General Discussion

Chan790

(20,176 posts)

195. The reality is...

Thu Aug 21, 2014, 09:29 AM

Aug 2014

much to the chagrin of the anti-war left...we're not much of a factor in the region on either side of that equation.

Only they can fix their own crap, meaning we're not part of the solution. Despite the assertions of you and others, we're not part of the problem either...not unless the US is responsible for Battle of Siffin in 657CE and the Battle of Karbala in 680CE.

It has nothing to do with us...the eternal fitna needs no subsequent cause or excuse; it's been going on with only the briefest of pauses for nearly 1400 years. Dylan Thomas wrote "After the first death, there is no other."...it's still all about Ali. (Really, your cause would be helped immediately if you had some notion of the history of the region.) Also, abandon your Americentrism...lots of things that go on in the world where they have an impact on us or compel the US to act...have f**k-all to do with America or America's past acts--even when the actors claim they do.

We can however lean on the global community for referee the conflict in order to protect innocents and civilians...and by some lines-of-thought have a moral and humanitarian obligation to do so if nobody else will.

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Q: Why Did an American Journalist Get His Head Cut Off? [View all] grahamhgreen Aug 2014 OP

Bullshit. randome Aug 2014 #1

Exactly. PragmaticLiberal Aug 2014 #3

And why did those inhuman monsters come into being? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #7

I know where you're going and you're right. PragmaticLiberal Aug 2014 #9

I don't understand why or who you're arguing with sammythecat Aug 2014 #136

What is really special is that it is repeated in this thread by 4 or 5 people. Rex Aug 2014 #138

I'm not arguing with anyone. PragmaticLiberal Aug 2014 #145

Ok, I get what you're saying sammythecat Aug 2014 #159

Agree! Bush and his cohorts destroyed a country for no reason, and Bush and his cohorts do RKP5637 Aug 2014 #180

Every action and non-action we take, or don't take, affects others. randome Aug 2014 #11

I see it as the root cause of the horror, just like Vietnam was the root cause of the Khmer Rouge. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #14

It's a zero-sum argument. What are you going to do? Kill Bush, Junior? randome Aug 2014 #25

You mean Saudi Arabia? "You can't win it" - GWB grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #29

If there was a foreign policy I would be 100% behind, it would be to stand up more for human rights. randome Aug 2014 #36

Point of agreement. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #114

I can see that point. randome Aug 2014 #124

The argument I'm making is that we are the problem in the ME, not the solution. Backed by grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #176

The reality is... Chan790 Aug 2014 #195

Good post. 840high Aug 2014 #155

No not kill GWB, but IMPEACH HIM. napi21 Aug 2014 #254

Excellent analogy. nt gateley Aug 2014 #182

Saddam Hussein kept the monsters in check magical thyme Aug 2014 #259

If the white people in Ferguson won't accept their fellow African-American citizens malaise Aug 2014 #38

I dislike this argument... Chan790 Aug 2014 #99

Had Bush not invaded, James foley would be alive. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #183

That's a badly-flawed "what-if chain" argument. Chan790 Aug 2014 #194

They came out of Syria BainsBane Aug 2014 #130

I read that they originated in Iraq. Al Baghdadi was held prisoner TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #163

They came out of Al Qaeda in Iraq BainsBane Aug 2014 #166

We all have a choice about becoming inhuman monsters treestar Aug 2014 #198

come into being? They were always there. They are killing Muslims and minorities. still_one Aug 2014 #204

Really? And where was ISIS before we invaded Iraq? - Non-existent. Cause and effect. Don't chase the grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #5

The only thing to chase is ISIS. randome Aug 2014 #13

For how long? What is the mission? Chasing? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #19

How could anyone answer the question 'How long'? randome Aug 2014 #31

I know another group that's getting a lot of media attention for their zeal for killing notadmblnd Aug 2014 #181

Yet, peple in our own country torture with impunity, should we not prosecute those at home who grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #238

