General Discussion

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)

122. I'm sure that's true for some people

Mon Sep 8, 2014, 08:57 PM

Sep 2014

But am not convinced it's the main reason for US obtuseness to worker ownership.

You know, that for the first 50 or so years of the early Union Movement, worker-ownership was THE focus of union activity, then in early 1900s they opted for Collective Bargaining as the Union MO. This is one of the main reasons I don't buy your answer as the whole picture. <-- Granted, your answer may explain part of why the Unions shifted focus however.

Another reason is the Mondragon experience in the Basque region of Spain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

People in Mondragon have families, everyday financial concerns, fears of financial risk, etc. but they never-the-less have chosen worker ownership, AND they are mostly happy with it, and have expanded it into almost every sector of the economy, including banks.

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10 Reasons to Hate Capitalism [View all] ZombieHorde Sep 2014 OP

I don't need more reasons. Laffy Kat Sep 2014 #1

What's your preferred economic system? MineralMan Sep 2014 #2

The native American economic system seemed OK. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #3

See, the reason I ask is that simply destroying a global MineralMan Sep 2014 #20

Step one: turn as many against the system as possible. nt ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #70

I've had a worker owned business since 1974. MineralMan Sep 2014 #23

I think they call that capitalism... brooklynite Sep 2014 #57

I think NJCher Sep 2014 #83

Yes, and neighborhood cooperatives operate differently from State-Run businesses brooklynite Sep 2014 #111

Except there's no capital nt Depaysement Sep 2014 #85

Of course there's capital brooklynite Sep 2014 #112

I've had several one-person businesses. MineralMan Sep 2014 #116

Absolutely it's capitalism... brooklynite Sep 2014 #161

That's retention . . . Depaysement Sep 2014 #154

I wouldn't mind starting my own hospice. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #66

A noble goal. There is an eight-bed hospice MineralMan Sep 2014 #117

It's entrepreneurial capitalism as opposed to institutional, corporate, oligarchic types. immoderate Sep 2014 #105

That only works locally and tribally, much like anarchism itself. Warpy Sep 2014 #69

I also favor moving in that direction while we try to figure something else out. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #73

+1 TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #197

How does this work/what does it mean? Boom Sound 416 Sep 2014 #99

Private property is the construct we currently use. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #102

Make it Boom Sound 416 Sep 2014 #103

Just like there are different ways to do private property, ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #108

That doesn't answer the questions though Boom Sound 416 Sep 2014 #110

You can criticize capitalism without offering alternatives leftstreet Sep 2014 #6

Of course you can, but replacing it will require a definition MineralMan Sep 2014 #16

Restricting profits doesn't 'shut off the economy' n/t leftstreet Sep 2014 #19

Nor does it end capitalism. MineralMan Sep 2014 #21

If profits are eliminated/restricted..it's no longer capitalism n/t leftstreet Sep 2014 #22

Ah...eliminated, yes. Restricted, no. MineralMan Sep 2014 #26

Worker Self Directed Enterprises BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #31

OK. Here's what you do: MineralMan Sep 2014 #34

They already exist BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #36

OK. If they're such a good idea, then why hasn't MineralMan Sep 2014 #39

Lots of reasons, really. BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #43

Dude, it's already been done 2banon Sep 2014 #109

'Eliminate profits and you're out of business, pretty much' leftstreet Sep 2014 #49

Restricting or redirecting profits is more pollyanna nonsense BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #24

Not a valid comparison on so many levels. MineralMan Sep 2014 #30

LOL like God...Capitalists provide thou Lumber leftstreet Sep 2014 #47

I agree with you, but I also enjoy being challenged. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #74

Maybe something like this? Edim Sep 2014 #52

Mondragon Corp. is a Cooperative-started up in 1956 in Basque Region and is very successful today 2banon Sep 2014 #104

Hybrid socialist capitalist system such as we see in enlightned social democracies (we had it in the grahamhgreen Sep 2014 #166

You are correct BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #172

Capitalism for high competition industries (like a bunch of shoe stores) socialize anything that grahamhgreen Sep 2014 #205

+1 TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #198

One other nice thing about places like Cuba, Nye Bevan Sep 2014 #4

Better Dead than Red, eh? [n/t] Maedhros Sep 2014 #5

I love capitalism wyldwolf Sep 2014 #7

Regulated capitalism BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #9

but it doesn't have to be wyldwolf Sep 2014 #13

Doesn't have to be? BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #15

well, ok, here we go wyldwolf Sep 2014 #29

I point you to trends in the EU and US (and Canada to some extent) BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #33

I agree that "things are getting less regulated." wyldwolf Sep 2014 #37

yeah and the drive to re-regulate will be thwarted BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #40

the drive to end capitalism would be thwarted more. wyldwolf Sep 2014 #42

It is based off of historical evidence and what is currently happening. BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #44

there have been points in history where capitalism has been re-regulated. wyldwolf Sep 2014 #48

Eh, I wouldn't be too sure on dodd-frank BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #50

I'm completely sure that it regulates things that were not regulated before wyldwolf Sep 2014 #54

You need certain conditions for re-regulation to be a thing BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #64

Did you just make that list up? wyldwolf Sep 2014 #67

No that is what greatly assisted the last great reining in of capital BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #72

Link? wyldwolf Sep 2014 #76

really man? BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #128

Really man? Show us in your wiki links anything that remotely resembles what you said: wyldwolf Sep 2014 #129

Dodd-frank is not re-regulation BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #131

Did you link(s) mention Dodd Frank? This is a prime example of you avoiding the conversation wyldwolf Sep 2014 #134

YOU mentioned dodd-frank BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #136

but YOU quoted links that purported to support your position and now you refuse to quote them wyldwolf Sep 2014 #138

90% of the eight hour day link BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #141

but you gave links to support the following quote of yours: wyldwolf Sep 2014 #142

Ok: BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #145

that says nothing resembling what you said. Let me guess... you know what the writer meant to write. wyldwolf Sep 2014 #146

Uh BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #147

here's what I'm expecting your links to prove: wyldwolf Sep 2014 #148

Well my point is that BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #149

but that isn't the point you originally set out to prove wyldwolf Sep 2014 #150

yes it is? BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #151

No it isn't? wyldwolf Sep 2014 #152

Uh BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #153

uh? wyldwolf Sep 2014 #155

Yeah, so lets go back to dodd-frank shall we? BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #156

how about we stick to the subject (I don't care about social democrats in the EU) wyldwolf Sep 2014 #157

I did BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #159

you did not wyldwolf Sep 2014 #160

You cited dodd-frank as re-regulation BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #163

yes I did. wyldwolf Sep 2014 #164

Excuse me jumping in here. It's hard to find the original in this subthread. Some questions: freshwest Sep 2014 #183

Yes, all of those are regulations and re-regulations wyldwolf Sep 2014 #184

The general trajectory has not been towards increased regulation since the 80's BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #188

And that is yet a NEW argument from you in this thread. wyldwolf Sep 2014 #189

No that is a continuation of my statement that capitalism trends towards de-regulation? BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #191

where else have you said "The general trajectory has not been towards increased regulation since... wyldwolf Sep 2014 #194

...looks like this leftstreet Sep 2014 #17

You gotta unmuzzle it sometime BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #18

Then why don't you marry it? ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #77

Considering how successful my wife has been in her business I think I did Marry it wyldwolf Sep 2014 #93

Ha! nt ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #95

This. Jamaal510 Sep 2014 #175

Incoming Pollyannas BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #8

All you should need is 1 reason. Taitertots Sep 2014 #10

Very good. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #78

Just regulate it like SWEDEN! BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #11

�The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor.� ― Voltaire Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2014 #12

So WHAT if you have to keep re-regulating it! BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #14

Big One: Uncontrolled Capitalism can lead to a Dark Ages AZ Progressive Sep 2014 #25

Too late BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #27

I like Capitalism. Throd Sep 2014 #28

most people here do. wyldwolf Sep 2014 #32

Lol BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #35

Lol wyldwolf Sep 2014 #41

Could be said of every system ever BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #46

Who are you to determine what a valid argument is? wyldwolf Sep 2014 #51

Yes, people benefit from systems. BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #53

ok, sure wyldwolf Sep 2014 #56

Except I wasn't saying that a system has to be perfect BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #61

Quote the post where I said you can't criticize it wyldwolf Sep 2014 #62

If that wasn't your point BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #63

Quote the post where it was even implied wyldwolf Sep 2014 #65

Unstated conclusion in my estimation BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #71

You can't quote a post wyldwolf Sep 2014 #75

Ok BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #121

that IS my point. Why you chose to argue if for several hours is a mystery. wyldwolf Sep 2014 #123

Ok BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #124

what you're doing is refusing to accept people might actually LIKE capitalism... wyldwolf Sep 2014 #127

Incorrect BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #130

absolutely correct - the proof is in the thread wyldwolf Sep 2014 #132

What? BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #135

so that's where you're going with this? LOL wyldwolf Sep 2014 #137

Yeah I'm seriously confused. BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #139

Yes you are, we can agree on that. wyldwolf Sep 2014 #140

You won & your opponent can't admit defeat so they argue in circles. U4ikLefty Sep 2014 #167

^ this ^ defacto7 Sep 2014 #179

If you call 'winning' changing the topic and ignoring points every time he was in a corner... wyldwolf Sep 2014 #185

gross misrepresentation BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #187

perfect illustration wyldwolf Sep 2014 #190

What? BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #192

What? wyldwolf Sep 2014 #193

I'm white ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #84

I never said you had to like it. wyldwolf Sep 2014 #90

That is true. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #92

That's fair. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #81

The only problem is that capitalism just isn't that into you Taitertots Sep 2014 #82

It doesn't have to be. Throd Sep 2014 #114

If you want to claim that anything that is good is a benefit, than everything that is bad is damage Taitertots Sep 2014 #115

That assumes they would not be impoverished under alternate systems. Throd Sep 2014 #118

?? BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #120

Can't argue with that Throd Sep 2014 #125

It has an impact on the wealth disparity BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #126

Now you're talking about a certain type of Capitalism I don't support. Throd Sep 2014 #133

Yes BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #143

Billions of the world's poorest people live in capitalist countries Taitertots Sep 2014 #158

I like it too and so does President Obama. 3rdwaydem Sep 2014 #178

I'm in favor of socialism. Under socialism we'd have single payer and colleges and universities Louisiana1976 Sep 2014 #38

Tomorrow there will be people salivating over the new iPhone Dreamer Tatum Sep 2014 #45

Right now, boomers are salivating to get on Medicare leftstreet Sep 2014 #68

Toys are fun. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #86

Toys rely critically upon capitalism. Dreamer Tatum Sep 2014 #89

Sure, that could be true. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #91

Yet you mentioned how much you like toys. nt Dreamer Tatum Sep 2014 #94

I'm a fan of Market Style Socialism myself.... Xolodno Sep 2014 #55

Nice try. Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #58

I enjoy disagreement. nt ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #87

Without capitalism, there would be no righteous critiques of capitalism BeyondGeography Sep 2014 #59

Ha! nt ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #88

WORKER-OWNED CO-OPS FOREVER 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #60

Thank you... ReRe Sep 2014 #97

I am constantly amazed at how the worker-ownership silver bullet appears invisible to lefties ... 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #106

Because most people don't want, or aren't able, to run businesses. brooklynite Sep 2014 #113

I'm sure that's true for some people 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #122

I don't know, my friend... ReRe Sep 2014 #144

Hey! My wife works for one of those worker-owned co-ops....it's called a Wall Street law firm. brooklynite Sep 2014 #162

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2014 #168

No, it would not be better. Happy now? arcane1 Sep 2014 #169

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2014 #170

I guess it's because they're greedy old white guys. All four terms apply. arcane1 Sep 2014 #171

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2014 #173

You're trying too hard n/t arcane1 Sep 2014 #174

Post removed Post removed Sep 2014 #176

+100 ~nt 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #177

Too for gone TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #186

$300 Million 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #195

No, it's not "shit" TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #196

Someone apparently forgot to tell that to the people in Mondragon 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #199

Hmmmm TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #200

A Cooperative Bank 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #201

Why is is that you don't understand TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #202

"the Fed will not take big risks"? really? 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #203

That's because the crooks are giving away OUR money TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #204

That "too risky" sign hanging over the "Worker Co-op" option 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #206

sigh TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #207

Our difference 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #208

No! I am not saying they are less risky. NOT AT ALL! TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #209

Great. 99th_Monkey Sep 2014 #210

Unrestrained, unbridled growth at the expense of everything else equals cancer. kairos12 Sep 2014 #79

Excellent! defacto7 Sep 2014 #180

Capitalism is the ruler of us all. Quantess Sep 2014 #80

Excellent read! kentuck Sep 2014 #96

Capitalism must be regulated to within an inch of its life. Enthusiast Sep 2014 #98

Thank you for this thread, ZombieHorde ReRe Sep 2014 #100

Capitalism is flawed on its basic precept RoccoR5955 Sep 2014 #101

Actually, your precept is the one that's flawed. Dreamer Tatum Sep 2014 #107

Economics in general may be RoccoR5955 Sep 2014 #119

One of the highly touted defacto7 Sep 2014 #181

K&R.... daleanime Sep 2014 #165

Capitalism is a myth in a myth defacto7 Sep 2014 #182