General Discussion

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)

78. Don't create strawmen. Using inappropriate and gender biased language is wrong.

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:44 AM

Sep 2014

I never said I was picked on or unable to respond. I can respond if someone hurls bigoted language at me of any kind. That does not excuse the bigoted language.

If the only way you can respond to a point of mine is to use a term like "mansplaining" first of all it means you have no counterpoint and I am right and second you have used a gender biased term fraught with negative stereotypes.

Its the equivalent of someone saying back to you "Oh, you're just a silly woman". Its a bullshit and gender-biased thing to say in an effort to dismiss someone.

And as far as the other stuff you raised, don't pretend the whole 2nd and 3rd wave discussion/argument and the terminology used is something I invented. This has been going on for at least 20 years. Don't say things to me you wouldn't say to a woman making the same arguments because there are a lot of 3rd wave women, including plenty here on DU making the same arguments.

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Emma Watson: Feminism can never succeed unless men are part of the conversation [View all] davidn3600 Sep 2014 OP

Who doesn't talk about imprisoned male gender role stereotypes. Of course it is a huge issue in seabeyond Sep 2014 #1

Any woman thinks its easy being a man, read this book about a woman that lived as a man AZ Progressive Sep 2014 #8

exactly the point i am making. of course they are. so when addressing feminism, seabeyond Sep 2014 #11

And yet, Curmudgeoness Sep 2014 #14

Yes, including things like the nasty term "Mansplaining" if you dare to disagree. nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #16

Don't give up, stevenleser. Curmudgeoness Sep 2014 #20

you are not picked on steven. you are not a victim. you well hold your own. seabeyond Sep 2014 #71

Don't create strawmen. Using inappropriate and gender biased language is wrong. stevenleser Sep 2014 #78

the language was created for a reason, more than a decade ago. it has been called seabeyond Sep 2014 #82

All bigoted and biased terms were created for a "reason". To be hateful and dismissive. stevenleser Sep 2014 #94

i disagree. seabeyond Sep 2014 #97

It's easy to prove. Do you use it because you want to engage the person's argument? No. stevenleser Sep 2014 #100

In the grand scheme of things - Mansplaining is small potatoes el_bryanto Sep 2014 #217

Are you claiming that "mansplaining" doesn't exist? If so, I call BS Adrahil Sep 2014 #219

but do you not believe the idea of mansplaining exists? alp227 Sep 2014 #124

I have several problems with that. First is that a gender biased term is not needed to describe it stevenleser Sep 2014 #128

Why does every one think think this issue was created in a vacuum? ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #134

I never remotely suggested it was created in a vacuum. Few issues of bias are created in a vacuum stevenleser Sep 2014 #137

You are very Clever with words I see, with a soupcon of projection ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #138

Personally, I see "sex-positive"/"sex-negative" as a classic false dichotomy. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #170

I'd love to hear your suggestion for an alternative dichotomy Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #177

What I mean by "false dichotomy" is that it's an oversimplification. Whether intentional or not. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #178

Give me some examples of the messed-up ideas you're talking about Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #182

Like seeing male-female relationships as a predator/prey dynamic, rather than something more nuanced nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #185

Okay, see I would view all of those examples of sex negativity Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #192

"So long as only consenting adults are involved, people should not be shamed..." nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #195

I suspected you would agree and I'm glad we had this conversation Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #202

Agreed all around. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #206

"Mansplaining" is real. I see it in action almost every day, HOWEVER.... Adrahil Sep 2014 #218

and i look at the men in this thread. some i like or respect at the least. and i know.... seabeyond Sep 2014 #70

Watson's salient point: Men need to be "welcome." Eleanors38 Sep 2014 #156

I read that book. Fascinating! BlancheSplanchnik Sep 2014 #45

Yes. The listening closely part. MineralMan Sep 2014 #2

She's right. Social change IS conversation. DirkGently Sep 2014 #3

It gets frustrating to the oppressed group treestar Sep 2014 #19

Regarding "complaining about the others in broad strokes..." alp227 Sep 2014 #125

I don't think that's the kind of "working" we are looking for, do you? DirkGently Sep 2014 #208

Obviously that's some serious crazy talk mythology Sep 2014 #4

hence Frozen PatrynXX Sep 2014 #5

read the whole thing earlier justabob Sep 2014 #6

"To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war." - Winston Churchill Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2014 #7

K&R Owl Sep 2014 #9

Emma Watson is an awesome actress.....and a really good person to boot. AverageJoe90 Sep 2014 #10

Excuse me. I am a part so "the discussion" salib Sep 2014 #12

I'm not sure why the OP titled this the way he did but- Raffi Ella Sep 2014 #13

read the whole speech justabob Sep 2014 #15

Reading comprehension 101: She was not referring to a subset of feminism who are man-haters justiceischeap Sep 2014 #57

another point. the obvious. feminist has never been a large group. never near a majority. seabeyond Sep 2014 #75

That's how I read it, too. Raffi Ella Sep 2014 #116

The OP has an agenda, to put it mildly. nt LeftyMom Sep 2014 #17

Really? What would that be? NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #22

Obviously, putting it mildly is not enough for some. salib Sep 2014 #24

Emma Watson isn't the problem here. nt LeftyMom Sep 2014 #26

The OP refers to the poster, not Watson Gormy Cuss Sep 2014 #66

I will continue on by quoting from the article salib Sep 2014 #21

OK justabob Sep 2014 #28

I read the full speech salib Sep 2014 #34

I read the speech before this op was posted justabob Sep 2014 #39

thanks-I knew the OP spinned it because the edit is so off/ choppy, her speech seemed so rudimentary bettyellen Sep 2014 #84

+1 YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #120

The usual "man hating" BS treestar Sep 2014 #18

Yep, it is really so obvious. salib Sep 2014 #23

An attitude that I have inferred from some on this board is... NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #25

I doubt that is true treestar Sep 2014 #27

Obviously I disagree. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #30

With what? treestar Sep 2014 #32

I disagree with the idea... NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #33

you can disagree on that treestar Sep 2014 #37

My wife has the hots for Vin Diesel and The Rock. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #38

So, treating people as sex OBJECTS is part of being a sexual being? salib Sep 2014 #42

No, I don't see anything wrong with viewing some people as sex objects. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #43

In daily life, women can be treated as objects treestar Sep 2014 #88

and you want to complain about being codecended to Egnever Sep 2014 #145

it has always ben, since the invention of feminism, the majority that tune feminist out because they seabeyond Sep 2014 #152

what I just got from that was Egnever Sep 2014 #161

Me giving you historical factual information on feminism is condescending? seabeyond Sep 2014 #166

No. That's not why. JTFrog Sep 2014 #162

You don't see anything wrong with viewing people as sex objects? MattBaggins Sep 2014 #113

hence the ability to make a video grabbing young women/girls ass and laugh. or... seabeyond Sep 2014 #119

Nope. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #158

Yes, I do think objectification occurs every time someone has "the hots" for a stranger. Threedifferentones Sep 2014 #60

Well said Egnever Sep 2014 #146

There's a big difference between "having the hots" for someone, and treating them as less than nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #179

Ya... Threedifferentones Sep 2014 #215

There's no equality between the sexes yet on that treestar Sep 2014 #86

So you want men to be involved BUT... do every single thing a woman says? davidn3600 Sep 2014 #41

That is not what she said. salib Sep 2014 #46

Thanks! treestar Sep 2014 #91

Where are you getting that? treestar Sep 2014 #89

Thanks for the race relations example salib Sep 2014 #36

Er. White people DO need to be included in discussions of race relations. DirkGently Sep 2014 #47

Yes, but white people shouldn't be leading the conversation Gormy Cuss Sep 2014 #220

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2014 #51

That's not what some feminism is... Oktober Sep 2014 #55

I haven't seen much of that treestar Sep 2014 #85

The exact ratio would be very difficult to determine... Oktober Sep 2014 #106

Sure there are. But conflating feminists in general with that subgroup of them, is bullshit. n/t nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #180

Squeaky wheels and all that... Oktober Sep 2014 #210

See my post above justiceischeap Sep 2014 #58

You could be right treestar Sep 2014 #93

She goes on to give the definition of Feminism justiceischeap Sep 2014 #126

And looking at the context treestar Sep 2014 #176

That's exactly what she's trying to do... Violet_Crumble Sep 2014 #211

"You can take that both ways." Indeed. Frankly, I don't feel "welcome" Eleanors38 Sep 2014 #167

This thread is full of men telling women they're doing feminism wrong. LeftyMom Sep 2014 #29

Okie dokie. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #31

I saw that one marching down the square. Bonobo Sep 2014 #54

You fool no one. nt LeftyMom Sep 2014 #65

Aw, shoot. It's "Talk Like Tarzan Day" and no one told me! Bonobo Sep 2014 #67

Taking a long time to get the results back. Autumn Sep 2014 #111

+1 n/t JTFrog Sep 2014 #163

Off to see the Wizard, the wonderful Wizard of Oz!" Eleanors38 Sep 2014 #169

To me, it seems like most of the trouble between the sexes is not following a very old saying. BlueJazz Sep 2014 #35

Yep, it is not as simple as all that salib Sep 2014 #40

What you say is quite true. I'll never know the full range of what sexism has done or even... BlueJazz Sep 2014 #44

Yep, we have so much yo understand. salib Sep 2014 #48

Men are trapped by gender roles by the patriarchy just as much as women are davidn3600 Sep 2014 #50

I think most Feminists recognize that. Bonobo Sep 2014 #52

this post clearly shows you lack of understanding patriarchy and its role. seabeyond Sep 2014 #76

In your opinion and that's all. Bonobo Sep 2014 #79

patriarchy has a definition. it is not an opinion. seabeyond Sep 2014 #83

Your opinion = "this post clearly shows you lack of understanding patriarchy" Bonobo Sep 2014 #90

I don't think you understand what patriarchal culture actually is after reading this. bettyellen Sep 2014 #102

Yes, and it was also what her mom did to her dad and etc. Turtles all the way down, I get it. Bonobo Sep 2014 #104

it's also the institutionalized power structure men have created and continue to hold onto... bettyellen Sep 2014 #108

How about we look at some definitions of "patriarchy" YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #112

"Feminism" definitely does recognize that and I think that is a big part of Emma Watson's point. Threedifferentones Sep 2014 #61

Feminism is absolutely NOT about man-hating. Bonobo Sep 2014 #49

I don't believe you have seen any actual "man-hating" YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #117

Hi, a quick question, was it your alert? I have seen a couple, but not often and mostly by trolls uppityperson Sep 2014 #122

+1 nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #183

Why blame men? Jeneral2885 Sep 2014 #53

huh? what's with the "so-called feminist"? cali Sep 2014 #56

Your comment is exactly what Emma Watson was referring to that has some women upset in this thread justiceischeap Sep 2014 #59

Epic takedown right there. Thank you. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #188

Good reply, IMO. nt AverageJoe90 Sep 2014 #205

Well said n/t Violet_Crumble Sep 2014 #212

"So-called Feminists"? Iggo Sep 2014 #73

"It's their lack of willingness to move rather than men stopping them from doing so." YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #115

Jury results alcibiades_mystery Sep 2014 #129

I agree that comment was idiotic but the alert message wasn't much better Number23 Sep 2014 #187

That only applies if "patriarchy" and "men" are exact synonyms. Which they're not. n/t nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #186

I wish people would stop Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #62

I think you really made some important points Bonobo Sep 2014 #63

serious? so, this would be like those... hysterical, emotional, non thinking, ... women? nt seabeyond Sep 2014 #77

Not necessarily Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #140

Are you betraying a little self hatred here? "the masculine ethos or culture seems so corrupted... bettyellen Sep 2014 #87

"women's problems" Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #141

I think you describe the reasons quite well in your first post Egnever Sep 2014 #151

Thanks. Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #173

"some are going to be more defensive and reactive then others. Those women who lash out at men I..." bettyellen Sep 2014 #175

I'm not sure what you are talking about Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #191

Please, Betty, don't feel obligated to reply Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #225

i think the issue is we are continually defined in this manner to the extent of emotionally damaged seabeyond Sep 2014 #228

And when used in that way, to shut down expression, I agree, that would be abusive Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #230

point on. i think you hit it on this post. and reactions. thanks, dude. nt seabeyond Sep 2014 #231

btw, i think there are a couple names that took it was a weapon, just as we suggest, rather seabeyond Sep 2014 #232

This was a rather thoughtful post, and thank you for sharing it. nt AverageJoe90 Sep 2014 #184

I know you mean well, but this post comes across as awfullly patronizing. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #190

The only ideas I was suggesting were not Feminism Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #196

I see what you're saying. But why should those extreme statements be conflated with "feminism" nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #198

Sounds reasonable to me. k&r n/t Laelth Sep 2014 #64

Men already dominate and sway the conversation. Orsino Sep 2014 #68

But that's man hating kcr Sep 2014 #69

seriously. hte men in this thread, are bothered we do not listen, and as i listen, i am hearing seabeyond Sep 2014 #80

Oh you silly man-hater you.... JTFrog Sep 2014 #168

And that implies that men can't dominate anymore YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #118

will be better for EVERYONE seabeyond Sep 2014 #121

That strikes me as silly Egnever Sep 2014 #157

Men dominate most public discourse. Orsino Sep 2014 #209

I agree but it will never succeed if women aren't a part of the conversation either LynneSin Sep 2014 #72

�I was appointed six months ago" six WHOLE fuggin months ago? really? seabeyond Sep 2014 #74

This message was self-deleted by its author Blue_Adept Sep 2014 #109

The title of the OP was misleading. You need to read or watch her speech... Violet_Crumble Sep 2014 #213

Yes, men need to participate. No, men's issues do not come first. No, men do not get to lead. seaglass Sep 2014 #81

+1 gollygee Sep 2014 #95

It's like some are so used to being listened/catered to that they can't fathom giving someone nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #194

Fortunately no invitation is actually needed. We are all involved already. Bonobo Sep 2014 #96

Then in what sense is this conversation about equality? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #149

So... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #204

Now she's getting threats from 4chan over this speech MohRokTah Sep 2014 #92

How would they even have nude photos? treestar Sep 2014 #98

hackers into phones, or cloud, i am assuming. women have been threatened and violated in seabeyond Sep 2014 #101

Or photoshopped. nt alp227 Sep 2014 #127

humiliate and degrade thru a womans sexuality. that is the only weapon these men have. seabeyond Sep 2014 #99

"and as a society as a whole."---I think I see the problem here. Bonobo Sep 2014 #103

like having to reduce voice in womens issues to merely the few hof women, regardless seabeyond Sep 2014 #105

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Bonobo Sep 2014 #107

There they go again, sea. Their goal is never understanding. It's getting posts hidden. R B Garr Sep 2014 #130

The goal gollygee Sep 2014 #221

They figure she's given them permission to take over the conversation. seabeyond Sep 2014 #224

Whole lot of misunderstanding in that excerpt. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2014 #133

Yes and no cemaphonic Sep 2014 #171

Ok, I guess I didn't hang around long enough to Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2014 #172

Feminists need to get respectable male figures involved in this to increase the chances of success AZ Progressive Sep 2014 #110

there fear of losing the man card i think is the true vast majority. if they can get over seabeyond Sep 2014 #123

SHUTTICUS UPPIMUS!!! KamaAina Sep 2014 #114

K&R libodem Sep 2014 #131

This message was self-deleted by its author Luminous Animal Sep 2014 #132

This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Sep 2014 #135

There's a fundamental disagreement about the nature of feminism. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #136

The blatant hypocrisy in the feminist movement is the reason the label is tarnished davidn3600 Sep 2014 #139

this has been the case from the beginning of suffragate to today. this is not new. seabeyond Sep 2014 #153

And you've yet to answer to any of the examples of hypocrisy that have mentioned in this thread davidn3600 Sep 2014 #174

What blatant hypocrisy? Gormy Cuss Sep 2014 #189

Are you serious? davidn3600 Sep 2014 #207

I've read the whole thread, even the parts posted AFTER my post Gormy Cuss Sep 2014 #223

Explain that to a African American or a Latina or a Ukranian ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #142

Their race confers legitimate disadvantage. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #147

Whoa ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #159

Somebody is trying to shut you down Taitertots Sep 2014 #144

I get mail. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #148

no one... has argued that feminist should not and do not... listen to men. seabeyond Sep 2014 #154

Except the person who alerted my post lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #155

I did not read the alert message. Did you? Gotta see it before I agree. Nt seabeyond Sep 2014 #164

He thinks being female does not confer a fundamental disadvantage ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #160

Not a level playing field and still women rise and kick ass in voice... seabeyond Sep 2014 #165

I've never looked at feminism as equal to 'man-haters' Rex Sep 2014 #143

Humanity trumps all patriotism seveneyes Sep 2014 #150

Too bad all the feminists I've met on DU so far... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #181

What an incredibly nasty and hateful thing to say. n/t JTFrog Sep 2014 #193

Why? Because it's true? DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #197

No, but it sure sounds like something someone trolling feminist issues would say. n/t JTFrog Sep 2014 #199

Oh, thats rich! DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #200

The only thing I lost was the minutes I used to interact with you. JTFrog Sep 2014 #203

Hi, you haven't met me yet. I'm a feminist. What have I done to you to make you take me less justiceischeap Sep 2014 #216

So, are you willing to have a rational... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #226

How can one have a civil discussion with someone who already seems to have pre-conceived notions justiceischeap Sep 2014 #227

You are reading the posts out of chronological... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #233

i am irrational? lol seabeyond Sep 2014 #229

Are you ever... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #234

you called me irrational. that is against the rules as is putting up rape videos. seabeyond Sep 2014 #235

And you keep conflating the issue... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #236

wrong. me: rape as entertainment for men. you: prove it with video. me: no! seabeyond Sep 2014 #237

So prove it. DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #240

Go out and educate yourself. JTFrog Sep 2014 #241

the jokes, in comedies... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #242

Well at least you are completely exposed here. JTFrog Sep 2014 #243

Right, because it to you a dozen troll posts to finally post a link... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #244

No one is obligated to meet your demands dude. JTFrog Sep 2014 #245

I backed up all of my claims, you instead made false allegations. DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #246

I thought we were supposed to "sit down and STFU". RandySF Sep 2014 #201

apparently you thought wrong. n/t Scout Sep 2014 #239

Hasn't been my experience on DU DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #247

I don't think she was including MRAs. Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #214

Men are part of the conversation. NuclearDem Sep 2014 #222

A valiant effort by Watson Harmony Blue Sep 2014 #238