General Discussion

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)

125. ISIL and ISIS exist because of good intentions.

Wed Aug 20, 2014, 06:18 PM

Aug 2014

Bush thought he had the best of intentions invading Iraq.
Obama had the best of intentions in encouraging the Arab Spring, which was a proximate cause of the Syrian civil war, which was a proximate cause of ISIL and ISIS.

The winning powers of ww1 had the best of intentions in dividing up the Ottoman Empires.

If there were anything I could do to change the middle east for the better it would be a region-wide ban on marrying your cousins. Inbreeding creates clannishness. Outbreeding does not. The modern nation state is not possible without greater social trust than is possible with cousin marriage. Nation-states only arose in europe after the catholic church banned cousin marriage.

We can't fix these people and the region is best avoided.

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Q: Why Did an American Journalist Get His Head Cut Off? [View all] grahamhgreen Aug 2014 OP

Bullshit. randome Aug 2014 #1

Exactly. PragmaticLiberal Aug 2014 #3

And why did those inhuman monsters come into being? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #7

I know where you're going and you're right. PragmaticLiberal Aug 2014 #9

I don't understand why or who you're arguing with sammythecat Aug 2014 #136

What is really special is that it is repeated in this thread by 4 or 5 people. Rex Aug 2014 #138

I'm not arguing with anyone. PragmaticLiberal Aug 2014 #145

Ok, I get what you're saying sammythecat Aug 2014 #159

Agree! Bush and his cohorts destroyed a country for no reason, and Bush and his cohorts do RKP5637 Aug 2014 #180

Every action and non-action we take, or don't take, affects others. randome Aug 2014 #11

I see it as the root cause of the horror, just like Vietnam was the root cause of the Khmer Rouge. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #14

It's a zero-sum argument. What are you going to do? Kill Bush, Junior? randome Aug 2014 #25

You mean Saudi Arabia? "You can't win it" - GWB grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #29

If there was a foreign policy I would be 100% behind, it would be to stand up more for human rights. randome Aug 2014 #36

Point of agreement. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #114

I can see that point. randome Aug 2014 #124

The argument I'm making is that we are the problem in the ME, not the solution. Backed by grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #176

The reality is... Chan790 Aug 2014 #195

Good post. 840high Aug 2014 #155

No not kill GWB, but IMPEACH HIM. napi21 Aug 2014 #254

Excellent analogy. nt gateley Aug 2014 #182

Saddam Hussein kept the monsters in check magical thyme Aug 2014 #259

If the white people in Ferguson won't accept their fellow African-American citizens malaise Aug 2014 #38

I dislike this argument... Chan790 Aug 2014 #99

Had Bush not invaded, James foley would be alive. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #183

That's a badly-flawed "what-if chain" argument. Chan790 Aug 2014 #194

They came out of Syria BainsBane Aug 2014 #130

I read that they originated in Iraq. Al Baghdadi was held prisoner TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #163

They came out of Al Qaeda in Iraq BainsBane Aug 2014 #166

We all have a choice about becoming inhuman monsters treestar Aug 2014 #198

come into being? They were always there. They are killing Muslims and minorities. still_one Aug 2014 #204

Really? And where was ISIS before we invaded Iraq? - Non-existent. Cause and effect. Don't chase the grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #5

The only thing to chase is ISIS. randome Aug 2014 #13

For how long? What is the mission? Chasing? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #19

How could anyone answer the question 'How long'? randome Aug 2014 #31

I know another group that's getting a lot of media attention for their zeal for killing notadmblnd Aug 2014 #181

Yet, peple in our own country torture with impunity, should we not prosecute those at home who grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #238

ISIL and ISIS exist because of good intentions. AngryAmish Aug 2014 #125

very interesting perspective on the situation. dionysus Aug 2014 #188

Indeed. In_The_Wind Aug 2014 #6

This. conservaphobe Aug 2014 #40

You could go even further back and say Barbara Bush is responsible for Iraq. randome Aug 2014 #46

