General Discussion

xocet

(4,348 posts)

267. Only a pair...?

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 12:08 AM

Sep 2014

One takes 4 + 3 = 7 as given and the (implicit) definition of the additive group of integers:

1) 4 = 7 - 3
2) 3 = 7 - 4
3) 0 = 7 - (4 + 3) = 7 - 7

and then from the group definition

0 = k + (-k), for all k that are integers

becomes

0 = k - k, for all integers k, which could be interpreted as a subtraction sentence.

Can one not argue that once one has the identity element of the group from the original sentence one can extend the initial equation to the whole of the group of integers?

If so, then would it be proper to say that the equation 4 + 3 = 7 is equivalent to a countable infinity of subtraction sentences via the identity axiom?

As far as I know, this is correct, but it has been a while, so I would definitely be interested in your thoughts on the above argument.

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How would you answer this test question? From a 1st grade Common Core test. [View all] madfloridian Sep 2014 OP

Like this: Iggo Sep 2014 #1

Here's an even CRAZIER example. Try this one. pnwmom Sep 2014 #275

Exactly! Sancho Sep 2014 #308

Critical thinking is ambiguous, hence the test would have to be ambiguous, AND orpupilofnature57 Sep 2014 #426

Actually, there are plenty of ways to study and teach critical thinking, creating thinking... Sancho Sep 2014 #435

How about Perspicacity? a word so descriptive and never used . orpupilofnature57 Sep 2014 #436

Perspicacity is one descriptor, but not a theory based on observation, research, or measurement. Sancho Sep 2014 #437

Thank you . orpupilofnature57 Sep 2014 #439

"...And so the I'm-bad-at-math game begins!" BuelahWitch Sep 2014 #315

I have one child who LOVED math and I am so glad pnwmom Sep 2014 #317

Thanks for sharing that example. madfloridian Sep 2014 #371

Did you notice the young perky blonde teacher using the word "algorithm" to her truedelphi Sep 2014 #432

When I commented (below) that it was an extremely poorly written test - Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #402

My guess would be B. Subtraction sentence? This isn't grammar, it's math. Common Core doesn't Louisiana1976 Sep 2014 #2

B is not subtraction. madfloridian Sep 2014 #4

Neither is A, C, or D. Curmudgeoness Sep 2014 #10

Exactly. madfloridian Sep 2014 #11

Yep. That's an addition problem. SheilaT Sep 2014 #41

Clearly, if one holds a open flame below possible answer D), answer E) "None of the above" appears. xocet Sep 2014 #277

..... madfloridian Sep 2014 #361

Did you count correctly? Skidmore Sep 2014 #8

This isn't "Common Core." LWolf Sep 2014 #174

This is true, to a point. The whole testing regime FlatStanley Sep 2014 #376

The whole testing regime LWolf Sep 2014 #387

Thats on a standardized test? WTF? SummerSnow Sep 2014 #3

Does it say it's a standardized test? Igel Sep 2014 #64

Watch the video. madfloridian Sep 2014 #76

The video does not explain where the question came from. Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #124

Here are 2 pages of that test. States it is from Pearson. It is a practice page, test prep madfloridian Sep 2014 #373

Thanks. I would not assume that it is an accurate reflection Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #384

Pearson is writing the whole damn test for many states. There should be no errors. madfloridian Sep 2014 #386

That is really sad. Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #396

On top of everything else, Pearson has been getting gag orders pnwmom Sep 2014 #403

I don't know how the questions are used - Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #404

Yes, they have their justifications -- but the bottom line is that there can be many poorly designed pnwmom Sep 2014 #405

If it is purely a copyright issue, Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #408

Didn't watch the video, did you? Not a teacher or an educator either I presume. sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #406

C is the only one that corresponds to the illustration rocktivity Sep 2014 #5

C is not subtraction. madfloridian Sep 2014 #9

Apparently, subtraction doesn't exist anymore rocktivity Sep 2014 #17

I did that wayyyyy back in school, tried to teach my classmates and got in trouble with the teacher uppityperson Sep 2014 #20

Exactly!!!! sammytko Sep 2014 #390

Sorry - Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #407

And in this Number Family, daddy beat the shit out of Mommy... Atman Sep 2014 #32

But which train got there first? WinkyDink Sep 2014 #34

The one from Chicago. Atman Sep 2014 #36

DUZY! n/t DebJ Sep 2014 #225

MEANWHILE, EVERY OTHER SUBJECT ESCHEWS ACTUAL FACTS!! Irony, thy name is Common Core. WinkyDink Sep 2014 #33

Huh? Is a subtraction sentence the same as a COBOL sentence? nt valerief Sep 2014 #40

