Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
General Discussion
In reply to the discussion: Return of the Evil Empire [View all]Octafish
(55,745 posts)37. When's the administration going to release its evidence for all that? It's been two months.
Obama Should Release Ukraine Evidence
With the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine turning a local civil war into a U.S. confrontation with Russia, U.S. intelligence veterans urge President Obama to release what evidence he has about the tragedy and silence the hyperbole.
Ray McGovern
ConsortiumNews, July 29, 2014
EXCERPT...
If Youve Got the Goods
If the U.S. has more convincing evidence than what has so far been adduced concerning responsibility for shooting down Flight 17, we believe it would be best to find a way to make that intelligence public even at the risk of compromising sources and methods. Moreover, we suggest you instruct your subordinates not to cheapen U.S. credibility by releasing key information via social media like Twitter and Facebook.
The reputation of the messenger for credibility is also key in this area of public diplomacy. As is by now clear to you, in our view Secretary Kerry is more liability than asset in this regard. Similarly, with regard to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, his March 12, 2013 Congressional testimony under oath to what he later admitted were clearly erroneous things regarding NSA collection should disqualify him. Clapper should be kept at far remove from the Flight 17 affair.
What is needed, if youve got the goods, is an Interagency Intelligence Assessment the genre used in the past to lay out the intelligence. We are hearing indirectly from some of our former colleagues that what Secretary Kerry is peddling does not square with the real intelligence. Such was the case late last August, when Kerry created a unique vehicle he called a Government (not Intelligence) Assessment blaming, with no verifiable evidence, Bashar al-Assad for the chemical attacks near Damascus, as honest intelligence analysts refused to go along and, instead, held their noses.
We believe you need to seek out honest intelligence analysts now and hear them out. Then, you may be persuaded to take steps to curb the risk that relations with Russia might escalate from Cold War II into an armed confrontation. In all candor, we see little reason to believe that Secretary Kerry and your other advisers appreciate the enormity of that danger.
In our most recent (May 4) memorandum to you, Mr. President, we cautioned that if the U.S. wished to stop a bloody civil war between east and west Ukraine and avert Russian military intervention in eastern Ukraine, you may be able to do so before the violence hurtles completely out of control. On July 18, you joined the top leaders of Germany, France, and Russia in calling for an immediate ceasefire. Most informed observers believe you have it in your power to get Ukrainian leaders to agree. The longer Kiev continues its offensive against separatists in eastern Ukraine, the more such U.S. statements appear hypocritical.
We reiterate our recommendations of May 4, that you remove the seeds of this confrontation by publicly disavowing any wish to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and that you make it clear that you are prepared to meet personally with Russian President Putin without delay to discuss ways to defuse the crisis and recognize the legitimate interests of the various parties. The suggestion of an early summit got extraordinary resonance in controlled and independent Russian media. Not so in mainstream media in the U.S. Nor did we hear back from you.
CONTINUED...
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/
PS: Thanks for reminding me. Without evidence, I'm inclined to keep an open mind on matters of war and peace. I still remember when the United States government was telling me that Iraq was loaded with WMDs that were an immediate threat to the United States itself. As the same government had also reported Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, I didn't really believe them at the time.
PPS: Are you willing to volunteer for Ukraine, Tommy_Carcetti? You know, go and fight?
With the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine turning a local civil war into a U.S. confrontation with Russia, U.S. intelligence veterans urge President Obama to release what evidence he has about the tragedy and silence the hyperbole.
Ray McGovern
ConsortiumNews, July 29, 2014
EXCERPT...
If Youve Got the Goods
If the U.S. has more convincing evidence than what has so far been adduced concerning responsibility for shooting down Flight 17, we believe it would be best to find a way to make that intelligence public even at the risk of compromising sources and methods. Moreover, we suggest you instruct your subordinates not to cheapen U.S. credibility by releasing key information via social media like Twitter and Facebook.
The reputation of the messenger for credibility is also key in this area of public diplomacy. As is by now clear to you, in our view Secretary Kerry is more liability than asset in this regard. Similarly, with regard to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, his March 12, 2013 Congressional testimony under oath to what he later admitted were clearly erroneous things regarding NSA collection should disqualify him. Clapper should be kept at far remove from the Flight 17 affair.
What is needed, if youve got the goods, is an Interagency Intelligence Assessment the genre used in the past to lay out the intelligence. We are hearing indirectly from some of our former colleagues that what Secretary Kerry is peddling does not square with the real intelligence. Such was the case late last August, when Kerry created a unique vehicle he called a Government (not Intelligence) Assessment blaming, with no verifiable evidence, Bashar al-Assad for the chemical attacks near Damascus, as honest intelligence analysts refused to go along and, instead, held their noses.
We believe you need to seek out honest intelligence analysts now and hear them out. Then, you may be persuaded to take steps to curb the risk that relations with Russia might escalate from Cold War II into an armed confrontation. In all candor, we see little reason to believe that Secretary Kerry and your other advisers appreciate the enormity of that danger.
In our most recent (May 4) memorandum to you, Mr. President, we cautioned that if the U.S. wished to stop a bloody civil war between east and west Ukraine and avert Russian military intervention in eastern Ukraine, you may be able to do so before the violence hurtles completely out of control. On July 18, you joined the top leaders of Germany, France, and Russia in calling for an immediate ceasefire. Most informed observers believe you have it in your power to get Ukrainian leaders to agree. The longer Kiev continues its offensive against separatists in eastern Ukraine, the more such U.S. statements appear hypocritical.
We reiterate our recommendations of May 4, that you remove the seeds of this confrontation by publicly disavowing any wish to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and that you make it clear that you are prepared to meet personally with Russian President Putin without delay to discuss ways to defuse the crisis and recognize the legitimate interests of the various parties. The suggestion of an early summit got extraordinary resonance in controlled and independent Russian media. Not so in mainstream media in the U.S. Nor did we hear back from you.
CONTINUED...
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/
PS: Thanks for reminding me. Without evidence, I'm inclined to keep an open mind on matters of war and peace. I still remember when the United States government was telling me that Iraq was loaded with WMDs that were an immediate threat to the United States itself. As the same government had also reported Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, I didn't really believe them at the time.
PPS: Are you willing to volunteer for Ukraine, Tommy_Carcetti? You know, go and fight?
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
Recommendations
0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):
80 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz agrees with you 100-percent, L0oniX!
Octafish
Sep 2014
#3
We HAVE learned some things over the past few years that once were extremely puzzling
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#31
The people DID decide in those regions, the coup govt in Kiev launched a military assault on them
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#32
That is one dangerous threat to this country, the Bush family. And to other countries as we
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#34
Since you couldn't be bothered to read the material I cited, here it is in a nutshell:
truedelphi
Sep 2014
#67
And you could not be more wrong sadly. Just about everything in the OP is absolutely correct.
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#35
From 2011: Goldman Sachs Is So Desperate To Get Into Ukraine It's Advising The Government For FREE
Octafish
Sep 2014
#10
The $5.1 billion was given TO the Ukrainian government over the course of 22 years (1991 on).
pampango
Sep 2014
#30
The Rendon Group staged the 2004 Democratic National Convention when then Sen. Obama
bobthedrummer
Sep 2014
#49
I know all too well how many are affected by events that are covered up to fit in the lie machines
bobthedrummer
Sep 2014
#71
Profound thought, that. Thank you, Tierra y Libertad! This august group agrees with you...
Octafish
Sep 2014
#39
And those IMF loans will need to be paid back at usurious rates requiring austerity to.......
LongTomH
Sep 2014
#51
What a steaming load of bullshit. Pushes a false narrative while accusing others of doing so.
Tommy_Carcetti
Sep 2014
#36
When's the administration going to release its evidence for all that? It's been two months.
Octafish
Sep 2014
#37
You'd think a former spook like McGovern would know that the investigation is in Dutch hands...
Tommy_Carcetti
Sep 2014
#38
So you're saying that if I believe Ukraine is unjustly under attack from Russia....
Tommy_Carcetti
Sep 2014
#41
The vast majority of us here, myself included, heartily agree with your general premise.
Tommy_Carcetti
Sep 2014
#46
Got it. Thanks. From your post I thought you were denigrating me as a 'Conspiracy Theorist.'
Octafish
Sep 2014
#47
I notice that neither of the responses to your post bothered to try to refute your point about
davidpdx
Sep 2014
#75
Do you support the actions of the current Kiev government, which appears to be falling apart, again
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#53
You're assuming that the reason the Ukrainians are fighting is to protect the IMF?
Tommy_Carcetti
Sep 2014
#55
Apparently it isn't otherwise, Boroshenko, the Chocolate King, (dear alerters, he is known as
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#66
Wow! Explains why Geithner sacrificed homeowners to ''Foam the Runway'' for the Banks.
Octafish
Sep 2014
#79