General Discussion

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)

98. Exactly right.

Sat Aug 30, 2014, 06:52 AM

Aug 2014

The Russians will eventually annex eastern Ukraine, probably concurrent with western Ukraine joining Nato. There is fuck all we can do about that. Our efforts so far have simply consolidated Putin's control over the Russian state as the new Great Leader taking Russia out of its post USSR decline and back into Great Power status, even if that status is, as Obama sneeringly put it, "regional". It is a big region, and we really don't have any military options there.

We can further consolidate Putin's control with punitive sanctions. We probably have no choice but to do just that. So far, this is Putin's game, and he has played it well.

The other reality is that Ukraine was a failed state for the last decade or more. The division between the Russia facing east and the EU facing west was irreconcilable. A split was inevitable.

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What should be done about Russia and Ukraine? [View all] edhopper Aug 2014 OP

Not Really Much Can Be Done, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #1

Economic sanctions and monetary punishment edhopper Aug 2014 #7

True, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #12

Not going to happen sir. Thank you however, for this post. 3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #130

Exactly right. Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #98

I concur. grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #106

I agree with The Magistrate, not much can be done. nt ChisolmTrailDem Aug 2014 #2

France should cancel delivery of the 2 helicopter carriers, for a start muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #3

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Peacetrain Aug 2014 #5

Neither possible. France needs money, the EU needs fuel. Resource wars, as usual. freshwest Aug 2014 #30

Putin is a despicable SOB! Peacetrain Aug 2014 #4

The UN has no military. former9thward Aug 2014 #10

Even worse AgingAmerican Aug 2014 #26

Nothing is as good as it gets TheKentuckian Aug 2014 #6

1. Ratchet up the sanctions against Russia. Nye Bevan Aug 2014 #8

Ukraine should implement RF Foreign Minister Lavrov's proposal for VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #9

Angela Merkel proposed that same thing on her visit eridani Aug 2014 #33

That's what the Sudeten Germans claimed too. BillZBubb Aug 2014 #43

The fascists are in Kiev eridani Aug 2014 #53

There are fascists in every country, including Urkaine and Russia BillZBubb Aug 2014 #56

Nonsense--that has never been included in their demands eridani Aug 2014 #58

Because we can expect honesty and transparency from them? hack89 Aug 2014 #105

I always support people who are being attacked, not their attackers eridani Aug 2014 #110

So you support Russian imperialism? hack89 Aug 2014 #111

I support self-determination by the people of eastern Ukraine eridani Aug 2014 #113

So Russian troops in Ukraine don't bother you? nt hack89 Aug 2014 #114

White supremacists heading to Kiev from all over the world bother me much more eridani Aug 2014 #116

So it is all America's fault? hack89 Aug 2014 #117

America and Western Europe promised not to expand NATO after Gorbachev withdrew troops eridani Aug 2014 #123

NATO did not expand into Ukraine hack89 Aug 2014 #124

But they certainly intend to n/t eridani Aug 2014 #125

And that justifies a Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory? hack89 Aug 2014 #126

For the same reason we would assert a right to invade Mexico had it ever joined the Warsaw Pact n/t eridani Aug 2014 #129

There are facists edhopper Aug 2014 #57

There are plenty of fascists in Moscow if you go by the definition of fascism. pampango Aug 2014 #70

Cool, the rebranded 14 points of fascism MFrohike Aug 2014 #128

Please share your definition of fascism and how it does or does not apply pampango Aug 2014 #133

My try MFrohike Sep 2014 #137

Uh, that train has left the station... MattSh Aug 2014 #51

"Don't do stupid shit" Bragi Aug 2014 #11

Bravo! (Brava!). VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #13

No more military action! Vots Aug 2014 #14

What? BillZBubb Aug 2014 #19

Uh, what treaty? MattSh Aug 2014 #54

As I understand it, a treaty of the demarcation of borders was signed in 2010. BillZBubb Aug 2014 #60

So you wish the U.S. to cut ties Jenoch Aug 2014 #20

No. Vots Aug 2014 #135

+1. Next thing you know we'll be fighting the side we're supporting... grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #108

Explaining my take on the situation will open me up to considerable ridicule, but here goes! tech3149 Aug 2014 #15

I Would Agree With You In Part, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #21

I won't argue your points re: NATO there is much that I have not studied on the issue tech3149 Aug 2014 #31

Those Two Are Same Things, Sir, Just From Different Ends The Magistrate Aug 2014 #34

I agree with you....no ridicule here... KoKo Aug 2014 #63

Completely disagree "EU offered Ukraine nothing." joshcryer Aug 2014 #67

NATO has become an instrument of US world military hegemony. Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #99

NATO members who would face invasion geek tragedy Aug 2014 #104

That post was a drink of refreshing water Union Scribe Aug 2014 #101

It would seem that Russia needs to be contained geek tragedy Aug 2014 #103

You've hit a nerve. I've wondered the same thing. Maybe we're supposed to be kept confused about ancianita Aug 2014 #16

Good questions all tech3149 Aug 2014 #25

Putin's "demographic unification" smacks of the annexaton of the Sudetenland. BillZBubb Aug 2014 #28

Thanks! ancianita Aug 2014 #41

I think Putin is trying to reestablish the borders of the old Soviet Union. Cleita Aug 2014 #17