I absolutely agree. nt conservaphobe Aug 2014 #47

good memory - she caused a lot of the evil after forcing her sons to steal the presidency i think samsingh Aug 2014 #105

Your method of violence has provided what solution in the Middle East? You've cost us grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #121

Not my method. I was against the Iraq War. conservaphobe Aug 2014 #142

It's a trap. A perpetration of the neo-con vision. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #184

yes ISIS qazplm Aug 2014 #147

Saudi Arabia and Iran can take care of ISIS, might be good for them. We need to take care of our own grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #185

LOL! Rex Aug 2014 #57

George Bush didn't invade Iraq? Octafish Aug 2014 #73

It's NOT that...it is that you are supposed to have moved on already. Rex Aug 2014 #177

Real Road Scholars. Octafish Aug 2014 #196

"road scholars"? redqueen Aug 2014 #197

Sorry, redqueen. It is a Terrible Pun. Octafish Aug 2014 #221

Aha redqueen Aug 2014 #222

Oh duh there is a link...lol Rex Aug 2014 #200

What does a lecture on a dark matter detector in 2009 have to do with techniques used redqueen Aug 2014 #207

Sigh Rex Aug 2014 #210

I asked a question and commented on the thread. redqueen Aug 2014 #213

Ya why would I answer insults with insults...strange of me right? Rex Aug 2014 #216

This message was self-deleted by its author Octafish Aug 2014 #229

precisely samsingh Aug 2014 #103

Yes, pure fucking evil... like the fuckers that dropped a-bombs on civilian populations in ww2 whatchamacallit Aug 2014 #137

Agree 100% blueamy66 Aug 2014 #148

Saddam killed all of the religious extremists in his country. ISIS would not exist if he were still chrisa Aug 2014 #161

Just like the Afghan mujahedeen that the US cheerfully supported in the 80s eridani Aug 2014 #191

ProAmnesia bobduca Aug 2014 #219

Do you really believe that the people in the Middle East malaise Aug 2014 #263

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Aug 2014 #2

unbelievable Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #4

Retaliation for US airstrikes on ISIS... HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #8

Can't argue these facts gratuitous Aug 2014 #10

And that explains why they kidnap women and girls and kill so many non-Americans. randome Aug 2014 #18

Thank you. redqueen Aug 2014 #22

I think Satan just told Hitler to fire up the Zamboni...you and I msanthrope Aug 2014 #49

LMAO!! Behind the Aegis Aug 2014 #91

+1 theHandpuppet Aug 2014 #54

Agree leftynyc Aug 2014 #64

+1, blaming the United States for everything is ChazII Aug 2014 #128

That's nice to know leftynyc Aug 2014 #144

Once more, agree 100% ChazII Aug 2014 #165

It's bizarre. Even if you stipulate that yes, there would be no ISIS if not for those wars, redqueen Aug 2014 #134

ISIS appears to be taking revenge on those they can reach gratuitous Aug 2014 #24

Were they thinking of revenge when they kidnapped school children? randome Aug 2014 #37

Me? No, I couldn't behead a stranger gratuitous Aug 2014 #53

I couldn't behead anyone, either. randome Aug 2014 #55

Then I suggest you enlist, or apply for a job with a mercenary outfit gratuitous Aug 2014 #60

Letting people die when we could prevent it won't drive out this violence, either. randome Aug 2014 #100

ding ding ding, a winner still_one Aug 2014 #205

So why is ISIS killing leftynyc Aug 2014 #21

Hanh? gratuitous Aug 2014 #27

So these animals are responsible for nothing? leftynyc Aug 2014 #58

Zero credibility? How can you say that when the use of military force has been proven time and grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #169

When the far left leftynyc Aug 2014 #190

Not my part of the democratic socialist center of the country! The use of force in the ME is an grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #257

So you were okay leftynyc Aug 2014 #261

Nonsense. Military force is often effective in hughee99 Aug 2014 #239

So let's spend another trillion and see what happens? how bout we leave and fix our home. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #258

so that's why the British ISIS member is killing innocent people in Syria, Iraq etc ? JI7 Aug 2014 #42

Republicans would argue against those facts... Rex Aug 2014 #59

No. ISIS executioners are the direct and proximate cause of his death. redqueen Aug 2014 #12

Agreed, what led to ISIS? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #20

Being taught at a young age that a sky daddy wants them to rape, plunder and pillage seveneyes Aug 2014 #30

*CRICKETS* Rex Aug 2014 #93

I don't argue with creationists either. redqueen Aug 2014 #97

You mean you run off in defeat. Rex Aug 2014 #98

LOL, 'defeat'... fucking hell. redqueen Aug 2014 #101

Bye then. Rex Aug 2014 #102

The Sunni - Shia schism back in 632 FrodosPet Aug 2014 #158

You're right, of course, the conflict goes back 1400 years so WTF are we doing there, grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #167

Hmmm...I did not know I was saying that FrodosPet Aug 2014 #171

They were killing eachother a lot less before we arrived. We are the abusive husband of the middle grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #173

It's a lot more complex than just saying it was Bush's war treestar Aug 2014 #199

So who do you blame for leftynyc Aug 2014 #15

Again, blowback for our middle east meddling. Goes back supporting Osama in Afganistan. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #26

So is the US is responsible leftynyc Aug 2014 #56

They've been doing it for 1400 years, but they weren't doing it to us. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #77

There is no excuse for ISIL murdering people seveneyes Aug 2014 #16

Or torture.... not even "patriotism" grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #23

WOOT! Blame America first! FSogol Aug 2014 #17

The terrorist we helped to overthrow Assad in Syria. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #32

So Assad is no longer in power? And we somehow become responsible for every civil war? FSogol Aug 2014 #41

what ?? you do know Assad has not been overthrown ? and just recent reporting was about JI7 Aug 2014 #45

Maybe if Assad had stepped down moondust Aug 2014 #174

But it is our fault. We removed Saddam Hussein, which allowed fundamentalism to flourish in Iraq. chrisa Aug 2014 #164

Did you forget that we removed the one guy brentspeak Aug 2014 #236

Much easier to act like a child and post Rex Aug 2014 #265

bagdadi was a nobody untill we arrested him and held him for 6 years leftyohiolib Aug 2014 #28

This is the next generation we were warned about. RandiFan1290 Aug 2014 #33

Fuck that. B2G Aug 2014 #34

And f#ck torturers too, right? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #35

I'm not following you. Maedhros Aug 2014 #44

YEP. Rex Aug 2014 #63

ISIS is to blame, this is like wingnuts blaming illegal immigrants who murder JI7 Aug 2014 #39

Where did ISIS come from? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #116

they come from all over , the guy who killed the reporter was likely a Brit. JI7 Aug 2014 #127

didn't the guy who killed him have a British Accent ? JI7 Aug 2014 #43

Yes, and the British Intelligence is trying to find out who he is. SummerSnow Aug 2014 #51

There seem to be a lot of ISIS sympathizers in the UK. redqueen Aug 2014 #61

I found an interesting article about that in my local paper.. SummerSnow Aug 2014 #65

Yeah I read about that in the Guardian last week. redqueen Aug 2014 #66

Blowback. There were no ISIS supporters before Abu Ghraib, et al. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #117

*CRICKETS* Rex Aug 2014 #135

ok this is dumb qazplm Aug 2014 #149

ISIS came about During Obama's PResidency so maybe it was Obama's fault just like TEabaggers JI7 Aug 2014 #152

Good analogy. randome Aug 2014 #153

And in the Netherlands mwrguy Aug 2014 #119

SCOTUS friends of Poppy installed Bush/Cheney. I blame them. Loudly Aug 2014 #48

... SummerSnow Aug 2014 #50

For once, GW's Iraq folly didn't create this horror Jeevessie Aug 2014 #52

Had bush never invaded, there would be no ISIS. Foley would be alive. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #179

Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #189

I LOVE how the usual suspects squealed in anger that you called it right! Rex Aug 2014 #62

Kindly name the DUer you think is defending Bush? nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #67

The first poster...that is all they've done this entire thread. nt Rex Aug 2014 #68

Randome is defending Bush? nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #70

Are you blind? nt Rex Aug 2014 #71

LOL, ask your doctor if reading comprehension is right for you! FSogol Aug 2014 #74

Yeah totally predictable coming from you. Rex Aug 2014 #78

Laughing at you must mean I support Bush! FSogol Aug 2014 #82

It's okay I understand how uneasy you must feel now. Rex Aug 2014 #83

Uneasy? FSogol Aug 2014 #84

. Rex Aug 2014 #85

Okay, I give up. Here's a free reading comprehension lesson for the posts you misunderstand in this FSogol Aug 2014 #88

You are good at completely missing the point Rex Aug 2014 #89

Bet you had one of these as a kid FSogol Aug 2014 #150

Are you saying that you did not have one as a kid? Rex Aug 2014 #151

Sure sign of losing an argument treestar Aug 2014 #202

No....but if I was, I could still see you missing the point. nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #80

Right...that is what it must be. Rex Aug 2014 #81

Angry? No, my friend, amused at the miserable fail of this OP. nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #140

Nice try, but the only failure is on your part. Rex Aug 2014 #141

!!! Number23 Aug 2014 #154

I imagine "Angry mob" is simply people who may disagree LanternWaste Aug 2014 #75

Thanks, you insights into these things always provide enormous value. Rex Aug 2014 #76

'posters'? Defending Bush? redqueen Aug 2014 #86

Bullshit. Rex Aug 2014 #90

People tend to react negatively to attempts to shift blame. redqueen Aug 2014 #92

Shift blame? Rex Aug 2014 #94

Fucking sad. redqueen Aug 2014 #95

See post #93 Rex Aug 2014 #96

The logic is grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #172

I'll pose the same question I posed to another poster. randome Aug 2014 #118

Why not just admit that the BFEE killing off Saddam led to the rise of ISIS Rex Aug 2014 #123

Sure, we 'let in' some of the monsters. But they were already monsters. randome Aug 2014 #126

Who said anyone was letting ISIS get a freebee over their crimes? Where? Rex Aug 2014 #129

No this is more along the lines of the Israeli/Palestinian wars treestar Aug 2014 #201

Let the money making continue. JEB Aug 2014 #69

NP...just don't blame Bush ultimately for this mess, he seems to have defenders here Rex Aug 2014 #72

One thing in life I will never do is JEB Aug 2014 #156

K&R for pissing off all the right people! Rex Aug 2014 #79

You understand that is extremely childish, right? nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #206

LOL! Rex Aug 2014 #211

Its childish. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #212

Aww boo hoo... Rex Aug 2014 #214

Aw boo hoo is exactly what a childish person would say. Keep proving my point. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #217

Like you actually have a point. Rex Aug 2014 #218

The point is that your post was childish. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #220

Yes you keep saying that over and over...do you actually Rex Aug 2014 #223

Bush, enough blame, but not as much as fadedrose Aug 2014 #87

both groups are evil samsingh Aug 2014 #104

"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." - Buddha grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #107

but it must be intelligently applied. samsingh Aug 2014 #215

The weakness in our case, is considering our torturers "patriots", and refusing to prosecute. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #224

that is absolutely true - the bush junta should be prosecuted and likely find themselves in prison samsingh Aug 2014 #227

Why do you believe the invasion was illegal? ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #106

International law. Rex Aug 2014 #108

Are you talking about the UN? ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #109

Yes the UN. Rex Aug 2014 #110

Didn't many members of the UN support the invasion? ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #111

Not many, that is why it was called the Coalition of the Willing. Rex Aug 2014 #112

Aha! I remember that. ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #113

NP. I like talking about history. Rex Aug 2014 #120

* RandiFan1290 Aug 2014 #115

Yes we knew the rest of the council would never agree. Rex Aug 2014 #122

Didn't Colin Powell lie to the UN? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #175

It was illegal because the stated reasons for the war were all fabricated. chrisa Aug 2014 #162

Congress was lied to. This is an illegal war of aggression under US treaty obligations. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #168

ISIS, ISIL, IS... reared up ProdigalJunkMail Aug 2014 #131

Except they came from Syria, not Iraq? EX500rider Aug 2014 #160

They came from the rebels we funded in Syria, who came from the Sunnis we paid off in Iraq. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #170

i would say that a lot of it is not so much WHERE they came FROM ProdigalJunkMail Aug 2014 #192

Reminds me of our original invasion! grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #226

Why not take it back even further--to the Crusades? frazzled Aug 2014 #132

Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #186

this is like blaming the war in Iraq on Al Qaeda because of 9/11 JI7 Aug 2014 #133

K&R, I absolutely agree with you CrawlingChaos Aug 2014 #139

Thanks! This is all part if the neo-con vision of the world unfolding. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #178

Tell them to take it up with the Saudis Boom Sound 416 Aug 2014 #143

Religious extremism etherealtruth Aug 2014 #146

Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #187

actually if Saddam was still in power they would probably be one of his people JI7 Aug 2014 #157

So that the people who watch the video would be scared. Iggo Aug 2014 #193

because they are garbage. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to what these assholes have still_one Aug 2014 #203

They've been doing what Osama told us they would do to us - Bankrupting our country, grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #246

We are not being bankrupted by these criminals still_one Aug 2014 #255

BS - don't you remember all the deficit battles? This war has caost us 3-6 trillion. Who will pay grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #256

This doesn't need an invasion or a war. Air support and advisors for those countries infested with still_one Aug 2014 #260

How bout we start with Lindsay Graham, John Mcain, and prince Bandar.... Who funded these guys to grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #262

You do realize most beheaded murdered are Muslim... maced666 Aug 2014 #208

No sympathies, just solutions- obviously our projection of more violence into the region has left us grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #247

There is no excusing ISIS and no indication they would not be radicalized without US actions stevenleser Aug 2014 #209

there is clear PROOF that our violence has caused the Iraq situation to deteriorate. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #248

Iraq<>ISIS. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #264

he did not "get his head cut off". ISIL scum murdered him. 0rganism Aug 2014 #225

I can agree with that. But for Bush's war, Foley would be alive. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #249

If it looks like bullshit...and smells like bullshit it must be this op. nt clarice Aug 2014 #228

Can we both agree that James Foley would not have been killed by ISIS, had Bush not lied our country grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #230

I'm sorry my friend...I can't agree on either point..... clarice Aug 2014 #235

Ours (by torturing and bombing women and children and conducting wars of agression), or theirs? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #240

Comparing our civilization to theirs is unthinkable. nt clarice Aug 2014 #241

Do we torture people? Yes or no. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #250

This is the type of discussion black and white thinking leads to. nt. NCTraveler Aug 2014 #231

I disagree, it's the type of discussion that holds people accountable for their actions, be it war grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #232

I had no clue I call my own torturers "patriots". NCTraveler Aug 2014 #233

The President called them patriots: grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #242

"How can we condemn ISIS for brutality when we call our own torturers "patriots"?" NCTraveler Aug 2014 #244

Now, perhaps I can get you folks to understand that violence will not quell the confilct in the ME.. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #252

Your premise is correct brentspeak Aug 2014 #234

ISIS is responsible for killing the journalist. We're responsible for creating a power vacuum where LittleBlue Aug 2014 #237

We can prosecute the criminals that got us into this mess, no? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #243

If I had my way LittleBlue Aug 2014 #245

While those who chose to invade Iraq were war criminals; and this mess would probably not have LeftishBrit Aug 2014 #251

Of course they do, but if you want a solution to the problem, we need to clean house here, grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #253