General Discussion

TalkingDog

(9,001 posts)

27. They are in other countries and other cultures. Of course those places provide a social safety net.

Reply to Snake Alchemist (Original post)

Mon Apr 9, 2012, 04:03 PM

Apr 2012

In Amerika, Social Darwinism rules the day.

People in other parts of the world seem to grasp the idea that art and science (in both instances describing the urge to discover) go hand in hand to help a culture and a country thrive.

Einstein understood this intuitively: "After a certain high level of technical skill is achieved, science and art tend to coalesce in esthetics, plasticity, and form. The greatest scientists are artists as well."

But here, we don't value either the arts or the sciences. We look down on people who use their minds along with their hands because somehow that is too complicated. We'd rather have a binary system where you either work with your hands in an "honest hardworking blue collar job" or as "an educated elite".

Canada:
http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/article/573263--7-ways-to-support-artists

The Nordic Model:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:u87yk7mYN0IJ:www.ifacca.org/files/NordicModelSupportingArtists.pdf+countries+which+support+artists&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjMTJYKN3BkT2yqC6ujv5omYUW10nh-xWYNs1xxer1MUsX7KnaUgbh7xx1KwBvNTt1WLyh4PTchCy6zD2W20AzB0HBzCEvbAStzUXCI5GDvmopQ_B_rRwb9hbLsGRBIk2pwmLTd&sig=AHIEtbRoy9b7yo0vu6BVjeGWR0Nb4XvvwQ

Online Book: Why are Artists Poor?
http://books.google.com/books/about/Why_Are_Artists_Poor.html?id=DukoxJd3SZ0C

Financing the Arts and Culture in the EU:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:aotxYW9eNjQJ:www.culturalpolicies.net/web/files/134/en/Financing_the_Arts_and_Culture_in_the_EU.pdf+do+European+visual+artist+get+government+support?+lottery&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjuW7GEaeV38mfF9rcWqj259UGdIBs33Te6e2UzQ6W86gJpFSSJuHOMV9c7PW0sRlrS-HJCA_3Vmf9VIMoLko0IDdW_KsX3-zQTxjYjrT4vYn4aQn6LPxoEj3nEuyDMz3e7ll9g&sig=AHIEtbT-t-i76vsIaAbyMoOkbp1mRJfz_g

Where subsidies, grants and awards are provided to artists, along with a strong social safety net. The study finds the government, in general to be the largest supporter of the arts and of artists.

I've got no feed back on "how much" other than basic healthcare, rent subsidies and food aid.

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Should artists be paid a living wage? [View all] Snake Alchemist Apr 2012 OP

Out of Thomas Kinkaide's estate?? izquierdista Apr 2012 #1

That's an interesting question el_bryanto Apr 2012 #2

No hack89 Apr 2012 #3

How many great artists of various types were popular in their day? libtodeath Apr 2012 #11

How many more absolutely lousy artists were there that really needed a career change? hack89 Apr 2012 #16

We can afford it. But we would rather kill people instead. Cobalt Violet Apr 2012 #18

Well said! libtodeath Apr 2012 #19

No - the money needs to go to education, heath, housing, social safety networks. hack89 Apr 2012 #23

We can afford all that too! We're not a poor country. Cobalt Violet Apr 2012 #29

You contradicted yourself. Trillo Apr 2012 #62

By that I mean the present system of federal, state and local grants to arts groups hack89 Apr 2012 #64

If we had a strong social safety net, we'd have more artists. hunter Apr 2012 #101

And if worms carried .45's the birds wouldn't fuck with them. hack89 Apr 2012 #106

You put it in the big picture marions ghost Apr 2012 #113

Me too. CAPHAVOC Apr 2012 #25

So if I label myself an artist, the government should pay me a living wage aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #74

I don't think it right that actual artists should suffer because of a few dishonest folks like you. Cobalt Violet Apr 2012 #79

Of course they would aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #102

Yes. If Adolf Hitler had been paid, he might've stayed out of politics. nt raccoon Apr 2012 #4

