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progree

(12,947 posts)

116. What if he was asked to stand for the Pledge, period, without the stuff about showing respect for

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:04 PM

Aug 2014

the troops?

But he wasn't required to say the pledge or leave. He was required to express respect for, "American military troops who are serving overseas and others who have given their lives in defense of freedom" by standing, or leave.

To me its a religious freedom issue (as well as a free speech issue) that I have a right not to have to stand up for, or mouth theocratic expressions of faith -- nothing in Greece or any of the Pledge cases changes that. (I realize the Pledge cases and Greece case requires me to have to listen to this garbage or leave).

I agree that free speech issues also cover this and more issues, e.g. a right to not stand for or mouth the Pledge, for example, because pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth is silly. Or because the Pledge doesn't mention Jesus at all. Or whatever.

I'm just not sure that freedom of religion has no part of this -- and I suspect the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which you say is involved in this -- would agree with me. Do they agree it's only a free speech issue?

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Mayor orders man removed after he didn't stand for Pledge of Allegiance [View all] trumad Aug 2014 OP

Patriotism is the last refuge chervilant Aug 2014 #1

No, there's a rung lower. The Jesus card. nt valerief Aug 2014 #12

Good point. chervilant Aug 2014 #18

Ditto. Religion is the most effective brainwashing tool of the ruling class. nt valerief Aug 2014 #24

So well said! Nothing works like propagandizing the faithful. They are ready made putty, ready RKP5637 Aug 2014 #104

But then again this person who refused to stand for the anthem may have been a Jovah's Witness. jwirr Aug 2014 #42

Jehovah's Witnesses stand for pledge but... NOVA_Dem Aug 2014 #76

Making it, somehow, "for the troops" is particularly odious. MNBrewer Aug 2014 #22

Yeah, sounds very "for the children"ish. Everything oppressive is done, it seems, valerief Aug 2014 #35

What to do, what to do? The mayor thought the troops died to give him the freedom to A Simple Game Aug 2014 #36

I find it particularly heinous chervilant Aug 2014 #49

Particularly skanky too. lonestarnot Aug 2014 #122

with all due respect, it is the first. unblock Aug 2014 #44

Perhaps It's Both, UB ProfessorGAC Aug 2014 #82

Mayor needs to be removed for lack of comprehension of what is in the Constitution hobbit709 Aug 2014 #2

Too bad these people end up being called, "mayor"� MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #58

About patriotism or failure to obey his honor the authoritarian? HereSince1628 Aug 2014 #3

Why do I live in Florida? demwing Aug 2014 #4

No state tax? valerief Aug 2014 #13

nope, i'd welcome a state tax demwing Aug 2014 #28

And I can afford to live on an island ... CaptainTruth Aug 2014 #17

Some days I marvel at my commute demwing Aug 2014 #31

In my case Thespian2 Aug 2014 #21

I actually have a love/hate relationship with Florida demwing Aug 2014 #38

So the Mayor got his panties in a wad over THIS? Kath1 Aug 2014 #5

Well, to be accurate, pangaia Aug 2014 #14

AKA a loyalty oath thesquanderer Aug 2014 #26

Yup, they are SUPPOSED to, aren't they. pangaia Aug 2014 #51

No, to a nation under the rule of god. valerief Aug 2014 #33

I learned it without the reference to god also. pangaia Aug 2014 #52

That doesn't make it any less weird and creepy Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #48

True, that. pangaia Aug 2014 #53

"And to the Republic for which it stands" Kath1 Aug 2014 #61

Well, we have to keep ourselves honest, pangaia Aug 2014 #62

You're right about that! Kath1 Aug 2014 #63

It's a Mr. Rees, wrapped in a riddle, inside an enigma Thor_MN Aug 2014 #6

I suspect that the good citizens of Winter Garden ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #7

I agree that some money will likely change hands. Jim Lane Aug 2014 #9

LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #11

Would someone remind TNNurse Aug 2014 #8

That would be nice! Kath1 Aug 2014 #64

Power and Control. The real motive behind the RWNJ actions. littlemissmartypants Aug 2014 #10

and that wheel keeps going round and round, faster and faster valerief Aug 2014 #15

Great graphic. Thank you. jwirr Aug 2014 #43

Argh. No fuss in my southern public school when we quit saying the prayer or the pledge. freshwest Aug 2014 #16

He's not alone. I won't pledge or sing anything nationalistic. I walk out if I can. L0oniX Aug 2014 #19

First thing the guy should do is go find a good lawyer . . . brush Aug 2014 #20

He should win against the mayor but maybe not against the city and the cops Jim Lane Aug 2014 #50

"When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross" Sinclair Lewis Hestia Aug 2014 #23

Does the mayor really not see the hypocrisy of his statement? CaptainTruth Aug 2014 #25

'With Liberty and Justice for some'' Ichingcarpenter Aug 2014 #27

any action the commision took at the meeting should be voided rdking647 Aug 2014 #29

Fuck off Rees, it's called freedom of speech. blackspade Aug 2014 #30

This John Rees character sees himself as the new Judge Roy Moore. bullwinkle428 Aug 2014 #32

It's about time disruptors like this were put in their place! randome Aug 2014 #34

And Expressing Anger Over The Color Of A Suit! ProfessorGAC Aug 2014 #83

I don't stand, anymore, either. heaven05 Aug 2014 #37

I'm sure I'll draw the wrath of other posters in this thread but, 3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #39

Thanks 3rd way dem Ichingcarpenter Aug 2014 #41

How can you not? NutmegYankee Aug 2014 #54

Uh huh.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Aug 2014 #55

Try the first amendment. Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #56

LOL, says a lot about you. Nt Logical Aug 2014 #74

Judging from you posts, you might not really be a 3rd way dem. BillZBubb Sep 2014 #127

Patterning your life to please Glen BecKKK is really pathetic. lpbk2713 Aug 2014 #40

*Liberty*. That's what it means. I THINK. Doesn't it? nt Smarmie Doofus Aug 2014 #45

Yah, it's bad- but I remember packman Aug 2014 #46

How could he be elected 1Greensix Aug 2014 #47

This message was self-deleted by its author MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #57

Really? How is demanding that someone say, or stand for, the pledge of allegiance Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #59

For starters, the 1st Amendment doesn't "demand" anything... MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #60

Did you read the analysis? Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #67

Now, THAT'S a pretty screwy analysis, Ms. Toad MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #70

Not an elected official - but I happen to be an attorney Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #72

You may teach law, but you don't provide any case law for this at a local level... MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #73

The mayor is the one who took the action - Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #79

How was my pointing this out to you "condescending"? MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #88

You are not reading very carefully. Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #93

And boom goes the dynamite. trumad Aug 2014 #97

Thanks - Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #98

Oh, you're right about he or she must know the laws� but, for God's sake... MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #111

Woopsie. lonestarnot Aug 2014 #123

Sometimes it's better to remember the old saying COLGATE4 Sep 2014 #132

True - but I started out with a nice short, simple explanation. Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #133

Understood, I read the whole thread and thought COLGATE4 Sep 2014 #141

That's why I haven't responded to the last post. Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #142

Yep. nt COLGATE4 Sep 2014 #143

My self-deleted post... MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #113

No disrespect intended toward "troops" awoke_in_2003 Aug 2014 #65

Instead of "Support our Troops" indie9197 Aug 2014 #90

Looks like few if any actually read the article. whistler162 Aug 2014 #66

And why does that matter? Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #68

So if he always leaves early on his own, why did the mayor feel the urge to throw him out?? Blue_Tires Aug 2014 #69

LOL, you really miss the point? Wow! nt Logical Aug 2014 #75

No all of you seem to evade and whistler162 Aug 2014 #84

LOL, OK, now I get it. Him not standing is annoying you also. nt Logical Aug 2014 #91

No - you're missing the point. Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #99

Uh ... "Freedom," right? Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #89

Yes, it's religious freedom, the most important freedom there is ... progree Aug 2014 #92

My post was actually in reply to #66, which seemed to be defending the theocratic assholes Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #94

Yup. I was agreeing with you in my #92. And I don't quite know what w...162 is trying progree Aug 2014 #95

Actually - the choice he was given is a pure speech issue. Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #100

Many people refuse to say the pledge or stand up for it because of the "under God" phrase progree Aug 2014 #102

Correct - but the violation here Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #105

Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden *by their religion* tblue37 Aug 2014 #107

The issue here really wasn't religion. Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #110

What if he was asked to stand for the Pledge, period, without the stuff about showing respect for progree Aug 2014 #116

Given that he was "allowed" to sit during the prayer, Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #118

What if he asked people to stand for the prayer, with no other option except to leave? progree Aug 2014 #120

Not sure where you're getting anything about standing or leaving for the prayer Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #121

Once again - can the mayor force people to stand for the prayer? (or else leave)? progree Aug 2014 #124

I was discussing what happened - not what might happen at some other place and time. Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #126

Please read #125 progree Sep 2014 #128

Please read this from FFRF, and then argue that FFRF doesn't think a religious issue is at stake progree Sep 2014 #125

Have you watched the tape? Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #129

Does that change the Establishment Clause? progree Sep 2014 #131

The highest courts which have reviewed it Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #134

Clearly, the FFRF begs to differ. See #131 - clearly is making the argument about standing progree Sep 2014 #135

It is free to make whatever argument it wants. Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #136

Forcing people to stand for it is different. That is their issue. On religious grounds n/t progree Sep 2014 #137

Forced standing for the pledge cases have already been decided - Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #138

This message was self-deleted by its author progree Sep 2014 #139

This message was self-deleted by its author progree Sep 2014 #140

Thank you, I will. I always fight for quixotic causes like separation of church and state progree Sep 2014 #144

As to Barnette - Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #145

How many times do you need to recite the pledge? Owl Aug 2014 #71

I pledged allegiance to the Constitution when I was inducted into the military in the early '70s... Journeyman Aug 2014 #77

I stopped reciting the Pledge years ago. SheilaT Aug 2014 #78

One of our city council members refuses to say the Pledge or put his hand over his heart progree Aug 2014 #80

Does he leave the meeting each time whistler162 Aug 2014 #85

He is a City Council member. He has to stay to fulfill his duities. Not at all understanding progree Aug 2014 #87

When he leaves is completely irrelevant. Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #103

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter how often he exercises his constitutionally guaranteed rights. tblue37 Aug 2014 #108

And now the mayor can use city funds to fight an ACLU lawsuit, instead of fix potholes Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #81

Nope, no lawsuit from the citizen whistler162 Aug 2014 #86

It is a clear violation of the First Amendment. Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #106

Very clear violation. tabasco Aug 2014 #115

Exactly. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #119

Nope--he probably intended to create a test case for just such a suit, and tblue37 Aug 2014 #109

"I gave him an option." Paladin Aug 2014 #96

Nothing says "Freedom" quite like the phrase "loyalty oath required" does it? arcane1 Aug 2014 #101

Well said. XRubicon Aug 2014 #112

Yep... MrMickeysMom Aug 2014 #114

Why I do not salute the flag Generic Other Aug 2014 #117

I've don't do the the Pledge of Allegence Boudica the Lyoness Sep 2014 #130