Belarus Jenoch Aug 2014 #23

But isn't Belarus firmly on Putin's side? TheMightyFavog Aug 2014 #94

Bessarabia is my guess. LanternWaste Aug 2014 #24

Do you mean Transnistria, Jenoch Aug 2014 #109

Northern Kazakhstan meMeMEEEE Aug 2014 #49

At a minimum we need to ramp up economic sanctions mythology Aug 2014 #18

Does the US have the moral authority to intervene? panader0 Aug 2014 #22

Only through NATO requests, and as I've said before, Ukraine never made it into NATO. Other members freshwest Aug 2014 #61

Encourage a negotiated settlement. bemildred Aug 2014 #27

Unfortunately, Sir, I Doubt That Is Possible, Now, Or From The Start, For That Matter The Magistrate Aug 2014 #32

Nothing much to lose at this point, Sir. bemildred Aug 2014 #35

I Never Object To Negotiation, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #36

What one approves of was not the question. bemildred Aug 2014 #38

Fair Enough, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #39

I would be negotiating to keep it together, minus Crimea. bemildred Aug 2014 #42

That Would Be A Reasonable Settlement, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #46

He can take it now. nt bemildred Aug 2014 #48

I don't see how, at this point, a fair deal for Ukraine is possible. BillZBubb Aug 2014 #40

I will ignore your Hitler-Chamberlain analogy and just point out that things can still get worse. nt bemildred Aug 2014 #44

The analogy is apt and should not be ignored. The general situation is eerily similar. BillZBubb Aug 2014 #47

Bye. nt bemildred Aug 2014 #50

Why should we "encourage western values"? former9thward Aug 2014 #92

Mainly to encourage getting western money too. bemildred Aug 2014 #95

Speak softly and forget the stick. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2014 #29

Send a sternly-worded letter. Comrade Grumpy Aug 2014 #37

make a deal with China meMeMEEEE Aug 2014 #45

As much as I appreciate the devious nature of your suggestion, BillZBubb Aug 2014 #52

Plan B meMeMEEEE Aug 2014 #59

Putin would probably say "Keep her!" BillZBubb Aug 2014 #62

Plan C meMeMEEEE Aug 2014 #65

it is about continuing the unipolar moment: if we remove Russia from Crimea and the West controls yurbud Aug 2014 #55

Russia wants war, clearly Laughing Mirror Aug 2014 #64

Nice map. How does that apply to Russia's unprovoked war of aggression against Ukraine again? nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #71

Russia's unprovoked war of aggression Laughing Mirror Aug 2014 #96

you're clueless meMeMEEEE Aug 2014 #88

Yes I'm clueless Laughing Mirror Aug 2014 #97

The Ukraine is not part of NATO fadedrose Aug 2014 #66

Obama should nominate George W. Bush as special ambassador to Putin. GeorgeGist Aug 2014 #68

+1. nt bemildred Aug 2014 #69

Absolutely! But no cocktails for Bush leftstreet Aug 2014 #75

You can almost hear Putin's thoughts.... Xolodno Aug 2014 #83

US out of Ukraine. TBF Aug 2014 #72

Nope, we need NATO into Ukraine. Army, Air and Naval bases, immediately. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #74

Then everyone can watch their portfolios as TBF Aug 2014 #76

So according to you, Russia is allowed to engage in unprovoked wars of aggression stevenleser Aug 2014 #77

That is not the way I'd characterize the situation - TBF Aug 2014 #79

You're the one rubber stamping an unprovoked war of aggression stevenleser Aug 2014 #81

Nope - I am the one arguing that if we stay out TBF Aug 2014 #84

Translation: You are rubber stamping Russia's imperialistic unprovoked war of aggression stevenleser Aug 2014 #86

Again you are dead wrong - TBF Aug 2014 #87

you do realize that would result in an actual real war in eastern europe? Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #100

No it wouldn't. Putin and the Oligarchs have no intention of dying. They enjoy their lives too much stevenleser Aug 2014 #115

and you are certain of that, despite the risk of millions dead? Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #118

Just as Putin was certain we wouldnt attack his troops that invaded. Yes, certain. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #120

The equivalency is not there. Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #136

Horrible idea and it won't happen. morningfog Aug 2014 #121

It's "Ukraine" not "the Ukraine" Hippo_Tron Aug 2014 #73

Thank you Duckhunter935 Aug 2014 #82

fixed edhopper Aug 2014 #90

Well, if we applied our standards evenly... Scootaloo Aug 2014 #78

Ouch leftstreet Aug 2014 #80

Yup. nt TBF Aug 2014 #85

Oh SNAP! n/t eridani Aug 2014 #93

Ukraine is stuck between a rock and hard place. Xolodno Aug 2014 #89

noooope meMeMEEEE Aug 2014 #91

NATO membership and troops for whatever part Russia geek tragedy Aug 2014 #102

I heard Russia increased social security 300% over the past few years. Perhaps Ukraine could do the grahamhgreen Aug 2014 #107

Nada. Unless we want to start World War 3 over it. roamer65 Aug 2014 #112

You mean there is something else going on in the world besides misogyny RiffRandell Aug 2014 #119

I am not for military aid BainsBane Aug 2014 #122

nato should more military into important ukrainian towns and the samsingh Aug 2014 #127

Stay out of it. cheapdate Aug 2014 #131

You have to answer this question before you can answer that question The Traveler Aug 2014 #132

Ignore the world. It will go away. Let's join the tea party; withdraw from the UN and international pampango Aug 2014 #134