Hitler might have been another Thomas Kinkade! hunter Apr 2012 #50

Sounds like a good idea for an alternate history! nt raccoon Apr 2012 #83

No JustAnotherGen Apr 2012 #5

I'm not sure from what this discussion stems... vi5 Apr 2012 #6

+1 MadrasT Apr 2012 #20

I should have also added.... vi5 Apr 2012 #48

Subsidizing sports stadiums is somewhat a transanction on an open market JonLP24 Apr 2012 #85

No. Daniel537 Apr 2012 #7

I think the notion that creativity needs to be sacrificed for the sake of a "job" is sad libtodeath Apr 2012 #8

LOL snooper2 Apr 2012 #9

Laugh at FDR then libtodeath Apr 2012 #15

well put. A healthy, well-rounded society would do this. villager Apr 2012 #26

I think what you and possibly FDR are missing is that most people are assholes el_bryanto Apr 2012 #28

what should that basic amount be? nt Snake Alchemist Apr 2012 #59

Most people will choose to contribute by sitting in front of the television. Codeine Apr 2012 #81

"...let everyone pursue how best they can fill the needs and desire of society" OneTenthofOnePercent Apr 2012 #120

Everybody should be paid a living wage. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2012 #10

So if I've got a decent amount saved up, can I then become an "artist" so I can get the essentials dkf Apr 2012 #53

Yes, if they work hard to sell it. cbdo2007 Apr 2012 #12

Most artists have 'real' jobs to supplement their meager income closeupready Apr 2012 #13

Personally, I would just like the economy to be healthy NV Whino Apr 2012 #14

Depends, who do they work for ... no? JoePhilly Apr 2012 #17

Actually, there are official qualifications and certifications. rrneck Apr 2012 #21

My father was an artist, and he held none of those classifications. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #66

That "something else" is at the heart of it, isnt it? rrneck Apr 2012 #69

This in an excellent example of why critical thinking should be taught in school... TalkingDog Apr 2012 #30

I visited MOMA in NYC a year or two ago with my wife... LOL! OneTenthofOnePercent Apr 2012 #123

Everyone should be guaranteed what they need to survive killbotfactory Apr 2012 #22

Yes Cobalt Violet Apr 2012 #24

They are in other countries and other cultures. Of course those places provide a social safety net. TalkingDog Apr 2012 #27

I don't see anything about a living wage in any of those links. Snake Alchemist Apr 2012 #88

No, because anyone can call themselves an "artist". Nye Bevan Apr 2012 #31

Depends on the artist's talent, training and work ethic Freddie Stubbs Apr 2012 #32

Every artist has to decide how much of the marketplace s/he will allow into the studio. rrneck Apr 2012 #33

Impractical, but we should definitely bring back NEA grants to individual artists frazzled Apr 2012 #34

How much should the grants be? nt Snake Alchemist Apr 2012 #89

Everyone should be paid a living wage. Starry Messenger Apr 2012 #35

Not necessarily, BUT SoCalDem Apr 2012 #36

Interesting question. One time, MineralMan Apr 2012 #37

If an artist, artisan, brick layer, dentist, hair stylist, etc. cannot support themselves with their Opportunityknocks Apr 2012 #38

They are part of "everyone" so I'm going with yes. TheKentuckian Apr 2012 #39

If they are just getting a living wage I'd say they need new representation.... Bluenorthwest Apr 2012 #40

Most artists I know, the ones that stay with it and become successful, make a lot more money Cleita Apr 2012 #41

The day we do, I'm quitting my job to become an artist Taitertots Apr 2012 #42

fdr did and around her we still have the post office murals that were painted in the 30s.. madrchsod Apr 2012 #43

Our post office too! I love it that we have that mural! CTyankee Apr 2012 #47

There was a group of painters known as the Florida Highwaymen who did paintings of Opportunityknocks Apr 2012 #61

Sure same as everybody else should. Artists are a special breed, I know many, mostly musicians, Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #44

Should an original poster respond to replies to a ridiculous proposition? Lint Head Apr 2012 #45

not when he's out looking for an obscure car part all day Snake Alchemist Apr 2012 #58

Why not? Look at what FDR did: CTyankee Apr 2012 #46

I'm not sure that "wage" is the proper measure onenote Apr 2012 #49

Ain't that the damn truth guitar man Apr 2012 #75

It worked during the Great Depression. hunter Apr 2012 #51

fat chance kpete Apr 2012 #52

Fine artists should be paid based on what their talent produces - lynne Apr 2012 #54

Everyone should be guaranteed the minimum needed to sustain their lives CreekDog Apr 2012 #55

Bingo. nt rrneck Apr 2012 #72

Of course ... surrealAmerican Apr 2012 #56

Yes, my music should be subsidized. MrSlayer Apr 2012 #57

I would say yes. It's kind of sad really. Artists are among the most Proles Apr 2012 #60

This guy did a Groupon and ended up selling about 1,000 drawings of cats! IndyJones Apr 2012 #63

Paid by who? aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #65

In 1987, some "artist" dropped a crucifix in a jar of urine and photograped it badtoworse Apr 2012 #67

So, you would live in a world where market value is the sole determinant of art? Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #77

I would live in a world where market value should be the determinant of what an artist is paid. badtoworse Apr 2012 #84

Your idea would mean the world would never have known the beauty of Van Gogh, as just one example. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #91

If your art isn't good enough for you to make a living on your own,... badtoworse Apr 2012 #94

Was Van Gogh paid a living wage by the government? aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #103

No he wasn't. He was, thankfully, sustained by his brother who also didn't like his work. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #104

No I got that you were trying to create a strawman aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #105

Got it, government bad, bootstraps good. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #107

Where are you going with this? aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #109

So, are you saying you'd get rid of the NEA? geardaddy Apr 2012 #112

I am saying that I don't think the government should decide what is art aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #118

So, would you, if you were in gov't, advocate the closing of the NEA. geardaddy Apr 2012 #121

You forgot a comma aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #122

Yes, I forgot a comma. geardaddy Apr 2012 #124

It's not a little program. I think Adam Smith created a brilliant system that taken in whole works, Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #115

I believe in equal pay for equal work aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #117

How are you going to define equal work? It's relative. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #126

My point exactly aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #127

I think this would be an excellent topic to discuss further. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #129

Yikes, this sounds like right-wing drivel from 1993 frazzled Apr 2012 #130

So why don't you explain what makes it so artistic badtoworse Apr 2012 #131

Why is it OK to judge one person's profession and not another's? ecstatic Apr 2012 #68

For emplyed or self-employed artists? nt Snake Alchemist Apr 2012 #86

Thank you! Cobalt Violet Apr 2012 #111

By whom? nt Honeycombe8 Apr 2012 #70

Yes, if they are an employee. HooptieWagon Apr 2012 #71

Kinkade was a "real artist"... GReedDiamond Apr 2012 #73

You seem like as interesting person. I have 2 questions for you, if you are willing. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #76

Response... GReedDiamond Apr 2012 #92

Thanks. Did you know that The Constitution specifies the power to Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #96

I said that I support govt funding... GReedDiamond Apr 2012 #97

No, and I am an artist quaker bill Apr 2012 #78

Artists should be paid for what ever they can sell JonLP24 Apr 2012 #80

I am an artist. Everyday, all day, I create beauty. babydollhead Apr 2012 #82

Fantastic stuff you have, there IDemo Apr 2012 #95

thank you! babydollhead Apr 2012 #100

Should everybody be paid a living wage? nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #87

Being an artist is a calling... WCGreen Apr 2012 #90

...is answered and addressed in this context I think LanternWaste Apr 2012 #93

Artists can claim exemption from income tax in the Rep. of Ireland geardaddy Apr 2012 #110

That's it right there. Thank you. n/t Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #116

Beat Plowshares into Paint Brushes? One_Life_To_Give Apr 2012 #98

Yes, but they are small business owners in essence. aikoaiko Apr 2012 #99

Artists are paid a living wage, if they choose to do commercial work. Marr Apr 2012 #108

My dad is an artist. His career was teaching. hunter Apr 2012 #128

Yes--everyone should be paid a living wage. Puregonzo1188 Apr 2012 #114

No... by whom would they be paid? OneTenthofOnePercent Apr 2012 #119

Yes. guardian Apr 2012 #125