Well, yes, actually, thanks to the Turing-Church thesis and Goedel Recursion Sep 2014 #212

They're inverse operations. Igel Sep 2014 #78

Which is why we need this taught at the elementary level Recursion Sep 2014 #216

This particular question is not testing whether students understand the concept Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #401

"number fact" is key to seeing this............ wandy Sep 2014 #90

Your final sentence is better because the "correct" way is simply wrong. It's not a subtraction pnwmom Sep 2014 #271

About damn time Recursion Sep 2014 #214

I think what we are seeing here is ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2014 #358

Wrong. I taught "new" math "old" math for decades. madfloridian Sep 2014 #397

With all due respect ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2014 #398

Tell that to the districts and feds that keep calling what is old as new. madfloridian Sep 2014 #399

Not correct. Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #409

I completely agree ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2014 #414

And, unfortunately, in math and science Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #415

I guess that is the point I was trying to make ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2014 #416

With math (and to a lesser extent science), Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #420

But we should stop this discussion ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2014 #422

That is old old math dressed up as new math. We taught that for years. Number families. madfloridian Sep 2014 #245

That is a brilliant post. joshcryer Sep 2014 #309

Oh my God of course it is Recursion Sep 2014 #211

The SUBTRACTION equivalent to 4+3=7 would have a minus sign. madfloridian Sep 2014 #215

4 + 3 = 7 is equivalent to a pair of subtraction sentences Recursion Sep 2014 #217

They asked for a subtraction equivalent, there is not one there. madfloridian Sep 2014 #219

Then why are you acting like "4 + 3 = 7" doesn't express a subtractive identity? Recursion Sep 2014 #223

First off we're talking about 5-7 year old kids in American schools azurnoir Sep 2014 #244

About a third of the kids I've tutored (generally 8 - 10 years old) were taught to do that Recursion Sep 2014 #248

again kids you're tutoring azurnoir Sep 2014 #251

Yes, it was in the schools in my neighborhood in DC Recursion Sep 2014 #252

How recently was this? this year last year? azurnoir Sep 2014 #256

from, oh, 2009 to 2013 the most recent time Recursion Sep 2014 #258

so from 2004 they were teaching kids to think of numbers in this manner? azurnoir Sep 2014 #261

I was tutoring older kids then; this experience was from last year Recursion Sep 2014 #262

It isn't that it is clunky Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #411

Only a pair...? xocet Sep 2014 #267

And a first grader could think through this process? DebJ Sep 2014 #272

Of course not. I was just asking the other poster about the earlier claim. xocet Sep 2014 #279

Whew. Thanks. Given some of the other comments, I wasn't sure what you DebJ Sep 2014 #281

Hey, no problem. Education is important, and reading this thread has been very interesting. n/t xocet Sep 2014 #290

You're even more creative than I was! Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #412

You can create 4 related subtraction sentences. Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #410

But how were the other groups of numbers not also part of the subtraction method?? - truedelphi Sep 2014 #434

None of them are. They're not sentences either. JVS Sep 2014 #297

..... madfloridian Sep 2014 #299

Subtraction can be seen as a form of addition if you consider negative numbers karynnj Sep 2014 #385

First grade? (Must be the topics covered in April or May, well after everyone saw Spot run) . . . Journeyman Sep 2014 #6

I'm pretty sure that 95% of them just take a guess. Art_from_Ark Sep 2014 #316

Assuming this is English, I'd say, "None of the above." immoderate Sep 2014 #7

I'd say, "Subtract THIS." WinkyDink Sep 2014 #37

people jumped down my throat for pointing out that Common Core math is funky Man from Pickens Sep 2014 #84

"Kids aren't learning" Recursion Sep 2014 #241

dumbing down the test does not indicate increased learning Man from Pickens Sep 2014 #285

Writing scores are much, much higher today than 20 years ago Recursion Sep 2014 #289

Something is odd in those numbers Man from Pickens Sep 2014 #360

Because the race/ethnicity breakdown is an improper partition Recursion Sep 2014 #374

Part of common core was trying to deal with people like me. jeff47 Sep 2014 #381

Great post thank you. madfloridian Sep 2014 #400

I would answer it how the kid answered it on the test gollygee Sep 2014 #12

Well, subtraction is taught in the classroom as the opposite of addition. madfloridian Sep 2014 #14

Yeah but I think it's a typo gollygee Sep 2014 #15

It's testing problem. By some company that is making millions of education. madfloridian Sep 2014 #22

DING DING DING! Madfloridian, you're our grand prize winner! rocktivity Sep 2014 #26

