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Chan790

(20,176 posts)
194. That's a badly-flawed "what-if chain" argument.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 09:00 AM
Aug 2014

If I'd gotten up at 8:57am yesterday rather than 9am, I'd have been traveling to work 3 minutes earlier and would have arrived to work earlier. Since I'm self-employed and only work until the day's work is done, I'd have finished 3 minutes earlier. I'd have arrived at the doctor's office three minutes earlier and she'd have finished my physical 3 minutes earlier, meaning she would have taken her lunch 3 minutes earlier which would have put her in line at the convenience store when the man choked to death rather than walking into the store 2 minutes after he choked to death. Why did I kill that man!?

I hope you see that event-chain is as nebulous and tenuous as the blame you wish to assert. Blaming Bush for Foley's death is ridiculous on a level like blaming butterflies for hurricanes and tsunamis. I may hate the guy, but I don't blame him for unforeseeable events of past actions...to do so is absurd. When the consequences you're trying to shift blame on are the death of a human being...it's deeply offensive.

One person and only one person bears responsibility for James Foley's death. The asshole who cut off his head.

Likewise, the only people responsible for the Iraqi genocide is IS. They did not need Bush...this is not the new issue you're ascribing it to be. Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq have been having this fight consistently and with only brief pauses since before the Crusades. IS didn't need GWB or American Imperialism as an excuse for anything they have done. Despite your desires to assert otherwise, George Walker Bush was not a factor in the death of James Foley nor does he share in the blame. You might as well blame Gavrilo Princip instead...the entire military history of the world and the region since 1914 ultimately all ties back to him shooting Archduke Ferdinand and Princess Sophie.

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Bullshit. randome Aug 2014 #1
Exactly. PragmaticLiberal Aug 2014 #3
And why did those inhuman monsters come into being? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #7
I know where you're going and you're right. PragmaticLiberal Aug 2014 #9
I don't understand why or who you're arguing with sammythecat Aug 2014 #136
What is really special is that it is repeated in this thread by 4 or 5 people. Rex Aug 2014 #138
I'm not arguing with anyone. PragmaticLiberal Aug 2014 #145
Ok, I get what you're saying sammythecat Aug 2014 #159
Agree! Bush and his cohorts destroyed a country for no reason, and Bush and his cohorts do RKP5637 Aug 2014 #180
Every action and non-action we take, or don't take, affects others. randome Aug 2014 #11
I see it as the root cause of the horror, just like Vietnam was the root cause of the Khmer Rouge. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #14
It's a zero-sum argument. What are you going to do? Kill Bush, Junior? randome Aug 2014 #25
You mean Saudi Arabia? "You can't win it" - GWB grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #29
If there was a foreign policy I would be 100% behind, it would be to stand up more for human rights. randome Aug 2014 #36
Point of agreement. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #114
I can see that point. randome Aug 2014 #124
The argument I'm making is that we are the problem in the ME, not the solution. Backed by grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #176
The reality is... Chan790 Aug 2014 #195
Good post. 840high Aug 2014 #155
No not kill GWB, but IMPEACH HIM. napi21 Aug 2014 #254
Excellent analogy. nt gateley Aug 2014 #182
Saddam Hussein kept the monsters in check magical thyme Aug 2014 #259
If the white people in Ferguson won't accept their fellow African-American citizens malaise Aug 2014 #38
I dislike this argument... Chan790 Aug 2014 #99
Had Bush not invaded, James foley would be alive. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #183
That's a badly-flawed "what-if chain" argument. Chan790 Aug 2014 #194
They came out of Syria BainsBane Aug 2014 #130
I read that they originated in Iraq. Al Baghdadi was held prisoner TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #163
They came out of Al Qaeda in Iraq BainsBane Aug 2014 #166
We all have a choice about becoming inhuman monsters treestar Aug 2014 #198
come into being? They were always there. They are killing Muslims and minorities. still_one Aug 2014 #204
Really? And where was ISIS before we invaded Iraq? - Non-existent. Cause and effect. Don't chase the grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #5
