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Dems to Win

(2,161 posts)

95. I'm still hoping there is a serious challenge to 'inevitable' Hillary

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:52 AM

Aug 2014

I've got my lantern out, looking for a progressive politician under age 60 to present an alternative choice.

If Hillary is seriously challenged and wins the primary fair and square, I will grudgingly vote for her in the general election.

If the Clinton machine succeeds in intimidating all potential challengers, as described in this Atlantic article, so that she sweeps to the nomination unopposed, I will likely leave that ballot line blank.

Clintonphobia: Why No Democrat Wants to Run Against Hillary
Strong frontrunners have drawn challengers before. But given the Clintons' reputation for retaliating for betrayals, it's just not worth it in 2016.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/08/why-no-democrat-wants-to-run-against-hillary-fear-of-retaliation/378914/

My objection to Hillary 2016 is the exact same objection I had in 2008: Her vote in favor of the Iraq War Resolution. She was either duped by George Bush, or she really believed a US War on Iraq was the right decision for our country. Either way, she is not a person I want as president.

What do we want? A competitive primary!

When do we want it? 2016!

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The inevitable Hillary will lead to President Rand Paul. [View all] Savannahmann Aug 2014 OP

Rand Paul, Sir, Will Not Even Get The Republican Nomination, Let Alone Win The General Election The Magistrate Aug 2014 #1

indeed. Has this utter disdain for HRC blinded some on DU to electoral reality? wyldwolf Aug 2014 #33

Yeah shenmue Aug 2014 #73

The MSM liberalmike27 Aug 2014 #76

And some have sacrificed their principles to back a presumed winner. rhett o rick Aug 2014 #115

I'm thinking: Maybe "principles" were never real enough to sacrifice to begin with... 2banon Aug 2014 #164

What get me is the sure audacity of thumbing noses at the plight of the lower classes rhett o rick Aug 2014 #185

He still has not taken his running shoes off when confronted with the question.. busterbrown Aug 2014 #94

None of Rand Paul's stands will prevent him from winning the Republican JDPriestly Aug 2014 #121

Paul will collapse under national scrutiny, as did Bachmann, Palin, etc etc. emulatorloo Aug 2014 #133

I haved constantly disagreed with "Jeb has no chance." RoverSuswade Aug 2014 #135

All your points are well thought out and I agree.. busterbrown Aug 2014 #158

You are right about Rand Paul in this regard (as well as with regard to other things): JDPriestly Aug 2014 #175

We are in agreement practically about everything... busterbrown Aug 2014 #195

Yes, they will (re: Rand Paul stances preventing him from winning the GOP nomination) stevenleser Aug 2014 #173

And Hillary's nomination could rip our party in two, if not in 2016, in 2020. JDPriestly Aug 2014 #184

Nope, it won't. No data suggests such a thing. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #189

Great point. A H. Clinton-Sachs win will solidify the Conservative takeover of our Party. rhett o rick Aug 2014 #190

+1 woo me with science Aug 2014 #252

That's what they said about the 2008 primary. joshcryer Aug 2014 #260

Then you agree that Hillary should have challengers. JDPriestly Aug 2014 #273

Absolutely. joshcryer Aug 2014 #285

My first memory of a Democratic Convention was 1952 --I was nine. JDPriestly Aug 2014 #286

Obama is the most bipartisan President in history. joshcryer Aug 2014 #288

Good points. But partisanship just for the sake of partisanship does not get things JDPriestly Aug 2014 #289

I don't think he will JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #287

Agreed Gothmog Aug 2014 #99

Agreed. And Hillary Clinton is not inevitable. EEO Aug 2014 #111

The only thing inevitable about Hillary is that she will do Wall Street's bidding. InAbLuEsTaTe Aug 2014 #253

Thread should end there. JoePhilly Aug 2014 #177

Sadly typical. We must end the discussion because we don't have any good reasons rhett o rick Aug 2014 #187

Who in their right mind would ever support someone who made such a boneheaded decision to support the invasion of Iraq? InAbLuEsTaTe Aug 2014 #254

In your opinion, who will get the Repub nomination? Don't leave us in suspenders. nm rhett o rick Aug 2014 #182

What this guy.. such a charmer.. and oh yeah a Liar Cha Aug 2014 #214

Very true. 3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #277

If I wanted to read that much, I'd go to school NightWatcher Aug 2014 #2

Never underrestimate the body politic in America. TM99 Aug 2014 #17

I, too, found this a good read ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #68

But it does seem that part of the Democratic base pscot Aug 2014 #119

I'm not sure what point you're arguing 2banon Aug 2014 #132

I am saying ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #140

ok. I think I understand you clearly now. 2banon Aug 2014 #168

Close ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #188

Women and minorities can't afford more corporatism. woo me with science Aug 2014 #205

Well Said, woo! 2banon Aug 2014 #208

Actually, ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #229

EXACTLY!! Get out of my head. I literally just posted the same point. Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2014 #236

"not that that is any of your concern" woo me with science Aug 2014 #237

Well, that not really true ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #245

Unless you're part of the 1%, it's YOUR STRUGGLE TOO. It's both RACE AND CLASS Struggle together 2banon Aug 2014 #248

Well, honestly ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #250

The Privileged Class does have it's perks, now don't it? 2banon Aug 2014 #255

I make no apology for ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #261

I think a more accurate and useful way to conceptualize the situation woo me with science Aug 2014 #269

Apologies not expected nor requested 2banon Aug 2014 #270

And you have a vested interest in maintaining the racial status quo; ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #271

I do not ignore nor deflate dynamics at play on matters of Race and Class 2banon Aug 2014 #274

Mischaracterizing what you are being told does not help your argument. woo me with science Aug 2014 #275

Yes, this exactly.. 2banon Aug 2014 #276

This response is to you, Woo and 2Bannon ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #283

OH, please! Don't lecture us. We know where we are, were, and will always be. You see, we never Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2014 #234

I see.. 2banon Aug 2014 #206

Very well said. I've noticed that tactic in the pro-corporate posting: woo me with science Aug 2014 #241

Thank you for adding more clarity... you're exactly spot on. 2banon Aug 2014 #247

So what are the important issues? Savannahmann Aug 2014 #218

Great post. woo me with science Aug 2014 #281

When Sarah Palin defeated Obama, I was incredulous emulatorloo Aug 2014 #98

You're not alone. hifiguy Aug 2014 #123

a dry drunk who destroyed every business he touched AlbertCat Aug 2014 #126

Bush was close enough in votes for hanging chads to matter. TM99 Aug 2014 #142

Saddest about Bush is yeoman6987 Aug 2014 #145

Yuppers and that is why I do not TM99 Aug 2014 #160

The Powers That Be ran a representative of the statis quo Democrats against rhett o rick Aug 2014 #192

And the media does not deal in complexities. It deals in simplicity. AlbertCat Aug 2014 #146

It fits the mold. TM99 Aug 2014 #161

I agree with most of your analysis 2banon Aug 2014 #171

I went to school and I still don't want to read that much still_one Aug 2014 #26

Current polling says otherwise...by a longshot. JaneyVee Aug 2014 #3

The way some anti-Clinton folks heap praise upon Paul, they probably hope you're right. conservaphobe Aug 2014 #4

Interesting viewpoint from a Kossack: JaydenD Aug 2014 #11

I think you are confused. OilemFirchen Aug 2014 #16

Its you who are. Obama was the underdog, Clinton was the overdog. JaydenD Aug 2014 #20

Obama is The Annointed One? That sounds like racist dribble that right wingnuts said about him... Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2014 #67

"they DID say that about him!" Veilex Aug 2014 #109

Nuh-uh. OilemFirchen Aug 2014 #141

Your "lazy logic". First you say, "nuh-huh, that didn't happen". Then, you say... Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2014 #225

