggy Aug 2014 #69
When did you not claim otherwise? HuckleB Aug 2014 #72
THE REALITY, not to be confused with actual fact which may vary. WCLinolVir Aug 2014 #108
Are you saying actual facts support anti-fluoridationists? HuckleB Aug 2014 #110
where Sid, do they get the flouride that's put in the water? wildbilln864 Aug 2014 #84
I don't think so taught_me_patience Aug 2014 #20
Sigh. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #21
If I read it right, it's not anti-fluoride; it's concern about the source of that fluoride REP Aug 2014 #24
Very true. HuckleB Aug 2014 #26
Do the countries that do not have fluoridation plans procon Aug 2014 #27
That tends to be the case, yes. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #30
I've seen studies that go both ways, ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #28
This really angers me. NCTraveler Aug 2014 #90
Ha! nt ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #97
I've always been pro-fluoridation bhikkhu Aug 2014 #33
Fluoridation is not a water treatment. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #41
Fluoride helps to prevent tooth decay bhikkhu Aug 2014 #48
You are mistaken. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #50
Yes. Indeed. But you'll never convince an anti-fluoridationist. HuckleB Aug 2014 #68
Apparently its another massive conspiracy... bhikkhu Aug 2014 #75
But, but, but... HuckleB Aug 2014 #77
Those poor toothless Germans! JackRiddler Aug 2014 #82
We have pretty thorough health information for most of the countries in question bhikkhu Aug 2014 #86
The pretense that 1 ppm fluoride is separable as a factor... JackRiddler Aug 2014 #89
Cholera outbreak? Really? WCLinolVir Aug 2014 #112
That's pne thing we don't have to worry about, because of government water standards bhikkhu Aug 2014 #121
Fluoride has nothing to do with preventing water-borne diseases. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #128
Well understood bhikkhu Aug 2014 #129
My doctor had this book laying on his desk the last time I was there Holly_Hobby Aug 2014 #34
Even an MD can fall for pseudoscience. HuckleB Aug 2014 #35
Absolutely. Holly_Hobby Aug 2014 #36
There's no need to take that seriously, you know. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #39
It's always hard to know. HuckleB Aug 2014 #44
"In the age of Internet." JackRiddler Aug 2014 #55
Far fewer people were exposed to conspiracy BS. HuckleB Aug 2014 #58
How old are you? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #61
My age has nothing to do with anything related to this discussion. HuckleB Aug 2014 #63
Because you don't seem to have any idea what people were like... JackRiddler Aug 2014 #65
Ah, you've offered another baseless claim. HuckleB Aug 2014 #66
I think I've understood your formula. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #70
Awwwwww. HuckleB Aug 2014 #71
Even easier for a persona on DU to spread bullshit. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #38
The consensus of evidence shows that fluoridation is safe and effective. HuckleB Aug 2014 #42
The consensus of evidence as understood in most countries JackRiddler Aug 2014 #51
Hogwash. HuckleB Aug 2014 #56
Thank you for kicking this important thread. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #59
I understand that you think passing along bad information is important. HuckleB Aug 2014 #60
On this thread? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #62
It has, and it has. HuckleB Aug 2014 #64
Your behavior is outrageously dishonest. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #67
I'm not the one who is dishonest. HuckleB Aug 2014 #73
This message was self-deleted by its author Maedhros Aug 2014 #118
Yes. It's very easy for a person on DU to spread bullshit...nt SidDithers Aug 2014 #45
So glad I own a private well. - Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #37
Well laundry_queen Aug 2014 #74
And the scientific evidence supports your observations. HuckleB Aug 2014 #79
That doesn't mean laundry_queen Aug 2014 #83
Yes, questioning is good. HuckleB Aug 2014 #87
The question is answered. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #92
Repeating the same old anti-fluoride nonsense doesn't change reality. HuckleB Aug 2014 #94
Why do you repeat the same old dishonest nonsense? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #98
I've debunked your conspiracy theory. HuckleB Aug 2014 #100
You live in an imaginary universe. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #101
LOL!!!!! HuckleB Aug 2014 #103
Thank you for kicking this important thread. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #104
I engaged. You didn't like the fact that your concerns were not valid. HuckleB Aug 2014 #106
+1 JackRiddler Aug 2014 #130
What about DMFT among older populations? sorcrow Aug 2014 #76
DMFT in Japan JackRiddler Aug 2014 #78
Translation: Civilized discussion = a discussion where everyone agrees with Meeeeeee! FSogol Aug 2014 #91
Nope. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #93
Exactly! Please buy into a pet conspiracy theory! HuckleB Aug 2014 #95
Just dust off an old conspiracy theory. Precious bodily fluids! FSogol Aug 2014 #96
At all costs, avoid mentioning Germany, France, Scandinavia... JackRiddler Aug 2014 #99
Great topic. I do not drink tap water or use fluoride toothpaste. WCLinolVir Aug 2014 #102
The Hitler thing is a myth. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #105
And there is no basis for any of the other anti-fluoride claims either. HuckleB Aug 2014 #107
Sue today's Germans (and French etc.) for thinking otherwise. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #109
You do realize that you are running through every anti-fluoride trope, right? HuckleB Aug 2014 #111
Harvard study citing potential for neurotoxicity for children. WCLinolVir Aug 2014 #113
Context is everything. HuckleB Aug 2014 #114
Yeah- WCLinolVir Aug 2014 #115
I see that you failed to understand the reality. HuckleB Aug 2014 #116
Yes this is what you reference. WCLinolVir Aug 2014 #119
I love it. HuckleB Aug 2014 #120
"water fluoridation levels at the levels used around the world." JackRiddler Aug 2014 #124
And yet another pointless response. HuckleB Aug 2014 #126
Thank you for kicking this important thread. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #127
What other chemicals can we add to the water to help out? TampaAnimusVortex Aug 2014 #122
Do you mean for teeth, or for water-borne diseases? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #125
Why not put in any chemicals that can help people? TampaAnimusVortex Aug 2014 #131
Great point! Famously there's already Prozac(tm) in there. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #132
Looks like a correlation. What's the causation? BadgerKid Aug 2014 #123
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