ISIL and ISIS exist because of good intentions. AngryAmish Aug 2014 #125

very interesting perspective on the situation. dionysus Aug 2014 #188

Indeed. In_The_Wind Aug 2014 #6

This. conservaphobe Aug 2014 #40

You could go even further back and say Barbara Bush is responsible for Iraq. randome Aug 2014 #46

I absolutely agree. nt conservaphobe Aug 2014 #47

good memory - she caused a lot of the evil after forcing her sons to steal the presidency i think samsingh Aug 2014 #105

Your method of violence has provided what solution in the Middle East? You've cost us grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #121

Not my method. I was against the Iraq War. conservaphobe Aug 2014 #142

It's a trap. A perpetration of the neo-con vision. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #184

yes ISIS qazplm Aug 2014 #147

Saudi Arabia and Iran can take care of ISIS, might be good for them. We need to take care of our own grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #185

LOL! Rex Aug 2014 #57

George Bush didn't invade Iraq? Octafish Aug 2014 #73

It's NOT that...it is that you are supposed to have moved on already. Rex Aug 2014 #177

Real Road Scholars. Octafish Aug 2014 #196

"road scholars"? redqueen Aug 2014 #197

Sorry, redqueen. It is a Terrible Pun. Octafish Aug 2014 #221

Aha redqueen Aug 2014 #222

Oh duh there is a link...lol Rex Aug 2014 #200

What does a lecture on a dark matter detector in 2009 have to do with techniques used redqueen Aug 2014 #207

Sigh Rex Aug 2014 #210

I asked a question and commented on the thread. redqueen Aug 2014 #213

Ya why would I answer insults with insults...strange of me right? Rex Aug 2014 #216

This message was self-deleted by its author Octafish Aug 2014 #229

precisely samsingh Aug 2014 #103

Yes, pure fucking evil... like the fuckers that dropped a-bombs on civilian populations in ww2 whatchamacallit Aug 2014 #137

Agree 100% blueamy66 Aug 2014 #148

Saddam killed all of the religious extremists in his country. ISIS would not exist if he were still chrisa Aug 2014 #161

Just like the Afghan mujahedeen that the US cheerfully supported in the 80s eridani Aug 2014 #191

ProAmnesia bobduca Aug 2014 #219

Do you really believe that the people in the Middle East malaise Aug 2014 #263

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Aug 2014 #2

unbelievable Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #4

Retaliation for US airstrikes on ISIS... HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #8

Can't argue these facts gratuitous Aug 2014 #10

And that explains why they kidnap women and girls and kill so many non-Americans. randome Aug 2014 #18

Thank you. redqueen Aug 2014 #22

I think Satan just told Hitler to fire up the Zamboni...you and I msanthrope Aug 2014 #49

LMAO!! Behind the Aegis Aug 2014 #91

+1 theHandpuppet Aug 2014 #54

Agree leftynyc Aug 2014 #64

+1, blaming the United States for everything is ChazII Aug 2014 #128

That's nice to know leftynyc Aug 2014 #144

Once more, agree 100% ChazII Aug 2014 #165

It's bizarre. Even if you stipulate that yes, there would be no ISIS if not for those wars, redqueen Aug 2014 #134

ISIS appears to be taking revenge on those they can reach gratuitous Aug 2014 #24

Were they thinking of revenge when they kidnapped school children? randome Aug 2014 #37

Me? No, I couldn't behead a stranger gratuitous Aug 2014 #53

I couldn't behead anyone, either. randome Aug 2014 #55

Then I suggest you enlist, or apply for a job with a mercenary outfit gratuitous Aug 2014 #60

Letting people die when we could prevent it won't drive out this violence, either. randome Aug 2014 #100

ding ding ding, a winner still_one Aug 2014 #205

So why is ISIS killing leftynyc Aug 2014 #21

Hanh? gratuitous Aug 2014 #27

So these animals are responsible for nothing? leftynyc Aug 2014 #58

Zero credibility? How can you say that when the use of military force has been proven time and grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #169

When the far left leftynyc Aug 2014 #190

Not my part of the democratic socialist center of the country! The use of force in the ME is an grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #257

So you were okay leftynyc Aug 2014 #261

Nonsense. Military force is often effective in hughee99 Aug 2014 #239

So let's spend another trillion and see what happens? how bout we leave and fix our home. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #258

so that's why the British ISIS member is killing innocent people in Syria, Iraq etc ? JI7 Aug 2014 #42

Republicans would argue against those facts... Rex Aug 2014 #59

No. ISIS executioners are the direct and proximate cause of his death. redqueen Aug 2014 #12

Agreed, what led to ISIS? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #20

Being taught at a young age that a sky daddy wants them to rape, plunder and pillage seveneyes Aug 2014 #30

*CRICKETS* Rex Aug 2014 #93

I don't argue with creationists either. redqueen Aug 2014 #97

You mean you run off in defeat. Rex Aug 2014 #98

LOL, 'defeat'... fucking hell. redqueen Aug 2014 #101

Bye then. Rex Aug 2014 #102

The Sunni - Shia schism back in 632 FrodosPet Aug 2014 #158

You're right, of course, the conflict goes back 1400 years so WTF are we doing there, grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #167

Hmmm...I did not know I was saying that FrodosPet Aug 2014 #171

They were killing eachother a lot less before we arrived. We are the abusive husband of the middle grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #173

It's a lot more complex than just saying it was Bush's war treestar Aug 2014 #199

So who do you blame for leftynyc Aug 2014 #15

Again, blowback for our middle east meddling. Goes back supporting Osama in Afganistan. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #26

So is the US is responsible leftynyc Aug 2014 #56

They've been doing it for 1400 years, but they weren't doing it to us. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #77

There is no excuse for ISIL murdering people seveneyes Aug 2014 #16

Or torture.... not even "patriotism" grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #23

WOOT! Blame America first! FSogol Aug 2014 #17

The terrorist we helped to overthrow Assad in Syria. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #32

So Assad is no longer in power? And we somehow become responsible for every civil war? FSogol Aug 2014 #41

what ?? you do know Assad has not been overthrown ? and just recent reporting was about JI7 Aug 2014 #45

Maybe if Assad had stepped down moondust Aug 2014 #174

But it is our fault. We removed Saddam Hussein, which allowed fundamentalism to flourish in Iraq. chrisa Aug 2014 #164

Did you forget that we removed the one guy brentspeak Aug 2014 #236

Much easier to act like a child and post Rex Aug 2014 #265

bagdadi was a nobody untill we arrested him and held him for 6 years leftyohiolib Aug 2014 #28

This is the next generation we were warned about. RandiFan1290 Aug 2014 #33

Fuck that. B2G Aug 2014 #34

And f#ck torturers too, right? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #35

I'm not following you. Maedhros Aug 2014 #44

YEP. Rex Aug 2014 #63

ISIS is to blame, this is like wingnuts blaming illegal immigrants who murder JI7 Aug 2014 #39

Where did ISIS come from? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #116

they come from all over , the guy who killed the reporter was likely a Brit. JI7 Aug 2014 #127

didn't the guy who killed him have a British Accent ? JI7 Aug 2014 #43

Yes, and the British Intelligence is trying to find out who he is. SummerSnow Aug 2014 #51

There seem to be a lot of ISIS sympathizers in the UK. redqueen Aug 2014 #61

I found an interesting article about that in my local paper.. SummerSnow Aug 2014 #65

Yeah I read about that in the Guardian last week. redqueen Aug 2014 #66

Blowback. There were no ISIS supporters before Abu Ghraib, et al. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #117

*CRICKETS* Rex Aug 2014 #135

ok this is dumb qazplm Aug 2014 #149

ISIS came about During Obama's PResidency so maybe it was Obama's fault just like TEabaggers JI7 Aug 2014 #152

Good analogy. randome Aug 2014 #153

And in the Netherlands mwrguy Aug 2014 #119

SCOTUS friends of Poppy installed Bush/Cheney. I blame them. Loudly Aug 2014 #48

... SummerSnow Aug 2014 #50

For once, GW's Iraq folly didn't create this horror Jeevessie Aug 2014 #52

Had bush never invaded, there would be no ISIS. Foley would be alive. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #179

Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #189

I LOVE how the usual suspects squealed in anger that you called it right! Rex Aug 2014 #62

Kindly name the DUer you think is defending Bush? nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #67

The first poster...that is all they've done this entire thread. nt Rex Aug 2014 #68

Randome is defending Bush? nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #70

Are you blind? nt Rex Aug 2014 #71

LOL, ask your doctor if reading comprehension is right for you! FSogol Aug 2014 #74

Yeah totally predictable coming from you. Rex Aug 2014 #78

Laughing at you must mean I support Bush! FSogol Aug 2014 #82

It's okay I understand how uneasy you must feel now. Rex Aug 2014 #83

Uneasy? FSogol Aug 2014 #84

. Rex Aug 2014 #85

Okay, I give up. Here's a free reading comprehension lesson for the posts you misunderstand in this FSogol Aug 2014 #88

You are good at completely missing the point Rex Aug 2014 #89

Bet you had one of these as a kid FSogol Aug 2014 #150

Are you saying that you did not have one as a kid? Rex Aug 2014 #151

Sure sign of losing an argument treestar Aug 2014 #202

No....but if I was, I could still see you missing the point. nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #80

Right...that is what it must be. Rex Aug 2014 #81

Angry? No, my friend, amused at the miserable fail of this OP. nt msanthrope Aug 2014 #140

Nice try, but the only failure is on your part. Rex Aug 2014 #141

!!! Number23 Aug 2014 #154

I imagine "Angry mob" is simply people who may disagree LanternWaste Aug 2014 #75

Thanks, you insights into these things always provide enormous value. Rex Aug 2014 #76

'posters'? Defending Bush? redqueen Aug 2014 #86

Bullshit. Rex Aug 2014 #90

People tend to react negatively to attempts to shift blame. redqueen Aug 2014 #92

Shift blame? Rex Aug 2014 #94

Fucking sad. redqueen Aug 2014 #95

See post #93 Rex Aug 2014 #96

The logic is grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #172

I'll pose the same question I posed to another poster. randome Aug 2014 #118

Why not just admit that the BFEE killing off Saddam led to the rise of ISIS Rex Aug 2014 #123

Sure, we 'let in' some of the monsters. But they were already monsters. randome Aug 2014 #126

Who said anyone was letting ISIS get a freebee over their crimes? Where? Rex Aug 2014 #129

No this is more along the lines of the Israeli/Palestinian wars treestar Aug 2014 #201

Let the money making continue. JEB Aug 2014 #69

NP...just don't blame Bush ultimately for this mess, he seems to have defenders here Rex Aug 2014 #72

One thing in life I will never do is JEB Aug 2014 #156

K&R for pissing off all the right people! Rex Aug 2014 #79

You understand that is extremely childish, right? nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #206

LOL! Rex Aug 2014 #211

Its childish. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #212

Aww boo hoo... Rex Aug 2014 #214

Aw boo hoo is exactly what a childish person would say. Keep proving my point. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #217

Like you actually have a point. Rex Aug 2014 #218

The point is that your post was childish. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #220

Yes you keep saying that over and over...do you actually Rex Aug 2014 #223

Bush, enough blame, but not as much as fadedrose Aug 2014 #87

both groups are evil samsingh Aug 2014 #104

"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." - Buddha grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #107

but it must be intelligently applied. samsingh Aug 2014 #215

The weakness in our case, is considering our torturers "patriots", and refusing to prosecute. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #224

that is absolutely true - the bush junta should be prosecuted and likely find themselves in prison samsingh Aug 2014 #227

Why do you believe the invasion was illegal? ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #106

International law. Rex Aug 2014 #108

Are you talking about the UN? ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #109

Yes the UN. Rex Aug 2014 #110

Didn't many members of the UN support the invasion? ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #111

Not many, that is why it was called the Coalition of the Willing. Rex Aug 2014 #112

Aha! I remember that. ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #113

NP. I like talking about history. Rex Aug 2014 #120

* RandiFan1290 Aug 2014 #115

Yes we knew the rest of the council would never agree. Rex Aug 2014 #122

Didn't Colin Powell lie to the UN? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #175

It was illegal because the stated reasons for the war were all fabricated. chrisa Aug 2014 #162

Congress was lied to. This is an illegal war of aggression under US treaty obligations. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #168

ISIS, ISIL, IS... reared up ProdigalJunkMail Aug 2014 #131

Except they came from Syria, not Iraq? EX500rider Aug 2014 #160

They came from the rebels we funded in Syria, who came from the Sunnis we paid off in Iraq. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #170

i would say that a lot of it is not so much WHERE they came FROM ProdigalJunkMail Aug 2014 #192

Reminds me of our original invasion! grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #226

Why not take it back even further--to the Crusades? frazzled Aug 2014 #132

Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #186

this is like blaming the war in Iraq on Al Qaeda because of 9/11 JI7 Aug 2014 #133

K&R, I absolutely agree with you CrawlingChaos Aug 2014 #139

Thanks! This is all part if the neo-con vision of the world unfolding. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #178

Tell them to take it up with the Saudis Boom Sound 416 Aug 2014 #143

Religious extremism etherealtruth Aug 2014 #146

Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #187

actually if Saddam was still in power they would probably be one of his people JI7 Aug 2014 #157

So that the people who watch the video would be scared. Iggo Aug 2014 #193

because they are garbage. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to what these assholes have still_one Aug 2014 #203

They've been doing what Osama told us they would do to us - Bankrupting our country, grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #246

We are not being bankrupted by these criminals still_one Aug 2014 #255

BS - don't you remember all the deficit battles? This war has caost us 3-6 trillion. Who will pay grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #256

This doesn't need an invasion or a war. Air support and advisors for those countries infested with still_one Aug 2014 #260

How bout we start with Lindsay Graham, John Mcain, and prince Bandar.... Who funded these guys to grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #262

You do realize most beheaded murdered are Muslim... maced666 Aug 2014 #208

No sympathies, just solutions- obviously our projection of more violence into the region has left us grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #247

There is no excusing ISIS and no indication they would not be radicalized without US actions stevenleser Aug 2014 #209

there is clear PROOF that our violence has caused the Iraq situation to deteriorate. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #248

Iraq<>ISIS. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #264

he did not "get his head cut off". ISIL scum murdered him. 0rganism Aug 2014 #225

I can agree with that. But for Bush's war, Foley would be alive. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #249

If it looks like bullshit...and smells like bullshit it must be this op. nt clarice Aug 2014 #228

Can we both agree that James Foley would not have been killed by ISIS, had Bush not lied our country grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #230

I'm sorry my friend...I can't agree on either point..... clarice Aug 2014 #235

Ours (by torturing and bombing women and children and conducting wars of agression), or theirs? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #240

Comparing our civilization to theirs is unthinkable. nt clarice Aug 2014 #241

Do we torture people? Yes or no. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #250

This is the type of discussion black and white thinking leads to. nt. NCTraveler Aug 2014 #231

I disagree, it's the type of discussion that holds people accountable for their actions, be it war grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #232

I had no clue I call my own torturers "patriots". NCTraveler Aug 2014 #233

The President called them patriots: grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #242

"How can we condemn ISIS for brutality when we call our own torturers "patriots"?" NCTraveler Aug 2014 #244

Now, perhaps I can get you folks to understand that violence will not quell the confilct in the ME.. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #252

Your premise is correct brentspeak Aug 2014 #234

ISIS is responsible for killing the journalist. We're responsible for creating a power vacuum where LittleBlue Aug 2014 #237

We can prosecute the criminals that got us into this mess, no? grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #243

If I had my way LittleBlue Aug 2014 #245

While those who chose to invade Iraq were war criminals; and this mess would probably not have LeftishBrit Aug 2014 #251

Of course they do, but if you want a solution to the problem, we need to clean house here, grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #253