What should be done about Russia and Ukraine?

[freshwest]

61. Only through NATO requests, and as I've said before, Ukraine never made it into NATO. Other members

must agree. NATO is allied with the UN. We signed onto the treaty as did other members, for our own defense. We still are fighting to prevent a repeat performance of:



There was an arms race in the middle of WW2 that never ended from Allied side, unwilling to allow it again. The close of that conflict officially did not end the arms race as the alliance between the West and the USSR collapsed.

Russia has always had an edge on NATO in nuclear technology, which Putin has recently referred to as an indication of the power of Russia, posted in another thread today. Most of us within range of Cuba in the 1960s were taught to get under school desks and kiss our ass goodbye during that time. We were separated according to how far our homes were from school. If lived close, we were told, we'd be allowed to go home to be with our families and die. If not (and I was one of those) we would have to stay at school and die. They showed us images of what the atomic bomb did and the deaths that followed. That was going to be our fate, we were told. In any case, we would die. Kruschev beat on the podium in the UN and said he would bury us, years after WW2 was over with. I don't think it ever was, now. So these institutions exist to keep the fighting less deadly. But death is part of it.

Look at the casualties on both sides, the Allies who are mostly in NATO now, lost by far the most lives, both military and civilian. Especially percentages of population. Our current generations have not seen, and can scarcely conceive, of the costs of that in psychological terms to all involved. We can only see the images and statistics, but it is what is under the surface.

The Jews made 'never forget' their meme, but no one else in power has forgotten. It's why the President goes to place a wreath or do homage on D-Day in Europe. This is what created our world with its prosperity, and set into motion many things that could be for good or evil. It's not all just one or the other, but the mind reels at the data being input and tries to simplify it in B&W terms.

We are tired. But the WW2 generation lived and died in what is called 'total' warfare on a scale not seen since, because of the treaties. I've researched and posted a lot on this when Libya and Syria hit the news. It was eye opening to me, as I'd thought, NATO, pfft! Military, double pfft and get out of my wallet! And various other pffts one might adopt in order to not go along the road of militarism. It's not that easy, though.

The member states of NATO hold the majority of military power and technology and spend more money on it than any other nation singly, or in combination, on the face of the planet. Their people came to rely on those awful preparations for war, and were free to live without being called to sacrifice personally or financially except as part of their social contract.

A secularist, like myself, knows there are things my taxes are paid to do that I don't want; and things that I do want. I respect that some may not want to spend federal money on abortion, birth control, affirmative action, social and public services that I do want.

To them, I give the finger. To those who believe the mission of government is purely to defend 'the homeland (ugh)' I also give the finger. But I can't have one without the other, sad to say, because the human race does not appear to have evolved.

Torture, murder and mayhem have always been with the human race and I see nothing special in what we have done, no matter how much outrage I feel. It's only remarkable in the comparison, and only that we feel ownership and betrayal. There have always been those who do such things and never had a ideal that could be betrayed.

I'm tired of humanity, or rather my own hopes for evolution of the species, right now, so forgive me if I speak negatively. We are coming at a point in our world that our ideals may mean little with what the wounds of nature will now inflict upon us. I would rather be killed by a tornado for there is no malice, no intent to degrade. It just is what happens.

Back to NATO and our moral authority to act. Bush, Jr. abused the other members of NATO, which has the mandate for joint action when a member state is attacked, after 9/11. The fraudulent use of that has made member states very wary.

The responsibilities of the different NATO member states vary. It appears the USA was given the role of supplying boots on the ground and operating the technology of death, but others no so much. They do give support they feel comfortable with as they have less people. All contribute money to make it all work for all.

The reason our military took action in Libya and threatened Syria was because UN member states or NATO members demanded we enforce the treaties and take the heat for it. Specifically, Turkey has repeatedly called for intervention in Syria, as the fighting there is destabilizing them.

The CWC of the UN played a big part in those events, and it still plays a part in all that we do in the Middle East. The CWC covers chemical weapons, biological and radiological ones. And nuclear weaponry is part of that equation.

The USA made successful overtures to Iran who has supported Syria to get them to turn over their chemical weapons. We are no longer adversaries of the kind we had been under Bush and before. North Korea has been called a state sponsor of terrorism for supplying Syria and other nations things forbidden under the CWC. Before Libya and Syria made the news, they were not signatories to the CWC and now they are. All was done without our boots on the ground.

Yes, there will be covert operations done. Some are good and some bad, IMO, but those involved would disagree they are doing anything wrong. I'm not qualified to judge them from the media spin but some days sit back in wonder at the complex nature of the world and where people find their place in it. Obama has pushed the world toward peace, we can say in one way. It's less of the idyllic version of peace we may want to see happen, yet it is not total war. It's going to continue to be full of skirmishes and genocides that are violent, bloody and disgusting and we see it around the world.

The absence of war does not give the exhilaration of soldiers returning to the USA at the close of WW2. A permanent level of small wars is what we appear to be entering. There will be death, there will be torture, looting and war crimes. Our view of war crimes comes from the prism of WW2. Take away that foundation, and there will be no standards.

That's long and rambling, more than you wanted to hear but I need some coffee to wake up. In many more words than you expected, my answer is yes, we do have the moral authority to do things, but only as have been granted in treaties we have promised to uphold.

Obama has acted solely within those treaties, and not one step further. The wisest thing to do will be sanctions, but there is no will to stop the raising of new flags or redrawing maps by Americans, or the West. We just don't feel it's our place, and we may or may not let the treaties that protected us lapse and have WW3. Those treaties were put in place to prevent WW3.

JMHO.