The only thing to chase is ISIS. randome Aug 2014 #13
For how long? What is the mission? Chasing? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #19
How could anyone answer the question 'How long'? randome Aug 2014 #31
I know another group that's getting a lot of media attention for their zeal for killing notadmblnd Aug 2014 #181
Yet, peple in our own country torture with impunity, should we not prosecute those at home who grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #238
ISIL and ISIS exist because of good intentions. AngryAmish Aug 2014 #125
very interesting perspective on the situation. dionysus Aug 2014 #188
Indeed. In_The_Wind Aug 2014 #6
This. conservaphobe Aug 2014 #40
You could go even further back and say Barbara Bush is responsible for Iraq. randome Aug 2014 #46
I absolutely agree. nt conservaphobe Aug 2014 #47
good memory - she caused a lot of the evil after forcing her sons to steal the presidency i think samsingh Aug 2014 #105
Your method of violence has provided what solution in the Middle East? You've cost us grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #121
Not my method. I was against the Iraq War. conservaphobe Aug 2014 #142
It's a trap. A perpetration of the neo-con vision. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #184
yes ISIS qazplm Aug 2014 #147
Saudi Arabia and Iran can take care of ISIS, might be good for them. We need to take care of our own grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #185
LOL! Rex Aug 2014 #57
George Bush didn't invade Iraq? Octafish Aug 2014 #73
It's NOT that...it is that you are supposed to have moved on already. Rex Aug 2014 #177
Real Road Scholars. Octafish Aug 2014 #196
"road scholars"? redqueen Aug 2014 #197
Sorry, redqueen. It is a Terrible Pun. Octafish Aug 2014 #221
Aha redqueen Aug 2014 #222
Oh duh there is a link...lol Rex Aug 2014 #200
What does a lecture on a dark matter detector in 2009 have to do with techniques used redqueen Aug 2014 #207
Sigh Rex Aug 2014 #210
I asked a question and commented on the thread. redqueen Aug 2014 #213
Ya why would I answer insults with insults...strange of me right? Rex Aug 2014 #216
This message was self-deleted by its author Octafish Aug 2014 #229
precisely samsingh Aug 2014 #103
Yes, pure fucking evil... like the fuckers that dropped a-bombs on civilian populations in ww2 whatchamacallit Aug 2014 #137
Agree 100% blueamy66 Aug 2014 #148
Saddam killed all of the religious extremists in his country. ISIS would not exist if he were still chrisa Aug 2014 #161
Just like the Afghan mujahedeen that the US cheerfully supported in the 80s eridani Aug 2014 #191
ProAmnesia bobduca Aug 2014 #219
Do you really believe that the people in the Middle East malaise Aug 2014 #263
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Aug 2014 #2
unbelievable Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #4
Retaliation for US airstrikes on ISIS... HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #8
Can't argue these facts gratuitous Aug 2014 #10
And that explains why they kidnap women and girls and kill so many non-Americans. randome Aug 2014 #18
Thank you. redqueen Aug 2014 #22
I think Satan just told Hitler to fire up the Zamboni...you and I msanthrope Aug 2014 #49
LMAO!! Behind the Aegis Aug 2014 #91
+1 theHandpuppet Aug 2014 #54
Agree leftynyc Aug 2014 #64
+1, blaming the United States for everything is ChazII Aug 2014 #128
That's nice to know leftynyc Aug 2014 #144
Once more, agree 100% ChazII Aug 2014 #165
It's bizarre. Even if you stipulate that yes, there would be no ISIS if not for those wars, redqueen Aug 2014 #134
ISIS appears to be taking revenge on those they can reach gratuitous Aug 2014 #24
Were they thinking of revenge when they kidnapped school children? randome Aug 2014 #37
Me? No, I couldn't behead a stranger gratuitous Aug 2014 #53
I couldn't behead anyone, either. randome Aug 2014 #55
Then I suggest you enlist, or apply for a job with a mercenary outfit gratuitous Aug 2014 #60
Letting people die when we could prevent it won't drive out this violence, either. randome Aug 2014 #100
ding ding ding, a winner still_one Aug 2014 #205
So why is ISIS killing leftynyc Aug 2014 #21
Hanh? gratuitous Aug 2014 #27
So these animals are responsible for nothing? leftynyc Aug 2014 #58
Zero credibility? How can you say that when the use of military force has been proven time and grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #169
When the far left leftynyc Aug 2014 #190
Not my part of the democratic socialist center of the country! The use of force in the ME is an grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #257
So you were okay leftynyc Aug 2014 #261
Nonsense. Military force is often effective in hughee99 Aug 2014 #239
So let's spend another trillion and see what happens? how bout we leave and fix our home. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #258
so that's why the British ISIS member is killing innocent people in Syria, Iraq etc ? JI7 Aug 2014 #42
Republicans would argue against those facts... Rex Aug 2014 #59
No. ISIS executioners are the direct and proximate cause of his death. redqueen Aug 2014 #12
Agreed, what led to ISIS? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #20
Being taught at a young age that a sky daddy wants them to rape, plunder and pillage seveneyes Aug 2014 #30
*CRICKETS* Rex Aug 2014 #93
I don't argue with creationists either. redqueen Aug 2014 #97
You mean you run off in defeat. Rex Aug 2014 #98
LOL, 'defeat'... fucking hell. redqueen Aug 2014 #101
Bye then. Rex Aug 2014 #102
The Sunni - Shia schism back in 632 FrodosPet Aug 2014 #158
You're right, of course, the conflict goes back 1400 years so WTF are we doing there, grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #167
Hmmm...I did not know I was saying that FrodosPet Aug 2014 #171
They were killing eachother a lot less before we arrived. We are the abusive husband of the middle grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #173
It's a lot more complex than just saying it was Bush's war treestar Aug 2014 #199
So who do you blame for leftynyc Aug 2014 #15
Again, blowback for our middle east meddling. Goes back supporting Osama in Afganistan. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #26
So is the US is responsible leftynyc Aug 2014 #56
They've been doing it for 1400 years, but they weren't doing it to us. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #77
There is no excuse for ISIL murdering people seveneyes Aug 2014 #16
Or torture.... not even "patriotism" grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #23
WOOT! Blame America first! FSogol Aug 2014 #17
The terrorist we helped to overthrow Assad in Syria. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #32
So Assad is no longer in power? And we somehow become responsible for every civil war? FSogol Aug 2014 #41
what ?? you do know Assad has not been overthrown ? and just recent reporting was about JI7 Aug 2014 #45
Maybe if Assad had stepped down moondust Aug 2014 #174
But it is our fault. We removed Saddam Hussein, which allowed fundamentalism to flourish in Iraq. chrisa Aug 2014 #164
Did you forget that we removed the one guy brentspeak Aug 2014 #236
Much easier to act like a child and post Rex Aug 2014 #265
bagdadi was a nobody untill we arrested him and held him for 6 years leftyohiolib Aug 2014 #28
This is the next generation we were warned about. RandiFan1290 Aug 2014 #33
Fuck that. B2G Aug 2014 #34
And f#ck torturers too, right? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #35
I'm not following you. Maedhros Aug 2014 #44
YEP. Rex Aug 2014 #63
ISIS is to blame, this is like wingnuts blaming illegal immigrants who murder JI7 Aug 2014 #39
Where did ISIS come from? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #116
they come from all over , the guy who killed the reporter was likely a Brit. JI7 Aug 2014 #127
didn't the guy who killed him have a British Accent ? JI7 Aug 2014 #43
Yes, and the British Intelligence is trying to find out who he is. SummerSnow Aug 2014 #51
There seem to be a lot of ISIS sympathizers in the UK. redqueen Aug 2014 #61
I found an interesting article about that in my local paper.. SummerSnow Aug 2014 #65
Yeah I read about that in the Guardian last week. redqueen Aug 2014 #66
Blowback. There were no ISIS supporters before Abu Ghraib, et al. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #117
*CRICKETS* Rex Aug 2014 #135
ok this is dumb qazplm Aug 2014 #149
ISIS came about During Obama's PResidency so maybe it was Obama's fault just like TEabaggers JI7 Aug 2014 #152
Good analogy. randome Aug 2014 #153
And in the Netherlands mwrguy Aug 2014 #119
SCOTUS friends of Poppy installed Bush/Cheney. I blame them. Loudly Aug 2014 #48
... SummerSnow Aug 2014 #50
For once, GW's Iraq folly didn't create this horror Jeevessie Aug 2014 #52
Had bush never invaded, there would be no ISIS. Foley would be alive. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #179
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #189
I LOVE how the usual suspects squealed in anger that you called it right! Rex Aug 2014 #62
Kindly name the DUer you think is defending Bush? nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #67
The first poster...that is all they've done this entire thread. nt Rex Aug 2014 #68
Randome is defending Bush? nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #70
Are you blind? nt Rex Aug 2014 #71
LOL, ask your doctor if reading comprehension is right for you! FSogol Aug 2014 #74
Yeah totally predictable coming from you. Rex Aug 2014 #78
Laughing at you must mean I support Bush! FSogol Aug 2014 #82
It's okay I understand how uneasy you must feel now. Rex Aug 2014 #83
Uneasy? FSogol Aug 2014 #84
. Rex Aug 2014 #85
Okay, I give up. Here's a free reading comprehension lesson for the posts you misunderstand in this FSogol Aug 2014 #88
You are good at completely missing the point Rex Aug 2014 #89
Bet you had one of these as a kid FSogol Aug 2014 #150
Are you saying that you did not have one as a kid? Rex Aug 2014 #151
Sure sign of losing an argument treestar Aug 2014 #202
No....but if I was, I could still see you missing the point. nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #80
Right...that is what it must be. Rex Aug 2014 #81
Angry? No, my friend, amused at the miserable fail of this OP. nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #140
Nice try, but the only failure is on your part. Rex Aug 2014 #141
!!! Number23 Aug 2014 #154
I imagine "Angry mob" is simply people who may disagree LanternWaste Aug 2014 #75
Thanks, you insights into these things always provide enormous value. Rex Aug 2014 #76
'posters'? Defending Bush? redqueen Aug 2014 #86
Bullshit. Rex Aug 2014 #90
People tend to react negatively to attempts to shift blame. redqueen Aug 2014 #92
Shift blame? Rex Aug 2014 #94
Fucking sad. redqueen Aug 2014 #95
See post #93 Rex Aug 2014 #96
The logic is grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #172
I'll pose the same question I posed to another poster. randome Aug 2014 #118
Why not just admit that the BFEE killing off Saddam led to the rise of ISIS Rex Aug 2014 #123
Sure, we 'let in' some of the monsters. But they were already monsters. randome Aug 2014 #126
Who said anyone was letting ISIS get a freebee over their crimes? Where? Rex Aug 2014 #129
No this is more along the lines of the Israeli/Palestinian wars treestar Aug 2014 #201
Let the money making continue. JEB Aug 2014 #69
NP...just don't blame Bush ultimately for this mess, he seems to have defenders here Rex Aug 2014 #72
One thing in life I will never do is JEB Aug 2014 #156
K&R for pissing off all the right people! Rex Aug 2014 #79
You understand that is extremely childish, right? nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #206
LOL! Rex Aug 2014 #211
Its childish. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #212
Aww boo hoo... Rex Aug 2014 #214
Aw boo hoo is exactly what a childish person would say. Keep proving my point. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #217
Like you actually have a point. Rex Aug 2014 #218
The point is that your post was childish. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #220
Yes you keep saying that over and over...do you actually Rex Aug 2014 #223
Bush, enough blame, but not as much as fadedrose Aug 2014 #87
both groups are evil samsingh Aug 2014 #104
"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." - Buddha grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #107
but it must be intelligently applied. samsingh Aug 2014 #215
The weakness in our case, is considering our torturers "patriots", and refusing to prosecute. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #224
that is absolutely true - the bush junta should be prosecuted and likely find themselves in prison samsingh Aug 2014 #227
Why do you believe the invasion was illegal? ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #106
International law. Rex Aug 2014 #108
Are you talking about the UN? ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #109
Yes the UN. Rex Aug 2014 #110
Didn't many members of the UN support the invasion? ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #111
Not many, that is why it was called the Coalition of the Willing. Rex Aug 2014 #112
Aha! I remember that. ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #113
NP. I like talking about history. Rex Aug 2014 #120
* RandiFan1290 Aug 2014 #115
Yes we knew the rest of the council would never agree. Rex Aug 2014 #122
Didn't Colin Powell lie to the UN? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #175
It was illegal because the stated reasons for the war were all fabricated. chrisa Aug 2014 #162
Congress was lied to. This is an illegal war of aggression under US treaty obligations. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #168
ISIS, ISIL, IS... reared up ProdigalJunkMail Aug 2014 #131
Except they came from Syria, not Iraq? EX500rider Aug 2014 #160