You've seen the light! OilemFirchen Aug 2014 #227

Ummm. Candidate Obama was NEVER the "Anointed One"... Veilex Aug 2014 #108

I see. OilemFirchen Aug 2014 #122

I have seen the light! Veilex Aug 2014 #137

I see. OilemFirchen Aug 2014 #139

"Internet rulez, courtesy of Vellex." Veilex Aug 2014 #149

I believe I did. OilemFirchen Aug 2014 #152

So, since a single paper out of the UK has the words Veilex Aug 2014 #210

'Looks' is the key word. conservaphobe Aug 2014 #30

Can't disagree with what you said there. JaydenD Aug 2014 #40

Wow... you must really despise Hillary. DCBob Aug 2014 #170

Except the Kossack's viewpoint isn't grounded in reality. wyldwolf Aug 2014 #35

People mistake their opinions for facts and statistical analysis of the voters. stevenleser Aug 2014 #41

and that really is a hallmark of far left and far right thinking wyldwolf Aug 2014 #54

DU is as much a hall of mirrors as Free Republic or any other wingnut forum emulatorloo Aug 2014 #80

President Kucinich begs to differ. (n/t) OilemFirchen Aug 2014 #134

There's nothing wrong with that train of thought..... daleanime Aug 2014 #84

There is a LOT wrong with it. Opinions do not carry the weight of facts or statistical analysis. stevenleser Aug 2014 #110

A tool is only worth what it's used for.... daleanime Aug 2014 #147

That does not apply to this situation. The OP presented his opinions as fact. stevenleser Aug 2014 #153

Then we're not too far apart.... daleanime Aug 2014 #155

Opinions change, and Polls turn out to be Fantasy Demeter Aug 2014 #101

Deeply held beliefs do not change in two years. Polls are never fantasy. They are either stevenleser Aug 2014 #107

"People mistake their opinions for facts and statistical analysis of the voters" Veilex Aug 2014 #116

No, no, and no. stevenleser Aug 2014 #143

Embarrassing is pretending that those polls are meaningful. jeff47 Aug 2014 #166

Those polls and studies are meaningful for a number of reasons. stevenleser Aug 2014 #169

I love how you utterly ignored 2006's massive errors jeff47 Aug 2014 #176

I am doing nothing of the sort. You are wrong on every point. stevenleser Aug 2014 #179

Really? I'm so wrong you completely changed the subject? jeff47 Aug 2014 #183

I didn't change the subject. The entire OP is about Rand Paul vs Hillary. You changed the subject. stevenleser Aug 2014 #191

And you have never typed the word "Romney" because...... jeff47 Aug 2014 #194

Romney has nothing to do with whether Rand is electable. Again, Romney is part of your strawman. stevenleser Aug 2014 #196

Romney is an example of your analysis utterly failing. jeff47 Aug 2014 #199

No, it's not, because I am talking about something completely different than your straw man. stevenleser Aug 2014 #200

Then feel free to actually explain how Romney and McCain don't fit. jeff47 Aug 2014 #202

Yep! Looks like it did in 2006 and 2007 when Hillary the Inevitable, the Annointed One, Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2014 #238

Since Hillary has decided to publicly speak, those numbers have plummeted. JaydenD Aug 2014 #48

oh, yeah, a wild 4 - 5 point swing in a +/- 4% error sample. All it takes is 50% + 1 wyldwolf Aug 2014 #53

At this early stage, those numbers are quite significant. JaydenD Aug 2014 #60

not significant at all. Typical for a politician. wyldwolf Aug 2014 #62

We will see, won't we. JaydenD Aug 2014 #72

According to you. Not according to professionals like Nate Silver who accurately predict elections. stevenleser Aug 2014 #64

No, they haven't. Nate Silver just spoke directly to those assertions. stevenleser Aug 2014 #55

"...he looks more progressive on some current issues..." DonViejo Aug 2014 #36

I see it as calling it shameful toward Hillary rather than praise toward Paul. JaydenD Aug 2014 #51

The word "progressive" should never be used to describe Rand Paul. nt SunSeeker Aug 2014 #117

but yet some of his ideas are more progressive than Hillary's - on matters of war, for example. JaydenD Aug 2014 #136

No, they are not "progressive," they all stem from his anti-government views. SunSeeker Aug 2014 #144

Okay, I see your point. I don't intend to give Paul any honor. JaydenD Aug 2014 #148

That depends on how deeply you analyze his beliefs. The 'whys' matter. stevenleser Aug 2014 #150

He's actually not an isolationist. OilemFirchen Aug 2014 #154

Interesting post: Jamaal510 Aug 2014 #165

this is the most important subthread I've seen in a while. wyldwolf Aug 2014 #172

You suggest nominating Bernie Sanders? oberliner Aug 2014 #5

Actually I think the George McGovern defeat was pretty bad. Ironically, McGovern would have been a still_one Aug 2014 #28

That was before Mondale oberliner Aug 2014 #31

I agree still_one Aug 2014 #58

You know what Joe Turner Aug 2014 #212

That seems pretty defeatist oberliner Aug 2014 #223

I think you're right. woo me with science Aug 2014 #6

And....to those who claim so confidently that Rand Paul would never even get out of a primary... woo me with science Aug 2014 #18

This message was self-deleted by its author woo me with science Aug 2014 #59

Paul will implode in national spotlight, as Sharon Angle, "I am not a witch," Sarah Palin, etc. emulatorloo Aug 2014 #87

Exactly what people said about that idiot from Texas in 1998. jeff47 Aug 2014 #167

Rand is a "true-believer" who cannot STFU. Shrub was a suit who did what he was told emulatorloo Aug 2014 #201

Which is why he still goes on Maddow. jeff47 Aug 2014 #203

It is interesting, isn't it? 2banon Aug 2014 #278

+1 ...dayaaaammmmmnnnn spot on. n/t L0oniX Aug 2014 #71

Love to read your posts! +1000000000 Phlem Aug 2014 #127

Jeez, yes.. This is exactly what's happening.. 2banon Aug 2014 #279

I have as much chance as being the 45th president as Rand Paul/nt DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2014 #7

I don't knowbout that ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #82

Progressives are going to vote for a man who said he would have opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2014 #106

Please listen more closely to what the DU "progressives" ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #120

Take out the high falluting language DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2014 #124

I don't see paul winning, either ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #130

You're making an argument for Democratic Party to take Anti-War and Anti-Wall Street positions 2banon Aug 2014 #181

That's my point ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #186

It seems that way at times.. 2banon Aug 2014 #193

My I ask what youdo for a living ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #217

Well.. now I'm on SSA.. 2banon Aug 2014 #230

While it is true ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #231

HRC 2banon Aug 2014 #235

And here's the sticking point ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #244

By today's Political Class Standards, I agree. 2banon Aug 2014 #257

We are talking two different status quos ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #258

Socio-economics Brother, Socio-economics. n/t 2banon Aug 2014 #259

Are two different interests, Brother. Two different interests. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #262

Sister to you please. No, they're connected. it's all connected. peel off that onion. 2banon Aug 2014 #264

Sorry ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #265

No Sir, that's quite incorrect. 2banon Aug 2014 #267

Okay, I see our disconnect ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #268

Socioeconomic, Racial and Gender Equality 2banon Aug 2014 #272

Hillary's theme will be "spreading American values" CJCRANE Aug 2014 #8

Like "hard working white people" values? Those values? Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2014 #69

Yeah... Jester Messiah Aug 2014 #105

Priceless: Rand running away from a Dreamer. n/t UTUSN Aug 2014 #9

Unrec, except for the LOLs. FSogol Aug 2014 #10

The thread is being very rapidly swarmed by the resident Third Way crew. woo me with science Aug 2014 #12

to counteract the absurd far left crew wyldwolf Aug 2014 #38

LOL. If it's so absurd, why swarm it? woo me with science Aug 2014 #42

no swarming. This is a discussion forum. If you want a place where only your opinion is allowed... wyldwolf Aug 2014 #57

+1. eom. 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #86

Oh come on now ...just as we are all warming up to the third way corporatist war hawks. L0oniX Aug 2014 #61

LOL! woo me with science Aug 2014 #70

Lol at "far left" ForgoTheConsequence Aug 2014 #128

^^^^This^^^ +1000 2banon Aug 2014 #233

They definitely hate the left more than they hate republicans. ForgoTheConsequence Aug 2014 #242

Apolitical left. joshcryer Aug 2014 #198

oxymoron, there's no such thing. 2banon Aug 2014 #280

Not since Snowden and Greenwald evoked the swarm effect carolinayellowdog Aug 2014 #224

DU political prognostications always tickle me./NT DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2014 #13

I agree ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #89

Maybe Paul Ryan but not Rand flamingdem Aug 2014 #14

I cannot find anything in your essay that I disagree with, Savannahman. Nay Aug 2014 #15

Either way, we're screwed. smirkymonkey Aug 2014 #22

You and OP must have skipped out on politics 101. First, ensure you have support of your base. stevenleser Aug 2014 #25

See post 18. woo me with science Aug 2014 #27

Right and wrong are soooo old school. Winning is all. L0oniX Aug 2014 #34

In politics ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #102

And another significant segment of the gop base ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #100

Good point. They won't say anything, they just won't donate money or set up PACs and that is a big stevenleser Aug 2014 #174

I think Hillary really does want more war. magical thyme Aug 2014 #159

Rand PAul will never get past the Baggers in the primaries. MohRokTah Aug 2014 #19

All other analysis of the subject says otherwise. Rand would alienate 30-40% of the GOP base stevenleser Aug 2014 #21

Would those be the same political professionals who.. Savannahmann Aug 2014 #44

You are mixing apples and oranges and hoping it supports you. It doesn't. stevenleser Aug 2014 #47

+1 "...the rest of us can look out and see what is really happening..." woo me with science Aug 2014 #63

Can't wait until he allows businesses to discriminate based on race, can you? emulatorloo Aug 2014 #90

I just can't wait to see the status of women and minorities in this country woo me with science Aug 2014 #197

Rand Paul? President? LOL. XRubicon Aug 2014 #23

Rand Paul is a lightweight. I have no idea why anyone thinks he will be President. TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #24

Who do you see getting the Republican nomination? oberliner Aug 2014 #29

They all lack gravitas. Gawd, I hate that word but it's true DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2014 #32

Indicting Perry sure didn't add any "gravitas" to the status quo neocon crowd. woo me with science Aug 2014 #37

I really don't know. Probably Jeb. It was supposed to be Christie, but TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #45

I should also add, I think Paul Ryan will run and is less of a lightweight than Rand Paul. TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #75

Jeb Bush. The moneyed powers-that-be want him in the White House. eom BlueCaliDem Aug 2014 #49

Reagan was a joke, too, and look what happened there. nt Nay Aug 2014 #81

LOL--and I'm still not over the absurd notion of GWB as President. TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #113

Absurd. DCBob Aug 2014 #39

I'm glad I read through all the comments, MoonchildCA Aug 2014 #138

you raise some good points, more likely Bush versus Clinton, as the elite battle it out whereisjustice Aug 2014 #43

I have always maintained that in 2016 it would be Bush vs. Clinton. Nay Aug 2014 #178

besides money polluting politics, congress is basically same size as 1914 in spite of fact that whereisjustice Aug 2014 #209

Rush Limbaugh stands with Rand Paul woo me with science Aug 2014 #46

"lends weight" plus Rush = LOL XRubicon Aug 2014 #50

Okay, buster... you and your coffee and donuts JaydenD Aug 2014 #256

Any ideas and principals from the opposition are automatically bad. Right? L0oniX Aug 2014 #52

A principled principal! OilemFirchen Aug 2014 #129

lol Bobbie Jo Aug 2014 #266

No ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #56

a VERY important point! n/t wyldwolf Aug 2014 #66

Actually, I never said I was voting for him. Savannahmann Aug 2014 #74

+1000 heaven05 Aug 2014 #77

His trip to do surgery on poor blind people in Nicaragua is his campaign in action and idiots Autumn Aug 2014 #65

Oh my sides....PULEASE Stop! I can't take it.... VanillaRhapsody Aug 2014 #78

Fingers crossed! Metric System Aug 2014 #79

Nice try! But no cigar. BlueMTexpat Aug 2014 #83

It seems that overlooking Paul sadoldgirl Aug 2014 #85

Watching the tape of him weasel out of those questions by that woman in the resaurant was..... wolfie001 Aug 2014 #88

Lots of people here would cut off their noses to spite their faces emulatorloo Aug 2014 #91

Are you Libertarian or Democrat? Thinkingabout Aug 2014 #92

From your lips to God's Ear Demeter Aug 2014 #93

I'm still hoping there is a serious challenge to 'inevitable' Hillary Dems to Win Aug 2014 #95

No it won't amuse bouche Aug 2014 #96

Rick Perry was never the presumptive nominee of the GOP Gothmog Aug 2014 #97

Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #103

I disagree to some degree. indivisibleman Aug 2014 #104

I like Sanders as a Dem with Grayson as VP but I seem to be 1 of 2 here. rickyhall Aug 2014 #112

Suppose she's looking for a different effect? loyalsister Aug 2014 #114

Why not Eric Holder? Someone must have asked "why not Obama" about this time, 2006. Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #118

I hate News of the future AlbertCat Aug 2014 #125

I have a SERIOUS fear MoleyRusselsWart Aug 2014 #131

Very good post.... AlbertCat Aug 2014 #151

Ha, duly noted MoleyRusselsWart Aug 2014 #156

I know... AlbertCat Aug 2014 #162

Yup, 5 week old son in MoleyRusselsWart Aug 2014 #163

A President Rand Paul sounds scary. Louisiana1976 Aug 2014 #157

I don't think HRC can lose voters to the GOP Proud Public Servant Aug 2014 #180

Nah. Rand Paul looks like a muppet. jobycom Aug 2014 #204

I prefer Warren or Sanders but nominating Hillary will not lead to Paul or the Apocolypse pampango Aug 2014 #207

"Either way, the Base of the Democratic Party will find themselves agreeing with Paul ..." Scuba Aug 2014 #211

The base of the Democratic Party includes black folk. Black folk are not persuaded Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2014 #239

This is just not based in reality. DemocraticWing Aug 2014 #213

Hate To Say It But If Hillary Doesn't Clean Up Her Act...It's Rand Paul As Our Next President iloveObama12 Aug 2014 #215

Horse manure - such drama. Gman Aug 2014 #216

UNREC brooklynite Aug 2014 #219

Pretty Much Nonsense. MineralMan Aug 2014 #220

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Iggo Aug 2014 #221

If half the electorate wasn't nuts, I'd say you were off your rocker. Vinca Aug 2014 #222

Not that it would have dissuaded any of those Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #226

DU Rec. SixString Aug 2014 #228

He definitely is framing the issues that we should be out ahead of. Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #232

You said: Either way, the Base of the Democratic Party will find themselves agreeing with Paul Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2014 #240

The problem is that nobody is making sense on many issues. Savannahmann Aug 2014 #246

Excuse me. I didn't assert that black voters are the only Democratic voters. Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2014 #249

Let me begin by apologizing. Savannahmann Aug 2014 #251

+1 eom 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #284

Dream on. Ted "I fucked up the country" Cruz has a better chance! Rex Aug 2014 #243

Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #263

The key question for the GOP is "Whose turn is it?" Wella Aug 2014 #282

For the last time Blue_Tires Aug 2014 #290