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BzaDem

(11,142 posts)

108. That is nonsense. If they all expired, a family of 4 making 20k/year would lose a 3k/year tax credit

Sun Dec 11, 2011, 05:30 PM

Dec 2011

He didn't have the choice of only extending some of them. He could extend all or none. In the middle of a recession, it would have been disastrous to allow poor families to lose thousands of dollars per year.

I have heard from some people that this amounts to "crumbs" to the poor, compared to the wealthy. Well, 3000 is a small amount compared to the tax cuts for the wealthy. But 3000 is not a "crumb" to a family of 4 at the poverty line -- it is a lifeline. It is quite strange that people are saying they won't vote for Obama from the left because he decided he couldn't let 3k/year tax credits for poor families expire in the middle of the worst recession in 70 years.

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Don't care what Rahm thinks. :) But IMHO, Trump will run Ivanka for president [View all] servermsh Feb 2021 OP

I share your concern--this needs to be flushed out. Bogart Dec 2011 #1

I SO agree. The solution is definitely to elect a Republican president! kestrel91316 Dec 2011 #66

Obama is too far to the RIGHT and you suggest we'll vote Repug ??? defendandprotect Dec 2011 #74

Hey there, stillwaiting Dec 2011 #123

I wish I could rec this intersectionality Dec 2011 #140

And I wish I could ho-hum it. Jakes Progress Dec 2011 #156

Me too! nt BlueMTexpat Dec 2011 #174

Yes, the "bully and blame the voters" is stale tblue Dec 2011 #165

+1 nt ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #210

+1 nt ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #217

+1 What you describe is something we saw conservatives do for years under GWB. DRoseDARs Dec 2011 #166

worthy of its own thread Skittles Dec 2011 #171

+1 .... Scuba Dec 2011 #178

+ a gazillion chervilant Dec 2011 #179

+1 nt ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #207

+1 n/t ejbr Dec 2011 #183

In agreement up to your last paragraph freedom fighter jh Dec 2011 #185

Not voting, is NOT an option. ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #206

Isn't it? freedom fighter jh Dec 2011 #238

If a tree falls in the forest and no one sees it....yada yada yada, signifying nothing. ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #243

So my one little vote counts but my tiny little abstention does not? freedom fighter jh Dec 2011 #274

You faith in corrupt elections is touching. The system is broken and can not be fixed by working Vincardog Dec 2011 #248

It is sad that this country has evolved into voting avebury Dec 2011 #209

+1 You must always vote. ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #213

If you are not allowed to enter a write in candidate avebury Dec 2011 #237

Totally in agreement. nt ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #245

I daresay you aren't demanding more that way. bigmonkey Dec 2011 #247

What about voting for a liberal 3rd party? Lunacee2012 Dec 2011 #282

It's not your fault, but it is your responsibillity to understand who you're voting for. Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #187

True, Obama was never a liberal Maven Dec 2011 #250

You can criticize him, just as I have done. But I think that people were expecting far too much, and Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #256

Naive? Oh No Honey HangOnKids Dec 2011 #295

Oh yes, HONEY!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #297

LOL HangOnKids Dec 2011 #303

Actually, I'm from Georgia, so that works. LOL! Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #307

One has to wonder ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #205

You're right, and yes it IS infuriating. NorthCarolina Dec 2011 #233

You need to repost this as an OP. cleanhippie Dec 2011 #318

By all Means. In fact, give up on the Democrats altogether. Ron Paul, third party, that makes sense. Capn Sunshine Dec 2011 #153

Ron Paul is NO liberal, my friend. Indeed, he is a bigot through and through. Talk about Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #258

Manipulation? pmorlan1 Dec 2011 #284

OFFS Marrah_G Dec 2011 #311

Looks like that isn't necessary. Union Scribe Dec 2011 #167

right, because there's not a dimes worth of difference between Al Gore and George Bush greenman3610 Dec 2011 #186

that dog no longer hunts Marrah_G Dec 2011 #309

I agree with you, but this isn't the only reason. ThomWV Dec 2011 #2

yes, no doubt spooked911 Dec 2011 #29

There have been many 'final straws'. Does Obama care? SammyWinstonJack Dec 2011 #151

It is...if folks think this one through.... ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #220

You have to ask yourself why Carl L. would sponsor such a bill. ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #222

I see 20 percent fact, and 80 percent "spin" in your post emulatorloo Dec 2011 #59

Are you suggesting that he didn't extend the Bush tax cuts or that they are good for the country? ThomWV Dec 2011 #100

Disingenious and hollow argument. Sheepshank Dec 2011 #103

The cost of extending unemployment was way too high. He should have reject the "deal" and turned rhett o rick Dec 2011 #143

I can only imagine the tone of your posts had Obama done just that n/t Sheepshank Dec 2011 #155

No you cant. The cost was too high. nt rhett o rick Dec 2011 #160

Sure. Had he done exactly that, people would be screaming about why he made a deal that EXCLUDED Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #188

It's the republicons moving the goal posts. rhett o rick Dec 2011 #251

hmm... chervilant Dec 2011 #180

And please explain to us polmaven Dec 2011 #191

That argument could be used to justify agreeing rhett o rick Dec 2011 #252

When the welfare polmaven Dec 2011 #268

The compromise was good for millions of unemployed granted, but the consequences probably will be rhett o rick Dec 2011 #272

Well, that is your opinion polmaven Dec 2011 #278

What are you willing to "compromise" for them this year? Don't even pretend the need is any less TheKentuckian Dec 2011 #304

You say that as if polmaven Dec 2011 #305

Actually, the Democrats DID have a stand alone unemployment extension bill. Indeed, they put at leas Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #195

If I remember correctly those votes occurred before the vote on extending the Bush rhett o rick Dec 2011 #249

Yes, but to believe that after letting the tax cuts expire, the Repukes were suddenly going to go Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #275

Yes I'm doing it on purpose - I said that in the first place ThomWV Dec 2011 #146

+1 just one of the many. ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #215

Republicans Only Respond to Pressure from People With Lots of Money AndyTiedye Dec 2011 #244

Actually, the problem wasn't a "weak-willed president." The problem was that there were Blue Dog Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #276

There is ALWAYS a fig leaf of political cover placed on acts like that. Marr Dec 2011 #270

The part where you leave out the context of the 2010 election results. The parts of the deal that emulatorloo Dec 2011 #131

Well said! One of the 99 Dec 2011 #137

Exactly. The behavior lends credence to the claim that liberals are elitists. Really, it makes us no Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #190

To tell you the truth One of the 99 Dec 2011 #208

+1 -- defendandprotect Dec 2011 #75

+1 nt ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #216

That is nonsense. If they all expired, a family of 4 making 20k/year would lose a 3k/year tax credit BzaDem Dec 2011 #108

+1 cutlassmama Dec 2011 #301

+100. robinlynne Dec 2011 #141

Extending the Bush tax cuts was only one of a multitude indepat Dec 2011 #228

"it (extending Bush tax cuts) would stop any chance of recovery the country stood" Martin Eden Dec 2011 #320

Thanks for the video on this. Hard to argue with that... KoKo Dec 2011 #3

Wow. earthside Dec 2011 #4

Pull the other leg, you weren't going to anyways, were you? Davis_X_Machina Dec 2011 #5

I have always voted Dem, but I can't see in good conscience how I can vote for Obama when he does spooked911 Dec 2011 #32

I'm voting for all the good things he HAS done. gateley Dec 2011 #105

It's funny that when it comes to Obama, it seems to be disappointment after disappointment, and Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #192

So..go ahead and get a republican in the White House. shraby Dec 2011 #6

one is already there. keep up. roguevalley Dec 2011 #56

Haha. Obama has just launched his "WAR ON RELIGION" and he murdered Santa so that gays can serve in emulatorloo Dec 2011 #61

Actually, I think Obama's presidency was the last straw which defendandprotect Dec 2011 #79

O, but chervilant Dec 2011 #182

Agreed Sherman A1 Dec 2011 #169

If we vote for candidates who trample on our core beliefs styersc Dec 2011 #57

Maybe we can get Obama to agree not to run. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #92

The truth is, it woud be hard to find an American politician in either party EFerrari Dec 2011 #7

+1000 sce56 Dec 2011 #9

Huh? nt 99th_Monkey Oct 2014 #323

+2000 GeorgeGist Oct 2014 #324

again i ask... Huh? 99th_Monkey Oct 2014 #325

Where is the post? mahina Oct 2014 #327

sad but true fishwax Dec 2011 #13

BOTH sides are for this Aerows Dec 2011 #16

+100 Xicano Dec 2011 #104

This. CrispyQ Dec 2011 #119

So the snark is to encourage people to vote for the greater of two evils? n/t Sheepshank Dec 2011 #164

+1 ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #212

They had better build a lot more prison then. I do think you are correct! btw. And can we please SammyWinstonJack Dec 2011 #152

I sadly agree, Aerows. dotymed Dec 2011 #204

+1 nt ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #218

100% correct malaise Dec 2011 #67

Entire national security state -- MIC -- has to be dismantled -- including the defendandprotect Dec 2011 #80

FDR did just that, but we liberals love and worship him! Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #198

what is going on here? Enrique Dec 2011 #8

If Obama vetoes it Aerows Dec 2011 #21

That clip ProSense Dec 2011 #10

poutrage party pooper bigtree Dec 2011 #11

I propose a new DU feature, an POUTRAGE-O-METER. Kahuna Dec 2011 #232

I was wondering where you were. Wait Wut Dec 2011 #14

The Constitution may be clear Aerows Dec 2011 #19

Wait, ProSense Dec 2011 #25

If it's BS spin Aerows Dec 2011 #39

I agree one shouldnt be able to "make up stuff", so show us where the administration says rhett o rick Dec 2011 #273

+1 however the constitution is clear and can be misconstrued only by a crooks and slick lawyers; ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #223

Great post! JoePhilly Dec 2011 #22

in that very long post, you don't explain why Levin said what he said Enrique Dec 2011 #35

Of ProSense Dec 2011 #46

Thanks for the post. It is clear that Obama wants the language strenghten to permit the indefinate rhett o rick Dec 2011 #148

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #154

His threatened veto is because the bill limits his power to fight terrorism. Show me where it says rhett o rick Dec 2011 #162

It's also 'definite'. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #260

I agree that the President wants the language "fixed" rhett o rick Dec 2011 #259

Excellent post. emulatorloo Dec 2011 #48

ProSense. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #95

Why ProSense Dec 2011 #101

Because, your long defense of Obama is extremely unclear. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #106

Wait ProSense Dec 2011 #112

What I understood from the clip is that the Obama administration requested the language JDPriestly Dec 2011 #142

What ProSense Dec 2011 #150

It's clear that the administration only objects to this bill because they THINK it restricts spooked911 Dec 2011 #181

You know ProSense Dec 2011 #199

This entire administration is an exercise in the absurd. Fuddnik Dec 2011 #227

Hmmm? ProSense Dec 2011 #253

If this is not true, why not alert on it. Rex Dec 2011 #255

Prosense. Occulus Dec 2011 #242

That ProSense Dec 2011 #254

THANK YOU. nt woo me with science Dec 2011 #107

Still pushing that blatantly dishonest spin? Easy to do WHEN YOU SELECTIVELY BOLD... Zhade Dec 2011 #99

Ah ProSense Dec 2011 #102

Good to see you on this side! ellisonz Dec 2011 #109

Amazingly insightful response...as always! tallahasseedem Dec 2011 #116

Thanks ProSense! One of the 99 Dec 2011 #138

So glad you're here, Prosense Number23 Dec 2011 #139

Glad you're still around... redqueen Dec 2011 #291

"When the NDAA passes and is vetoed by President Obama..." Ignis Dec 2011 #316

All well and good, but Owlet Dec 2011 #12

I love that DURecs are completely transparent now...nt SidDithers Dec 2011 #15

yep. It'll be the same 20 haters every time. MjolnirTime Dec 2011 #18

This message was self-deleted by its author Tesha Dec 2011 #26

"Obama cheerleader" was allowed to stand. LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #30

This message was self-deleted by its author Tesha Dec 2011 #33

Ditto K&R unapatriciated Dec 2011 #170

Are you assuming people only "rec" topics they agree with? jtrockville Dec 2011 #65

"20 haters" of what? AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2011 #70

"20 haters" .... ???? hmmm.... defendandprotect Dec 2011 #83

looks like there is way more than 20 Skittles Dec 2011 #172

so there's one hundred. it's the same names again and again. MjolnirTime Dec 2011 #308

aw, poor baby Skittles Dec 2011 #310

seeing who recs is a good thing MjolnirTime Dec 2011 #312

Monday morning it is at 74 recs Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #189

You got that right. It will soon become even more apparent who is working overtime Number23 Dec 2011 #269

Why would you be so interested in that? boston bean Dec 2011 #36

It really tells me who DUrecs threads like this... SidDithers Dec 2011 #37

And does that give you some sort of insight into individual posters? boston bean Dec 2011 #38

I don't have political enemies... SidDithers Dec 2011 #42

And will you use that information boston bean Dec 2011 #45

No I won't... SidDithers Dec 2011 #49

Well, you were quite off topic for the thread in your reply. boston bean Dec 2011 #52

"Off-Topic" is only germane to the Original Post of the thread, not posts within the thread...nt SidDithers Dec 2011 #54

Well, it made me wonder why you wrote what you wrote, that is all. boston bean Dec 2011 #55

Interesting discussion. nt Skip Intro Dec 2011 #122

Very Interesting Post indeed! mrdmk Dec 2011 #158

I agree with you Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #193

I look at it differently. unapatriciated Dec 2011 #176

OMG!!! chervilant Dec 2011 #184

If you're keeping a list, add me to it. AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2011 #98

He can add me as well. unapatriciated Dec 2011 #173

I'm loving the new transparency. Grateful for Hope Dec 2011 #53

yup. lol dionysus Dec 2011 #64

lol LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #78

Why? The same mentality as those supporting this bill, eh? Send them to Gitmo, ask questions later.. sadge goddess Dec 2011 #115

that is disturbing and I could think of more. But the thought of President Gingrich would convince Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #17

The devil would probably be a better leader than Gingrich. Aerows Dec 2011 #23

Same here Doctor_J Dec 2011 #34

Stop and think where that has taken the party and the Congress defendandprotect Dec 2011 #87

but there is no choice - there is not going to be a true liberal as a viable candidate in 2012 Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #96

Then mission accomplished! OMG! sadge goddess Dec 2011 #117

if we are going to make Nazi comparisons - then those who didn't unite around the strongest candidat Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #118

I won't make that comparison but as for it defying reason, not so fast there... sadge goddess Dec 2011 #120

and the election of Newt Gingrich would be an enormous step in that direction Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #130

Hell to the no! I am OVER sadge goddess Dec 2011 #132

I felt that way in 1980 and voted for Barry Commoner of the Citizens Party rather than Jimmy Carter Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #134

I don't know what we are now allowed to say here so I am very wary of asking you more info sadge goddess Dec 2011 #136

Exactly! I made this mistake twice, voting for Nader in 1996 and 2000. It didn't matter that I live Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #201

Hold your nose. wtmusic Dec 2011 #20

I don't think the Constitution can be overridden by legislation. MH1 Dec 2011 #24

Good post, thank you emulatorloo Dec 2011 #60

some years ago living in Moab UT newspeak Dec 2011 #234

'if' ??? spanone Dec 2011 #27

I used to take your position up until about two days ago. Then, as it coalition_unwilling Dec 2011 #28

Is it just me Aerows Dec 2011 #40

I echo what ProSense has said. boxman15 Dec 2011 #31

Maybe but it misses the offered point that the President like other before him may be TheKentuckian Dec 2011 #280

This message was self-deleted by its author maximusveritas Dec 2011 #41

so vote for newt-romney demtenjeep Dec 2011 #43

I look for Newt to pick Dan Burton B Calm Dec 2011 #47

Nation is crying out for a democratic liberal NOT a move to the RIGHT defendandprotect Dec 2011 #89

Sigh. New site. Same tired deflections. nt Union Scribe Dec 2011 #168

Why should U.S. citizens be exempt? Capitalocracy Dec 2011 #44

Good question. Kaleko Dec 2011 #110

The devil's advocate part was saying why should U.S. citizens be exempt Capitalocracy Dec 2011 #114

Just out of curiosity bondwooley Oct 2014 #322

So, after the inevitable "compromise" will the govenment have the power to indefinitely detain? Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #50

It's looking that way. Occulus Dec 2011 #51

The food fight about who to blame is not very critical TheKentuckian Dec 2011 #62

Well said. The real issue is whether our government can exert tyrannical power of it's people. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #63

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2011 #72

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2011 #77

I acknowledge your capitulation to my argument Anatos Dec 2011 #229

Life sucks, for sure. Anatos Dec 2011 #71

Are they "accountable" after the fact? Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #82

We are discussing Obama, not Bush. Anatos Dec 2011 #226

W are discussing accountability. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #236

Exactly Anatos Dec 2011 #266

That snark 'life sucks'? Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #197

My response Anatos Dec 2011 #230

Bravo. nm rhett o rick Dec 2011 #144

This message was self-deleted by its author mvd Dec 2011 #58

This message was self-deleted by its author pa28 Oct 2014 #321

If you can't vote for Obama Anatos Dec 2011 #68

I can't vote for Obama in 2012. Occulus Dec 2011 #161

Thank you. unapatriciated Dec 2011 #177

In the past Anatos Dec 2011 #231

Well I'm not ready to turn my card in and will leave you with this link. unapatriciated Dec 2011 #240

I have no problem with the ACLU Anatos Dec 2011 #262

I've written my congressman... unapatriciated Dec 2011 #279

As well you should Anatos Dec 2011 #285

I don't think it is I who is doing the "sloppy thinking". unapatriciated Dec 2011 #289

Of course you don't Anatos Dec 2011 #298

again with the name calling. unapatriciated Dec 2011 #302

again with the weak response Anatos Dec 2011 #314

lol Love your new math. unapatriciated Dec 2011 #315

There was no math. D'oh! Anatos Dec 2011 #319

Oh my Anatos Dec 2011 #224

I suggest you read more. Occulus Dec 2011 #239

feel free Anatos Dec 2011 #263

Wow indepat Dec 2011 #235

I'm not sure Anatos Dec 2011 #287

It is not terrorism that is "cockamamie bullshit," it is the erosion of constitutional protections indepat Dec 2011 #290

I understand Anatos Dec 2011 #299

It is NOT good sense to not vote at all. That is a shocking thing to say. Demit Dec 2011 #214

Many true things are shocking Anatos Dec 2011 #288

It is *precisely* in the act of voting that I exercise my responsibility as a citizen, Demit Dec 2011 #300

In a purely imaginary way, perhaps Anatos Dec 2011 #313

who else are you going to vote for? Gingrich? Liberal_in_LA Dec 2011 #69

I think it's a pretty safe assumtion that no one is voting for Gingrich. Fearless Dec 2011 #73

Btw, THANK YOU ... didn't know about this -- sad -- !! defendandprotect Dec 2011 #76

"If this is true, won't support"->"bad judgment" gulliver Dec 2011 #81

Sorry, but Im pretty sure this has to do with NDAA 1031 not election suppression. n/t teddy51 Dec 2011 #84

It doesn't matter. Presidential elections are not decided by who votes for whom. Beam Me Up Dec 2011 #85

You.. sendero Dec 2011 #121

Way too much misinformation on this bill... bhikkhu Dec 2011 #86

Glenn Greenwald is a Constitutional Lawyer and he read it.... Said it was "more of the same" as KoKo Dec 2011 #125

Do you have something on this bill that proves that it isn't as bad as it appears? I would like to teddy51 Dec 2011 #88

Why not? They voted for war in Iraq - Patriot Act - Homeland Security! defendandprotect Dec 2011 #91

Thats true, but I sure hope they are smarter than voting on a bill with the ability teddy51 Dec 2011 #93

"teddy 51" most of them are KoKo Dec 2011 #128

so that's enough for you to prefer a Republican in the White House? hfojvt Dec 2011 #90

That's messed up! Odin2005 Dec 2011 #94

So, if the President vetos the legislation, he has your mzmolly Dec 2011 #97

If he doesn't, as promised, he won't have mine. joshcryer Dec 2011 #127

My question was if he does, mzmolly Dec 2011 #157

I've defended him pretty strongly, but this would be a very strong flip. joshcryer Dec 2011 #163

I ran into to the same wall in 2008 when he said he'd escalate the lost war in Afghanistan. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #111

The Obameter: Tracking Obama's Campaign Promises emulatorloo Dec 2011 #135

Are you for real? The president has kept a long list of promises. Your disdain for him will Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #202

I still think Obama ... GeorgeGist Dec 2011 #113

Sheesh....some of the replies seem like KoKo Dec 2011 #124

No, the President thinks he already has non-citizen detention ability. joshcryer Dec 2011 #126

Josh...the President should be in control of our Military. (Commander in Chief) KoKo Dec 2011 #129

Right, because any Republican has to be better than Obama. pnwmom Dec 2011 #133

Obviously you should vote for a Republican instead. n/t Lil Missy Dec 2011 #145

I still can. bonzotex Dec 2011 #147

Democratic President and a Democratically controlled Senate TheKentuckian Dec 2011 #281

What choice do I have? Texasgal Dec 2011 #149

Let us know when you find out that it IS true. CakeGrrl Dec 2011 #159

Overreaction. We don't need people out helping the Republicans. RBInMaine Dec 2011 #175

Why are you afraid to suport a fair trial using centuries old constitutional safeguards? scentopine Dec 2011 #196

Obama thinks he has this one in the bag, so he'll continue to pander to his republican base... scentopine Dec 2011 #194

Really? You've been able to see what's going on in his mind? That's mighty arrogant Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #203

I woke up late...is this another one of those "cut off your nose to spite your face" threads? Walk away Dec 2011 #200

Obama is scuttling constitutional safeguards that separate us from 3rd world despot oligarchy scentopine Dec 2011 #283

Indeed, if this is true and this becomes law ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #211

I really wish you would have given more information about this clip so that we could easily find Bolo Boffin Dec 2011 #219

I don't know yet what is going on here. Vattel Dec 2011 #221

i'm mixed on this one, it has the potential to be abused. okieinpain Dec 2011 #225

Day One OVERPAID01 Dec 2011 #241

If a Rethug becomes our next president as a result of the left splitting its vote ... Martin Eden Dec 2011 #246

Perhaps Obama should seek the votes of the left instead of pandering to the "middle". Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #257

Still out of joint, I see. Martin Eden Dec 2011 #264

Really? My single vote will swing the election? Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #265

Sorry, I didn't realize you were the only one on the left ... Martin Eden Dec 2011 #267

What... you think seeing what almost happened in France, and what is happening in Canada redqueen Dec 2011 #292

Making good decisions comes from experience ... Martin Eden Dec 2011 #296

How would a republican president be worse? bowens43 Dec 2011 #306

You're kidding, right? Martin Eden Dec 2011 #317

Now can you see how you'd vote for him? ClassWarrior Dec 2011 #261

that's fucked up but i'll still vote for him because arely staircase Dec 2011 #271

I wish I could vote none of the above .... littlewolf Dec 2011 #277

So don't then. yellowcanine Dec 2011 #286

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #293

OK, you convinced me. Old and In the Way Dec 2011 #294

I don't see how I could vote for him in November 2012 Jamastiene Oct 2014 #326