They came from the rebels we funded in Syria, who came from the Sunnis we paid off in Iraq. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #170
i would say that a lot of it is not so much WHERE they came FROM ProdigalJunkMail Aug 2014 #192
Reminds me of our original invasion! grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #226
Why not take it back even further--to the Crusades? frazzled Aug 2014 #132
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #186
this is like blaming the war in Iraq on Al Qaeda because of 9/11 JI7 Aug 2014 #133
K&R, I absolutely agree with you CrawlingChaos Aug 2014 #139
Thanks! This is all part if the neo-con vision of the world unfolding. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #178
Tell them to take it up with the Saudis Boom Sound 416 Aug 2014 #143
Religious extremism etherealtruth Aug 2014 #146
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #187
actually if Saddam was still in power they would probably be one of his people JI7 Aug 2014 #157
So that the people who watch the video would be scared. Iggo Aug 2014 #193
because they are garbage. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to what these assholes have still_one Aug 2014 #203
They've been doing what Osama told us they would do to us - Bankrupting our country, grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #246
We are not being bankrupted by these criminals still_one Aug 2014 #255
BS - don't you remember all the deficit battles? This war has caost us 3-6 trillion. Who will pay grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #256
This doesn't need an invasion or a war. Air support and advisors for those countries infested with still_one Aug 2014 #260
How bout we start with Lindsay Graham, John Mcain, and prince Bandar.... Who funded these guys to grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #262
You do realize most beheaded murdered are Muslim... maced666 Aug 2014 #208
No sympathies, just solutions- obviously our projection of more violence into the region has left us grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #247
There is no excusing ISIS and no indication they would not be radicalized without US actions stevenleser Aug 2014 #209
there is clear PROOF that our violence has caused the Iraq situation to deteriorate. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #248
Iraq<>ISIS. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #264
he did not "get his head cut off". ISIL scum murdered him. 0rganism Aug 2014 #225
I can agree with that. But for Bush's war, Foley would be alive. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #249
If it looks like bullshit...and smells like bullshit it must be this op. nt clarice Aug 2014 #228
Can we both agree that James Foley would not have been killed by ISIS, had Bush not lied our country grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #230
I'm sorry my friend...I can't agree on either point..... clarice Aug 2014 #235
Ours (by torturing and bombing women and children and conducting wars of agression), or theirs? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #240
Comparing our civilization to theirs is unthinkable. nt clarice Aug 2014 #241
Do we torture people? Yes or no. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #250
This is the type of discussion black and white thinking leads to. nt. NCTraveler Aug 2014 #231
I disagree, it's the type of discussion that holds people accountable for their actions, be it war grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #232
I had no clue I call my own torturers "patriots". NCTraveler Aug 2014 #233
The President called them patriots: grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #242
"How can we condemn ISIS for brutality when we call our own torturers "patriots"?" NCTraveler Aug 2014 #244
Now, perhaps I can get you folks to understand that violence will not quell the confilct in the ME.. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #252
Your premise is correct brentspeak Aug 2014 #234
ISIS is responsible for killing the journalist. We're responsible for creating a power vacuum where LittleBlue Aug 2014 #237
We can prosecute the criminals that got us into this mess, no? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #243
If I had my way LittleBlue Aug 2014 #245
While those who chose to invade Iraq were war criminals; and this mess would probably not have LeftishBrit Aug 2014 #251
Of course they do, but if you want a solution to the problem, we need to clean house here, grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #253
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