Are you sure that you applied the rubric correctly in scoring that? xocet Sep 2014 #304

Companies made money off the old system of testing and teaching too. gollygee Sep 2014 #42

That was once or twice a year and did not determine a child's future. madfloridian Sep 2014 #44

I'm opposed to tests being used in that way gollygee Sep 2014 #46

I expressly said I was not against standards, just the way they are tested. madfloridian Sep 2014 #49

You used what looks like a typo as an example gollygee Sep 2014 #55

Did you watch the video? madfloridian Sep 2014 #57

Yes gollygee Sep 2014 #58

How are kids supposed to get an answer right if the testers can't get the valerief Sep 2014 #82

Yeah well the proofreaders are an issue gollygee Sep 2014 #98

Where was the typo? What I saw was an awful, disastrous and confusing attempt to sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #104

Read the subthread before responding gollygee Sep 2014 #106

I have read the subthread and see that two people, MF and Rocktivity got it right. sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #113

There still is no national standardized testing until 3rd grade. kwassa Sep 2014 #180

Are you trying to tell us that NCLB or Common Core is optional? Tell that to the teachers sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #221

The districts my kids have attended in do pre-tests in kindergarden, first, and second grades azurnoir Sep 2014 #250

I agree that this is all about profits for the testing corporations. Same with mass drug testing.n/t pnwmom Sep 2014 #210

Yes, exactly. Drug testing has made some people obscenely wealthy. As has NCLB/Common Core or sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #231

I realized I forgot one other reason. They want to prove the public schools pnwmom Sep 2014 #269

Yes, absolutely. Privatization of everything, education, SS, all of these programs sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #341

Well said and +1! Enthusiast Sep 2014 #312

Not 'understand', memorize the 'rules'. That is not understanding math. It is worse than sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #73

Obviously, I can't do math. Curmudgeoness Sep 2014 #13

Are we allowed to say "this is a very bad question"? muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #16

Yes, yes indeed they would in fact be that proscriptive about illustration. DeadLetterOffice Sep 2014 #185

All of the options are sentences; Common Core doesn't address testing Recursion Sep 2014 #228

As I said in #153, 'sentence' appears to be new jargon muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #310

That's ridiculous Recursion Sep 2014 #322

And yet, many DUers haven't heard it, and neither have those reference books muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #330

Well it's new jargon gollygee Sep 2014 #353

They are sentences Ms. Toad Sep 2014 #413

My answer would be...When's recess? Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2014 #18

"hire a better editor/proofreader" justabob Sep 2014 #19

I believe the low quality may be deliberate Man from Pickens Sep 2014 #95

whether deliberate, or simply incompetent justabob Sep 2014 #103

Subtraction sentence? sakabatou Sep 2014 #21

seems like an odd question for a math test hfojvt Sep 2014 #23

Thank GOODness for Carol Burris (again!) elleng Sep 2014 #24

She is very impressive and intelligent in that video. madfloridian Sep 2014 #54

Yes she is, elleng Sep 2014 #130

ONCE AGAIN, Common Core is ONLY about selling common text books to a mass market. Atman Sep 2014 #25

very plausible. nt navarth Sep 2014 #139

There's nothing wrong with this. It's just out of context. nolabear Sep 2014 #27

Me either... Tikki Sep 2014 #28

Absurd. Atman Sep 2014 #29

Thank you, yes, it's a travesty. madfloridian Sep 2014 #45

But perhaps not if you had been in the class. nolabear Sep 2014 #83

Do you not see how confusing this might be to a child who at some point in the future chervilant Sep 2014 #160

What's wrong with associating the plus sign with subtraction? Recursion Sep 2014 #226

What I want to see in 15 years, though, is will these kids know if they get the right change back DebJ Sep 2014 #239

You don't count change *up* from the purchase price? Recursion Sep 2014 #240

Doesn't matter if it is 'up' or 'down', the point is, DebJ Sep 2014 #249

Excellent point. chervilant Sep 2014 #356

The problem with your approach is people like me. jeff47 Sep 2014 #382

Of course, everyone's brain works a bit differently from everyone else's. DebJ Sep 2014 #388

The goal, IMO, should be to understand why it's the right answer jeff47 Sep 2014 #389

From what I've seen tutoring, chervilant Sep 2014 #331

+1 laundry_queen Sep 2014 #86

Yes! It is not a valid question! n/t callous taoboy Sep 2014 #140

Whats absurd is the pretense that common core standards made this test question mandatory Egnever Sep 2014 #188

Subtraction is addition. In fact, addition of unknowns is a better way to do subtraction problems. Recursion Sep 2014 #205

The kids you teach are lucky Egnever Sep 2014 #362

OK, I'll say it: this looks to me like potentially quite a good approach to teaching. Donald Ian Rankin Sep 2014 #305

What context is there for calling addition subtraction? DireStrike Sep 2014 #75

"related"... Tikki Sep 2014 #94

Why not just use the word "addition" instead of "related subtraction"? DireStrike Sep 2014 #97

In some grades they will be taught straight math language and in other grades they start the brain.. Tikki Sep 2014 #101

Except the same test, page 2, uses the standard definition for a subtraction sentence. pnwmom Sep 2014 #300

"Addition fact" would make it a valid question for this grade level. callous taoboy Sep 2014 #142

subtraction can be expressed as addition with a negative number. Warren Stupidity Sep 2014 #165

Not applicable to the question and answers being discussed Dragonfli Sep 2014 #197

I was responding to the post asking how addition and subtraction could be conflated. Warren Stupidity Sep 2014 #327

Looking at it again and reading elsewhere, it's clearly a typo. nolabear Sep 2014 #92

Watching the video I'm leaning towards a typo now too, though I've tutored kids who are taught Recursion Sep 2014 #238

Page three of the homework has a similar thing: joshcryer Sep 2014 #333

There is no correct answer here, but you choose the best answer available itsrobert Sep 2014 #30

So the "best answer available" is a wrong one? That is NOT okay. madfloridian Sep 2014 #56

In life, the correct answer is not always there for you. itsrobert Sep 2014 #91

Now that response is the best I ever heard. No correct answer, just make do. LOL madfloridian Sep 2014 #96

No shit! Suck it up, first grader new to math newbie loser :/ callous taoboy Sep 2014 #143

That statement is supposed to have added to it: EXCEPT MATH. DebJ Sep 2014 #232

But this is a test, you know, something that is supposedly 100% accurate. Rex Sep 2014 #440

Kind of like a US election, in other words IDemo Sep 2014 #65

IDGI. Are we supposed to look at the bar and see 4 filled-in squares and 3 not, to get (C.)? WinkyDink Sep 2014 #31

Which is why the country should have adopted Mass' framework and test MannyGoldstein Sep 2014 #35

and Gates Foundation had already screwed up with the untested New Schools Initiative zazen Sep 2014 #110

1st Grade? Do 1st graders even understand the words in the question and what the sentence actually madinmaryland Sep 2014 #38

Yes they do and if they don't, at least where I live, there is a tiered Kindergarten and an... Tikki Sep 2014 #184

That's the language they're taught with gollygee Sep 2014 #195

If Noah built an ark 300 cubits by 50 cubits, how many dinosaurs would fit on the Promanade Deck? Atman Sep 2014 #39

Trick question. It's Promenade. nt valerief Sep 2014 #47

We're targeting future Tea Partiers.. IDemo Sep 2014 #69

My bad. If that's the case, then I know the answer. valerief Sep 2014 #87

"How many brains does a moran got?" Atman Sep 2014 #107

A Repubican would never write "gub'mit." S/he'd write "govrement." nt valerief Sep 2014 #123

Benghazi! That's the answer to every question. n/t DebJ Sep 2014 #236

A+ Johnny. Atman Sep 2014 #105

makes perfect sense to me. mopinko Sep 2014 #43

I taught number families. I never misrepresented subtraction as addition. madfloridian Sep 2014 #52

The words "George Orwell" keep flashing in my brain. n /t DebJ Sep 2014 #243

Wow, this one really drew the supporters of "reform". Support anything madfloridian opposes. madfloridian Sep 2014 #48

SInce you oppose everything that is whistler162 Sep 2014 #438

The correct answer, of course, is C. MineralMan Sep 2014 #50

Oh, come on now. It asks for a subtraction sentence. There are none. madfloridian Sep 2014 #51

No, it asks which is an equivalent subtraction sentence. MineralMan Sep 2014 #68

Oh, gee, that is way above my level of understanding. madfloridian Sep 2014 #71

Perhaps it is. I'd have no way of knowing. MineralMan Sep 2014 #175

FYI...my kid is taught two strategies (at least) per math concept. It's a way msanthrope Sep 2014 #282

I think that's very good. MineralMan Sep 2014 #337

That's what I think many critics of Common Core get stuck on--at least, from the critiques msanthrope Sep 2014 #340

Well, some people see Common Core as one more step MineralMan Sep 2014 #357

It asks for a subtraction sentence. It does not present any. immoderate Sep 2014 #100

it is a typo dude questionseverything Sep 2014 #118

Check out the article Lonusca Sep 2014 #159

It makes perfect sense to me. jen63 Sep 2014 #122

It asks which is "a related subtraction sentence", not "related to a relevant subtraction sentence" muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #153

