Why am I always reminded here on DU that women can be abusive just like men?

[Rilgin]

194. Closer

Well we are getting closer. However, in no manner did I say, suggest, imply that my "solution" is to "pretend" racism doesn't exist. My solutions really come in the form of civil rights laws and judicial actions as those laws affect society over time by adding to and modifying such laws and enforcement mechanisms. This is not pretending problems do not exist. Sometimes, you need public protests and outrage to motivate public opinion.

However, you are right that I think using some labels to define generic problems like racism are wrong if they are limited to one race. Further, I think talking about "privilege" when we are really talking about bias and prejudice turns language on its head.

You do not think so. That is the great thing about opinions. They are our own. I spent a lot of time giving my reasons for thinking such terms are divisive and not effective. I can give more that might be easier to understand.

If I say crime is a problem, probably everyone in this nation will nod their heads. Crime effects everyone. However, if I or anyone were to attach the word "black" to the word "crime" as a definitional matter you and everyone on this site would question their motives for attaching the label "black" since it only identifies one race with the societal problem "crime". I am sure that no matter what was said, it would be offensive or at least uncomfortable formulation to some or all people reading it.

It would add divisiveness no matter what anyone actually would say about the subject because it is capable of hiding a lot of different attitudes and motives. The same with attaching "white" or "jewish" or "arabic" or "asian" or any other label to discuss a problem as a definitional matter that pushes characteristics on individuals by labels and not actual individual characteristics. It is not as problematic to talk about the race of a person if you are agreeing with a specific instance formulated by the person actually affected by a problem. That point should be easy to understand. Everyone has an easier time when people talk about themselves and their problems and less or a problem if someone else is talking about you.

It is easier and does not have any implications to say to a white person that black people can face institutional racism in the justice system. if you are black, you are more likely to be sentenced to a longer term. Such a discussion talks about people who are being directly and adversely affected by the disparate treatment not making conclusions about the person you are telling it to. Regardless of the societal nature or luck factors that affect a white person, it only calls on him to recognize a problem some other person is facing. It does not run any risk of minimizing his own problems in relation to that problem or impose the person to accept some other persons opinion about them. That is the problem with discussing racism as "white" privilege to people who have their own problems rather than using the term racism as it affects the people who are actually adversely affected. Again, try it someday with your wife or friends. Tell them that the problem is that "they" dint recognize how depressed you are rather than telling your wife or friend that you are depressed. One phrasing calls for empathy, the other for guilt.

With regard to your statement that "acknowledging" white privilege" is all that is required That seems pretty simplistic and actually rather offensive. So I click my heels together whenever I encounter a society problem that faces me as an individual and say three times "At least I am not black because I am a privileged white person and it would be worse if I was black". Additionally, if I hear of racial injustice facing someone else, I have to click my heals together and say " that persons problems are really not the issue. The issue is that no matter what is happening in my life, my privilege is the real issue with the problem facing him or her all because I am a privileged person because I am white". In either case, then a miracle will happen, the seas will part and racism against all people who are not me will disappear. Well maybe what you mean by that is that if every white person in the country accepted such mantras societies problems would be solved. Is that what your suggestion of acknowledgment as the solution is. At that point will the seas open? Question, at that point would every white person still be privileged? Is privilege a permanent condition or is racism and disimilar treatment something we are trying to eliminate in its entirety?

Personally, I prefer active solutions to societal problems which are not as you asserted by pretending racial injustice does not exist. To your other point, I used the word similar, not identical for a reason. Again recognizing our common humanity builds empathy. Further I think empathetic movements that define their goals broadly go much further than movements that try to set out differences. In this regard, I am thinking of our movements against the vietnam war which recognized that black or white, the war was a problem that affects us all. Civil rights laws if they are good do not stop at race but attack division and disparate treatment on race gender disability and preference. This is recognizing that prejudice against all of these groups are similar and if you are in one group and not in another you have similar problems.

I think solutions that recognize our common humanity are more effective than laws that try to institutionalize differences between people (fighting for civil rights laws that protect all and are enforced) but you can have your own opinions. I think that those laws and those fights have led to real changes in society. Not the elimination of racial injustices but real victories.

Where are opinions might meet is that for society to change it has to recognize where racism, institutional racism and racial injustices exist. I think this is clearly one of your points and I totally agree. I just disagree that we obtain the broad support by attaching labels to define societal problems generically.