General Discussion

Major Nikon

(36,925 posts)

148. Here's what I'm talking about

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 11:18 AM

Sep 2014

The so-called "viability" standard is nothing more than an idea cooked up by law clerks in the chambers of the USSC. It's no more morally or ethically defensible than tossing a dart at a gestation calendar. Some fetus will be completely healthy to full term only to die in childbirth meaning they were never actually viable. Some can be removed from their mothers at 22 weeks and live. So all that is really happening is that the state gets to arbitrarily pick a point at which the rights of a mass of cells trumps the rights of a person to make medical choices over their own body. The actual point of "viability" is when a life actually becomes viable, which is generally around the time it's actually rather than abstractly removed from its mother.

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A Fetus Is Not A Child [View all] KittyWampus Sep 2014 OP

EXCELLENT post! etherealtruth Sep 2014 #1

Call it what you want. As a matter of law, when does it acquire its right to life? badtoworse Sep 2014 #2

According to my mother, after they finish graduate school. eggplant Sep 2014 #20

legal rights don't exist for an individual until after he/she is born cali Sep 2014 #21

How do you explain the Laci Peterson Case? badtoworse Sep 2014 #59

It wasn't the court recognizing the fetus's right to life, it was how the state legislature defined Shrike47 Sep 2014 #78

Legal rights exist after birth. uppityperson Sep 2014 #28

When they can live outside the womb on their own. onecaliberal Sep 2014 #36

How about a preemie who is on a ventilator? philosslayer Sep 2014 #157

You know exactly what I meant onecaliberal Sep 2014 #173

Viability. As a matter of law. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #42

That's how it is in my state LittleBlue Sep 2014 #70

It acquires its Right to Life jbeing Sep 2014 #49

Welcome to DU, jbeing! calimary Sep 2014 #172

3rd Trimester essentially NT broadcaster75201 Sep 2014 #52

I would say when it can exist independent of the woman's body. . . n/t annabanana Sep 2014 #144

There is medical terminolgy and B2G Sep 2014 #3

probably sound biological reasons for a mother to see a fetus as a child JUST as KittyWampus Sep 2014 #5

something I wrote on another site... handmade34 Sep 2014 #4

I understand where you are coming from and it's beautifully written/expressed. KittyWampus Sep 2014 #6

I think at the point where it is reasonably expected to survive independently, outside of the womb, Nye Bevan Sep 2014 #7

No, sorry. Can no longer support that. Because the far-right uses that to try and ban late term KittyWampus Sep 2014 #10

I don't allow the right-wingers to dictate how I think about things (nt) Nye Bevan Sep 2014 #17

Women's Rights Advocates don't have the luxury of ignoring rightwing tactics or encouraging KittyWampus Sep 2014 #77

Thank you Nye Puzzledtraveller Sep 2014 #122

That would put it at about 12 or 13 Major Nikon Sep 2014 #44

You do know that "synthetic wombs" (aka artificial uteruses) do not actually exist? Nye Bevan Sep 2014 #75

They do actually exist Major Nikon Sep 2014 #109

Viability is still defined as the ability to live outside the womb. Real or artificial. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #84

There's a good reason why Ruth Bader Ginsburg now rejects viability as a meaningful standard Major Nikon Sep 2014 #110

viability is viability and that hasn't changed magically from 1973 to now... CTyankee Sep 2014 #114

No magic to it, really Major Nikon Sep 2014 #128

are you talking about babies born prematurely than can live without medical CTyankee Sep 2014 #139

Here's what I'm talking about Major Nikon Sep 2014 #148

what was not considered at the time of the Roe decision was whether science would essentially CTyankee Sep 2014 #149

No matter how it's framed it still boils down to forcing a person to be an incubator Major Nikon Sep 2014 #152

Surviving outside the womb without millions of dollars worth of technology? progressoid Sep 2014 #74

all true. the only place I disagree with you is your assertion cali Sep 2014 #8

Thank you for this and your participation in that other thread. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #9

Thank you Thank you Thank you BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #11

K & R SunSeeker Sep 2014 #12

K&R kiva Sep 2014 #13

"Why do mothers care more abou their born children than their unborn children?" HockeyMom Sep 2014 #14

Biology vs. religious beliefs. Avalux Sep 2014 #15

Not all religions conflate fetus and baby. DeadLetterOffice Sep 2014 #67

can you imagine what would happen if the legal definition procon Sep 2014 #16

K&R ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #18

Even the Bible says a fetus is not a child ErikJ Sep 2014 #19

Excellent post! Bravo! hifiguy Sep 2014 #22

I agree 100% get the red out Sep 2014 #23

With what would you specifically want to see a mugger charged with if say he punched frankieallen Sep 2014 #24

I see only one victim in that scenario--the woman. nt valerief Sep 2014 #31

This ^ PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #39

^^THIS^^^. Yes, fetal homicide laws are to punish pregnant women. nt valerief Sep 2014 #48

Should Scott Peterson have been convicted of one murder or two? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #80

one. an aggravated one. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #92

At least two crimes committed against his wife REP Sep 2014 #123

Duh, one, of course. nt valerief Sep 2014 #126

And if that same women needed a late term abortion, what specifically would you want to see her uppityperson Sep 2014 #32

"needed"..... apples and oranges as far as the scenario I posed. But to answer your frankieallen Sep 2014 #47

Thank you. Now, what if she wanted one, but not because her life was at risk? uppityperson Sep 2014 #58

please be more specific, what kind of abnormality are we talking about? frankieallen Sep 2014 #141

I thought you people were against big government, so why are you forcing the government valerief Sep 2014 #142

Did you make your reply offensive on purpose or was it just badly worded? uppityperson Sep 2014 #159

Relax, the ugly comment was in response to your poorly worded reply. Let me ask you a question frankieallen Sep 2014 #166

Yes, I can answer. uppityperson Sep 2014 #168

Apples and oranges Major Nikon Sep 2014 #161

An aggravated crime against the woman, which it is. This is a typical RW tactic. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #38

Of course an 8 month old fetus is a baby. Nye Bevan Sep 2014 #76

Fighting for Women's Reproductive Rights necessitates not calling a fetus a baby. KittyWampus Sep 2014 #81

People saying stupid things like denying that an 8-month old fetus is a baby Nye Bevan Sep 2014 #82

My position isn't stupid. I don't appreciate your calling it stupid. It's a necessity in the face KittyWampus Sep 2014 #86

It's not a baby until it's born. Neoma Sep 2014 #100

Wrong. It is a fetus. A 10 month old fetus is still a fetus. ncjustice80 Sep 2014 #88

I agree completely. newcriminal Sep 2014 #133

I was reading a story a few years ago about a young woman who died after an Rozlee Sep 2014 #25

12th week stage? not month. And yes, I have helped women who ran across those jerks also. uppityperson Sep 2014 #33

Gah! Yep, twelve weeks, not months. Rozlee Sep 2014 #35

K&R. tosh Sep 2014 #26

I still think if the mother thinks it's a child, it's a child. moriah Sep 2014 #27

My position is that the far right and their escalating tactics make using that rhetoric KittyWampus Sep 2014 #83

I understand, I just don't want to ever offend someone accidentally, and i just know.... moriah Sep 2014 #90

Agreed. People are not people until their asses need wiping. valerief Sep 2014 #29

what I've been saying for ages is that the talking point from the start should have been BlancheSplanchnik Sep 2014 #30

K&R ReRe Sep 2014 #34

Very well put! logosoco Sep 2014 #37

Roe v. Wade assumes it is jberryhill Sep 2014 #40

That's such a typical anti-choice argument. Nobody is saying it's not a 'life'. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #43

I don't see how Roe v. Wade is "anti-choice" jberryhill Sep 2014 #45

Your argument is, not Roe v Wade. NOBODY said it wasn't 'a life'. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #46

Then what difference does it make? jberryhill Sep 2014 #50

Because, what a woman does when pregnant is not "child abuse". That's what the difference is. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #51

Still doesn't make a bit of legal difference jberryhill Sep 2014 #53

The OP was in context of discussion on DU, not Podunk or the law PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #62

It adopts an anti-choice false dichotomy jberryhill Sep 2014 #136

Does a fetus being a "human life" mean it is a child? uppityperson Sep 2014 #57

I think you and I may have had this discussion before, but I've got a weird issue on intellectual... moriah Sep 2014 #99

That was well worded, good job. uppityperson Sep 2014 #104

Oh dear Rex Sep 2014 #119

I remember being aghast reading Roe v Wade, very different than I thought it was uppityperson Sep 2014 #120

I went to my own personal archives on this one-I posted about it in 2006 while pregnant w/twins. IdaBriggs Sep 2014 #41

Thank you, and this is what I mean when I refer to a fetus as a child. moriah Sep 2014 #56

I think (for us) using the "medically correct" term would have been a way of "distancing" IdaBriggs Sep 2014 #61

Thank you! VA_Jill Sep 2014 #54

So you oppose charging assailants with murder in cases closeupready Sep 2014 #55

Absolutely. Yes, it's an aggravated crime against a woman. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #63

I also believe we need to stop saying locdlib Sep 2014 #60

Why aren't the right-to-lifers railing against fertility clinics? houston_radical Sep 2014 #64

Some have, here is the Catholic Position on Fertility clinics: happyslug Sep 2014 #68

I think this is a very interesting subject. ZombieHorde Sep 2014 #65

This was honestly a good post. AverageJoe90 Sep 2014 #66

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2014 #69

I really don't think you're in a position to tell anyone here what they should post theHandpuppet Sep 2014 #71

Go be sick elsewhere. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #73

Welcome to DU. At what point in time does a fetus become a child? uppityperson Sep 2014 #79

a fetus is not a child handmade34 Sep 2014 #87

WRONG. A fetus is NOT a child. BlueCaliDem Sep 2014 #89

Who were the 5 people that voted to keep this troll's post? moriah Sep 2014 #91

my alert. not position to post results right now PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #93

The Point In Time After Which It Is A Child Is Birth.... The Magistrate Sep 2014 #94

+1 to title. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2014 #124

A fetus is made into a child by a willing mother Tumbulu Sep 2014 #96

You've got an opinion. Feral Child Sep 2014 #98

She is within TOS JustAnotherGen Sep 2014 #106

always the giver.... seabeyond Sep 2014 #107

So who gets to choose when that time is? Major Nikon Sep 2014 #112

sorry to burst mercuryblues Sep 2014 #113

No,- fetus is human tissue ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #115

4 hours mercuryblues Sep 2014 #118

I'm debating it. n/t tazkcmo Sep 2014 #131

"A Fetus Is Not A Child" rock Sep 2014 #72

I should write a book on what it's like to grow up an unwanted child! Dont call me Shirley Sep 2014 #85

you assume they care about children. they don't. PeaceNikki Sep 2014 #95

I assumed they did not care about children. I assumed they know not of care at all. Dont call me Shirley Sep 2014 #101

Stop sounding so guilty. This debate is so damned cringeworthy LittleBlue Sep 2014 #97

many many women are happy and grateful for their abortions, so NOPE. not every fetus should bettyellen Sep 2014 #103

That isn't what I'm taking about at all LittleBlue Sep 2014 #108

Nope- words are important and I agree with the OP. Maybe for some reason- given you think it is an bettyellen Sep 2014 #137

Coherent and reasoned resply, rare these days. Puzzledtraveller Sep 2014 #129

The trap not to fall into is believing the forced birthers give a shit about the fetus or the child Major Nikon Sep 2014 #132

In many ways the issue is when does a Fetus becomes a human? happyslug Sep 2014 #102

Human fetuses are human but not persons REP Sep 2014 #125

That has NOT been the law for centuries, even under Roe vs Wade. happyslug Sep 2014 #130

Great post locks Sep 2014 #105

A fetus is a reproductive product of Homo sapiens HereSince1628 Sep 2014 #111

women are moral agents and can make up their own mind about abortion.. CTyankee Sep 2014 #116

This country needs a legal definition of personhood. ncjustice80 Sep 2014 #117

To me it is, but I don't impose that on others Puzzledtraveller Sep 2014 #121

pro life would be anti war. anti death penalty. pro life would be feeding our hungry children. seabeyond Sep 2014 #127

biologically, a fetus is a parasite. niyad Sep 2014 #134

Common sense will always prevail. Once you veer too far off course when it comes ecstatic Sep 2014 #135

A fetus is a parasite. marym625 Sep 2014 #138

I think we should all start correcting anti-choicers when they talk about an "unborn child" ehrnst Sep 2014 #140

I absolutely agree. Heidi Sep 2014 #143

From the US Constitution... freebrew Sep 2014 #145

I agree with you mostly. leftyladyfrommo Sep 2014 #146

This would suggest R.Quinn Sep 2014 #153

Very good point. Thank you. riqster Sep 2014 #147

I just feel like that is a whole different ballgame. leftyladyfrommo Sep 2014 #150

Bear in mind, many locations in the USA are limiting access to birth control. riqster Sep 2014 #154

I know. leftyladyfrommo Sep 2014 #156

From the land of the Hidden. Cartoonist Sep 2014 #151

No. I understand what you are saying. leftyladyfrommo Sep 2014 #158

You know what semantics are? Calling a fetus a child but if a woman opts for a late term abortion KittyWampus Sep 2014 #160

Your post makes no earthly sense whatsoever to me. MadrasT Sep 2014 #164

Viability Cartoonist Sep 2014 #167

From the Democratic Party Platform - TBF Sep 2014 #155

PERSONHOOD ellennelle Sep 2014 #162

That isn't the question though. The question harun Sep 2014 #163

see above ellennelle Sep 2014 #165

Defined by whom? harun Sep 2014 #169

I'm old enough to remember the pre-abortion issue era.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2014 #170

Two-way street fadedrose Sep 2014 #171

Post removed Post removed Sep 2014 #174

I see what you're saying and mostly agree, Lunacee_2013 Sep 2014 #175

Post removed Post removed Sep 2014 #176