It clearly asked for a "related subtraction sentence". CANDO Sep 2014 #79

Okay then. madfloridian Sep 2014 #80

I undertsand your frustration. CANDO Sep 2014 #89

I taught new math, old math, then new math again. Please do not talk down to me. madfloridian Sep 2014 #99

Not talking down to you. CANDO Sep 2014 #109

They should then have asked for an answer related to same number family. madfloridian Sep 2014 #137

Madfloridian: You understand young kids. Case closed. callous taoboy Sep 2014 #149

Maybe the kids are conditioned enough to tests... TygrBright Sep 2014 #163

Schools use the blocks pictured every day in school these days gollygee Sep 2014 #173

So? None of the equations constituted a subtraction sentence. nt pnwmom Sep 2014 #209

Yes, and as a number of people said, that appeared to be a typo gollygee Sep 2014 #218

Stupid question. None of the equations constitute a "subtraction sentence." pnwmom Sep 2014 #207

C is the correct answer Lil Missy Sep 2014 #53

Wrong. C is not a subtraction sentence; it is an addition sentence. pnwmom Sep 2014 #213

And the monkey wrapped his tail around the pole ....... Lil Missy Sep 2014 #230

It's about teaching critical thinking. CANDO Sep 2014 #59

It asks specifically for a subtraction problem. madfloridian Sep 2014 #62

No. It asked for a "related subtraction sentence". CANDO Sep 2014 #85

" It is an obvious semi-trick question to get students to T H I N K." madfloridian Sep 2014 #88

It teaches them to realize that they must understand the specific jargon, and when new standards and DebJ Sep 2014 #242

Especially bunk for a first grader n/t BuelahWitch Sep 2014 #319

I wasn't stumped by the equation. I was stumped by the phrasing of the question. magical thyme Sep 2014 #72

A critical thinking question based on the picture might look like this DireStrike Sep 2014 #81

See my posts on "related subtraction sentence". CANDO Sep 2014 #102

It depends what is being taught and at what level DireStrike Sep 2014 #112

Well said. And I wonder if the implementation process is the same in other areas DebJ Sep 2014 #253

I think there's a grammatical problem. The phrase is suffering from a modifier traffic jam RufusTFirefly Sep 2014 #147

You are aware that children this age don't "think" the way adults do? Sancho Sep 2014 #227

Wait a minute, you mean teaching involves little human beings? Not widgets? n/t DebJ Sep 2014 #270

Yep! Sancho Sep 2014 #307

Whoever gave 5th rec...thanks. But now I am in the wrong for saying the item is faulty. madfloridian Sep 2014 #60

And are you sure it was indeed the fifth rec? truedelphi Sep 2014 #433

My 2nd graders knew the difference between addition and subtraction. madfloridian Sep 2014 #61

Then they are wrong. This test insures that kids do NOT know the difference which must be the goal. Kablooie Sep 2014 #70

Amazing. I am wrong. 2nd graders are wrong. Yet there is still no minus sign. madfloridian Sep 2014 #93

Just shows that your kids are smarter than the people who devised the common core test. Kablooie Sep 2014 #119

There is a "common core test"? Recursion Sep 2014 #254

I also teach 2nd grade: It's a poorly worded question, i.e. not valid: callous taoboy Sep 2014 #132

You do all realize the children are taught this first 4dsc Sep 2014 #63

Yes, I am often called simple-minded here. madfloridian Sep 2014 #66

How are they taught this. Do elucidate. callous taoboy Sep 2014 #134

Like this Egnever Sep 2014 #191

And of course they have done extensive work with small numbers in first grade???? DebJ Sep 2014 #257

Yeah, a lot of people seem to forget this is a question for first graders...n/t BuelahWitch Sep 2014 #392

Even my privately schooled pecwae Oct 2014 #447

You are wrong about students being taught "like this".... Sancho Sep 2014 #323

Wish I could recommend this a thousand times adigal Sep 2014 #363

The question is not a valid one. callous taoboy Sep 2014 #359

Tell that to my elementary school kid. DeadLetterOffice Sep 2014 #186

The answer is no. "Which" is a word, not a sentence. Kablooie Sep 2014 #67

So now we have come to calling retired teachers simple-minded.... madfloridian Sep 2014 #74

Yes, there should be standards, but the common core is proving to be an overreach. Plain and simple. RBInMaine Sep 2014 #77

Last week I was substitute teaching 3rd grade LibDemAlways Sep 2014 #108

"pulling the numbers apart"... thesquanderer Sep 2014 #133

Ding ding ding ding.... callous taoboy Sep 2014 #138

Except when borrowing or as it's called nowadays LibDemAlways Sep 2014 #151

No need to "regroup" when callous taoboy Sep 2014 #166

Here's how I'd do it in my head thesquanderer Sep 2014 #167

That strikes me as a lot of steps. Instead of LibDemAlways Sep 2014 #169

And I agree. I had second graders in regular ed. callous taoboy Sep 2014 #170

Exactly! BECAUSE IT IS ON THE TEST. Not because it is helpful to them, or necessary to learn, DebJ Sep 2014 #260

To me, it's not about "steps" at all thesquanderer Sep 2014 #190

Estimate then refine Recursion Sep 2014 #202

And as someone posted a few months ago- callous taoboy Sep 2014 #171

I was sad that that question caught so much flak here on DU Recursion Sep 2014 #233

This is a way of avoiding borrowing Recursion Sep 2014 #201

That is how i always did it sammytko Sep 2014 #393

What you're describing is how I subtract large numbers in my head Recursion Sep 2014 #199

As a first grader, I couldn't because of the too-advanced 'tricks and traps' language. BAD question. ancianita Sep 2014 #111

THIS is a first grade test question ? steve2470 Sep 2014 #114

I've been shocked at what age kids are learning stuff Recursion Sep 2014 #255

Funny, all I see in the news are failing schools, in insane numbers. DebJ Sep 2014 #276

Crazy, isn't it? Almost like people have a vested interest in encouraging a state of constant panic Recursion Sep 2014 #284

So please show me the good numbers that you refer to. DebJ Sep 2014 #288

Happy to Recursion Sep 2014 #296

You are right that schools are doing a better job over the last few decades. But... Sancho Sep 2014 #329

Thanks. Wish I could equate graduation with educated, though. DebJ Sep 2014 #366

Some smart fart once told me "If ya don't know the answer, pick C." MADem Sep 2014 #115

Yes......MineralMan above explained it perfectly. nt msanthrope Sep 2014 #136

On the CC test at the link below, can someone tell me... valerief Sep 2014 #116

Question 1 is 14, it's explaining the method given by a poster above mythology Sep 2014 #189

Thanks, but I have some issues with this. valerief Sep 2014 #200

Mad Floridian, one huge problem LibDemAlways Sep 2014 #117

When I was in first grade... steve2470 Sep 2014 #120

That blew me away. Can 1st graders actually read this well? valerief Sep 2014 #127

Here's a 1st grade reading worksheet Recursion Sep 2014 #246

"Beth's problem is that she thinks playing cowbell is an acceptable role in a rock band..." muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #318

Duzy!! missingthebigdog Sep 2014 #383

yes, kids have to practically read by kinder sammytko Sep 2014 #394

Oh and high school kids are taking college courses before they even finish high school sammytko Sep 2014 #395

4 - (-3) = 4 + 3 = 7. FlatStanley Sep 2014 #121

Because every 6 year old comprehends fully negative numbers! n/t DebJ Sep 2014 #268

My father was teaching ordinary third graders FlatStanley Sep 2014 #303

That was a beautiful arrangement: to teach the same group of kids for four years! Perfect! DebJ Sep 2014 #368

It was very fortunate, indeed. My dad wanted to pilot FlatStanley Sep 2014 #375

"Which is a related addition sentence" Sunlei Sep 2014 #125

Like This! alphafemale Sep 2014 #126

Good one! DebJ Sep 2014 #283

Sorry but I am actually a TEACHER...not a Monday night quarterback..... chillfactor Sep 2014 #128

Me, too. (n/t) Iggo Sep 2014 #335

One of the fascinating things about this example is that it ignores what we know about children! Sancho Sep 2014 #129

Amen! And assuming knowledgable experienced teachers will be in charter schools....Ha! DebJ Sep 2014 #265

I showed it to my fifth grader....she and I picked "C." msanthrope Sep 2014 #131

Yes, you are not understanding. tabasco Sep 2014 #141

What did we miss? Inversion is a pretty basic concept. I'm kind of msanthrope Sep 2014 #162

it is a typo questionseverything Sep 2014 #365

Ok I finally showed it to my kindergartener, though she can't read all that well gollygee Sep 2014 #168

You've caught the problem perfectly...education has changed, and for the better. msanthrope Sep 2014 #187

Since as you say, "education has changed, and for the better" DebJ Sep 2014 #280

+1! Enthusiast Sep 2014 #313

I would ask the OP why no time is spent posting msanthrope Sep 2014 #321

You aren't missing anything. Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #324

Not just DU. I am married to a teacher, friends with teachers, DebJ Sep 2014 #369

Because Americans like to crap on themselves. joshcryer Sep 2014 #334

I haven't seen nearly as many complaints about education as I saw 20 years ago. gollygee Sep 2014 #431

Given that C is the only answer using 4 and 3... malthaussen Sep 2014 #135

I was good at catching on to reading in first grade . . . Brigid Sep 2014 #144

imho the question, even clearly written, is too advanced for a first grader steve2470 Sep 2014 #145

Yep. I remember that too. Brigid Sep 2014 #146

So was I, it was taught with "Dick and Jane" books WHEN CRABS ROAR Sep 2014 #154

Just even looking at this gives me that sick feeling cwydro Sep 2014 #148

That is obviously a typo/proofreading error on an untested test. DamnYankeeInHouston Sep 2014 #150

Yes! Standardized tests can be hell for people capable of divergent thinking. n/t RufusTFirefly Sep 2014 #157

D..if you subtract 5 from 8 you get 3. n/t Bonhomme Richard Sep 2014 #152

Tony the Tiger was a question's subject on my sophomore child's common core test! Dont call me Shirley Sep 2014 #155

Would someone who understands this math theory please explain to me... TygrBright Sep 2014 #156

Well gollygee Sep 2014 #181

Or they're just teaching subtraction as addition, which I've seen Recursion Sep 2014 #206

Yeah that's possible gollygee Sep 2014 #220

Obviously what the kids were taught makes a huge difference in whether this is a good question Recursion Sep 2014 #222

She seems to be right, and the question made a mistake by putting subtraction instead of addition Chathamization Sep 2014 #229

Umm... a block 7 units long is divided by color into sub-blocks of 4 and 3 Recursion Sep 2014 #204

I didn't associate the blocks with the question at all. My bad, I guess... n/t TygrBright Sep 2014 #235

Huh? Recursion Sep 2014 #237

Nope. Got no connection at all between the blobby line of squares and the math question. n/t TygrBright Sep 2014 #273

Dont ask me how but jamzrockz Sep 2014 #158

42 n/t IDemo Sep 2014 #161

First, they're looking for addition; second, an ivory tower wonk wrote the question Warpy Sep 2014 #164

Bad question. LWolf Sep 2014 #172

The words are English Turbineguy Sep 2014 #176

A because all are related in some fashion to the #2 riversedge Sep 2014 #177

7-3=4 Dems to Win Sep 2014 #178

Yes, it should have a subtraction sign. madfloridian Sep 2014 #179

No. Addition and subtraction are equivalent Recursion Sep 2014 #203

Oh wow thank God for grown-ups like you. madfloridian Sep 2014 #263

It works out better for some people if the parents aren't able to help their children. DebJ Sep 2014 #287

I'm distracted by the stupid illustration. Demit Sep 2014 #182

It's not unidentifiable to that age group gollygee Sep 2014 #183

LOL! Just as I thought! Connecting blocks are used on circuit boards, etc Demit Sep 2014 #192

LOL gollygee Sep 2014 #194

I remember the spec sheets of one of those Recursion Sep 2014 #259

Again, what's old is new. We had manipulatives for quadratic equations in 1982 as 2nd-graders Recursion Sep 2014 #208

We didn't have ones that connected gollygee Sep 2014 #224

This is based on Montessori manipulatives. kwassa Sep 2014 #379

I would start by reading the instructions that are not pictured. n/t Gore1FL Sep 2014 #193

So there was an error on a single test somewhere in America. Hell, there are probable other errors Chathamization Sep 2014 #196

Legos! Rex Sep 2014 #198

Most First graders can't read & comprehend those words. southerncrone Sep 2014 #234

"If your student loan debt is $75,000..." Atman Sep 2014 #247

Looks just like my son's 1st grade work. RandySF Sep 2014 #264

C. Using manipulatives and looking at a problem more than one way. LeftyMom Sep 2014 #266

They asked for a subtraction problem. There is not one. It's misleading and just plain wrong. madfloridian Sep 2014 #278

The question tests understanding that a problem can be seen more than one way. LeftyMom Sep 2014 #286

I taught these methods for over 30 years. These are first graders, concrete thinkers. madfloridian Sep 2014 #291

You didn't teach that a subtraction problem can be rephrased as addition? LeftyMom Sep 2014 #292

Oh, come on now. Of course that was taught. madfloridian Sep 2014 #301

interesting- it reminded me of using an abacus, which I needed to in order to grasp math. bettyellen Sep 2014 #293

Exactly. Or counting back change. nt LeftyMom Sep 2014 #294

Tell me about it- I lost $ 9.05 in poker last night. My cash out of $1.95 reveals I had originally bettyellen Sep 2014 #295

Now picture the unfortunate first grader exposed to a test full of this idiocy. n/t pnwmom Sep 2014 #274

Did Sarah Palin frame the question because it makes no sense? Cleita Sep 2014 #298

Proof that it's a stupid mistake, not some high-level kind of reasoning. pnwmom Sep 2014 #302

I think I'm with Recursion on this one. joshcryer Sep 2014 #306

Except on page 2 of the same test they use the term "subtraction sentence" pnwmom Sep 2014 #311

How can you subtract 5 cookies from a cup of liquid? Demit Sep 2014 #320

This is "set of cookies dunked in milk and eaten." joshcryer Sep 2014 #325

Wow, I'm supposed to deduce that from that illustration??? Demit Sep 2014 #336

You're thinking like an adult. joshcryer Sep 2014 #339

But you wouldn't be by your nephew's side if he encountered this on a test. pnwmom Sep 2014 #344

How did you guess that? I honestly thought they were coins. pnwmom Sep 2014 #343

pnwmom, I was the one who thought they were cookies. Demit Sep 2014 #370

And think about all the ESL kids who thought they at least could do math problems pnwmom Sep 2014 #372

You also have to understand that "cookies and milk" might be culturally loaded... Sancho Sep 2014 #332

Plus, the symbol for a serving of milk would be a glass, not a mug. Demit Sep 2014 #338

Kids deserve the highest quality work in tests like this, since they're being used pnwmom Sep 2014 #346

This test isn't gollygee Sep 2014 #349

Not all standardized tests are graded by computers anymore, especially common core tests. pnwmom Sep 2014 #351

Not the written portions gollygee Sep 2014 #352

And math is treated the same way. Half of it depends on reading skills now, pnwmom Sep 2014 #354

Absolutely. My son got a bunch of questions wrong on a reading test pnwmom Sep 2014 #345

That's funny. I thought they were nickels. pnwmom Sep 2014 #342

I wonder if it's more clear in the original gollygee Sep 2014 #350

No, because a principal at the school that pointed this out pnwmom Sep 2014 #355

It is absolutely baffling, I was stunned to see these. joshcryer Sep 2014 #328

New ways of teaching, learning, explaining, and illustrating ideas are as old as Socrates.... Sancho Sep 2014 #364

Now to ME a subtraction *sentence* would go something like BuelahWitch Sep 2014 #314

A recipe for frustration? stage left Sep 2014 #326

Odometer? Octafish Sep 2014 #347

Best post of the thread. nt msanthrope Sep 2014 #348

Probably like this: B2G Sep 2014 #367

That makes my think meat in my bone bucket work underpants Sep 2014 #377

KNR pscot Sep 2014 #378

common core sucks for kids that are good at math. Vattel Sep 2014 #380

"C", but would not be comfortable with it fadedrose Sep 2014 #391

Hmmm, I wanted to get mad about this, but it makes sense. cbdo2007 Sep 2014 #417

The item ASKED for a subtraction problem. madfloridian Sep 2014 #418

It isn't a numbers question, it is a logic question. cbdo2007 Sep 2014 #419

"Just because you don't get it doesn't mean people are getting "tricked". LOL" madfloridian Sep 2014 #423

wow. I can't believe how blindly people will follow Obama's policies. liberal_at_heart Sep 2014 #421

The OP makes it clear I was a teacher. But I still got talked down to all through the thread. madfloridian Sep 2014 #424

education clearly is no where on the radar screen of democrats which is a deal breaker for me. liberal_at_heart Sep 2014 #425

Republicans believe in Education ? orpupilofnature57 Sep 2014 #427

socialists do. And don't give me that if I vote for a socialist I guarantee a republican wins crap. liberal_at_heart Sep 2014 #428

FDR was a socialist, and Bush wasn't a fascist, Sure . And thank socialists orpupilofnature57 Sep 2014 #429

You can say whatever you like. It will not change my vote. liberal_at_heart Sep 2014 #430

I wonder why half the people replying simply cannot fathom a test question being incorrect? Rex Sep 2014 #441

I wonder if a banker came up with this question. liberal_at_heart Sep 2014 #442

It's questionable whether it was a stupid mistake, or a purposeful mistake. Mc Mike Sep 2014 #443

An experienced teacher would recognize this Android3.14 Oct 2014 #444

The standards themselves are not the problem jmowreader Oct 2014 #445

The standards are part of the problem. The whole system is the problem. Did you see liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #446