General Discussion

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)

225. Please, Betty, don't feel obligated to reply

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 10:09 AM

Sep 2014

if you don't feel like it (of course) but I want you to know I feel you unfairly characterized my posts and you didn't make a good case against me.

Acknowledging that some women have less than productive interpretations of Feminism and suggesting why that could be or that some men are using some women as a way to discredit Feminism is not attacking women or the gender. "man" and "woman" are just terms for "human." I'm talking about humans. All humans make mistakes.

It may be problematic for you on a personal level based on your experience but not every attempt to explain the mechanisms behind, what I might add, are gender neutral interactions, is hiding a misogynist attempting to dominate women by man'splaning.

I find the refusal to acknowledge faults the same reason progress can't be made in redefining masculinity. It's the same crap patriarchal culture employs against women. "Men are flawless. Don't second guess our behavior. Representing any men in a bad light is an attack on men."

That's not the pattern of someone interested in advancing the human condition but of advancing a gender war.

You may indeed someday encounter a man who has a more accurate interpretation of the dynamics of the gender wars than a women (just as I have happily embraced a great many feminists as heroines, role-models and experts.) Whether you can accept that or not will be indicative of whether you are truly interested in advancing the human condition.

I wish you well.

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Emma Watson: Feminism can never succeed unless men are part of the conversation [View all] davidn3600 Sep 2014 OP

Who doesn't talk about imprisoned male gender role stereotypes. Of course it is a huge issue in seabeyond Sep 2014 #1

Any woman thinks its easy being a man, read this book about a woman that lived as a man AZ Progressive Sep 2014 #8

exactly the point i am making. of course they are. so when addressing feminism, seabeyond Sep 2014 #11

And yet, Curmudgeoness Sep 2014 #14

Yes, including things like the nasty term "Mansplaining" if you dare to disagree. nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #16

Don't give up, stevenleser. Curmudgeoness Sep 2014 #20

you are not picked on steven. you are not a victim. you well hold your own. seabeyond Sep 2014 #71

Don't create strawmen. Using inappropriate and gender biased language is wrong. stevenleser Sep 2014 #78

the language was created for a reason, more than a decade ago. it has been called seabeyond Sep 2014 #82

All bigoted and biased terms were created for a "reason". To be hateful and dismissive. stevenleser Sep 2014 #94

i disagree. seabeyond Sep 2014 #97

It's easy to prove. Do you use it because you want to engage the person's argument? No. stevenleser Sep 2014 #100

In the grand scheme of things - Mansplaining is small potatoes el_bryanto Sep 2014 #217

Are you claiming that "mansplaining" doesn't exist? If so, I call BS Adrahil Sep 2014 #219

but do you not believe the idea of mansplaining exists? alp227 Sep 2014 #124

I have several problems with that. First is that a gender biased term is not needed to describe it stevenleser Sep 2014 #128

Why does every one think think this issue was created in a vacuum? ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #134

I never remotely suggested it was created in a vacuum. Few issues of bias are created in a vacuum stevenleser Sep 2014 #137

You are very Clever with words I see, with a soupcon of projection ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #138

Personally, I see "sex-positive"/"sex-negative" as a classic false dichotomy. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #170

I'd love to hear your suggestion for an alternative dichotomy Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #177

What I mean by "false dichotomy" is that it's an oversimplification. Whether intentional or not. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #178

Give me some examples of the messed-up ideas you're talking about Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #182

Like seeing male-female relationships as a predator/prey dynamic, rather than something more nuanced nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #185

Okay, see I would view all of those examples of sex negativity Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #192

"So long as only consenting adults are involved, people should not be shamed..." nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #195

I suspected you would agree and I'm glad we had this conversation Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #202

Agreed all around. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #206

"Mansplaining" is real. I see it in action almost every day, HOWEVER.... Adrahil Sep 2014 #218

and i look at the men in this thread. some i like or respect at the least. and i know.... seabeyond Sep 2014 #70

Watson's salient point: Men need to be "welcome." Eleanors38 Sep 2014 #156

I read that book. Fascinating! BlancheSplanchnik Sep 2014 #45

Yes. The listening closely part. MineralMan Sep 2014 #2

She's right. Social change IS conversation. DirkGently Sep 2014 #3

It gets frustrating to the oppressed group treestar Sep 2014 #19

Regarding "complaining about the others in broad strokes..." alp227 Sep 2014 #125

I don't think that's the kind of "working" we are looking for, do you? DirkGently Sep 2014 #208

Obviously that's some serious crazy talk mythology Sep 2014 #4

hence Frozen PatrynXX Sep 2014 #5

read the whole thing earlier justabob Sep 2014 #6

"To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war." - Winston Churchill Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2014 #7

K&R Owl Sep 2014 #9

Emma Watson is an awesome actress.....and a really good person to boot. AverageJoe90 Sep 2014 #10

Excuse me. I am a part so "the discussion" salib Sep 2014 #12

I'm not sure why the OP titled this the way he did but- Raffi Ella Sep 2014 #13

read the whole speech justabob Sep 2014 #15

Reading comprehension 101: She was not referring to a subset of feminism who are man-haters justiceischeap Sep 2014 #57

another point. the obvious. feminist has never been a large group. never near a majority. seabeyond Sep 2014 #75

That's how I read it, too. Raffi Ella Sep 2014 #116

The OP has an agenda, to put it mildly. nt LeftyMom Sep 2014 #17

Really? What would that be? NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #22

Obviously, putting it mildly is not enough for some. salib Sep 2014 #24

Emma Watson isn't the problem here. nt LeftyMom Sep 2014 #26

The OP refers to the poster, not Watson Gormy Cuss Sep 2014 #66

I will continue on by quoting from the article salib Sep 2014 #21

OK justabob Sep 2014 #28

I read the full speech salib Sep 2014 #34

I read the speech before this op was posted justabob Sep 2014 #39

thanks-I knew the OP spinned it because the edit is so off/ choppy, her speech seemed so rudimentary bettyellen Sep 2014 #84

+1 YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #120

The usual "man hating" BS treestar Sep 2014 #18

Yep, it is really so obvious. salib Sep 2014 #23

An attitude that I have inferred from some on this board is... NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #25

I doubt that is true treestar Sep 2014 #27

Obviously I disagree. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #30

With what? treestar Sep 2014 #32

I disagree with the idea... NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #33

you can disagree on that treestar Sep 2014 #37

My wife has the hots for Vin Diesel and The Rock. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #38

So, treating people as sex OBJECTS is part of being a sexual being? salib Sep 2014 #42

No, I don't see anything wrong with viewing some people as sex objects. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #43

In daily life, women can be treated as objects treestar Sep 2014 #88

and you want to complain about being codecended to Egnever Sep 2014 #145

it has always ben, since the invention of feminism, the majority that tune feminist out because they seabeyond Sep 2014 #152

what I just got from that was Egnever Sep 2014 #161

Me giving you historical factual information on feminism is condescending? seabeyond Sep 2014 #166

No. That's not why. JTFrog Sep 2014 #162

You don't see anything wrong with viewing people as sex objects? MattBaggins Sep 2014 #113

hence the ability to make a video grabbing young women/girls ass and laugh. or... seabeyond Sep 2014 #119

Nope. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #158

Yes, I do think objectification occurs every time someone has "the hots" for a stranger. Threedifferentones Sep 2014 #60

Well said Egnever Sep 2014 #146

There's a big difference between "having the hots" for someone, and treating them as less than nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #179

Ya... Threedifferentones Sep 2014 #215

There's no equality between the sexes yet on that treestar Sep 2014 #86

So you want men to be involved BUT... do every single thing a woman says? davidn3600 Sep 2014 #41

That is not what she said. salib Sep 2014 #46

Thanks! treestar Sep 2014 #91

Where are you getting that? treestar Sep 2014 #89

Thanks for the race relations example salib Sep 2014 #36

Er. White people DO need to be included in discussions of race relations. DirkGently Sep 2014 #47

Yes, but white people shouldn't be leading the conversation Gormy Cuss Sep 2014 #220

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2014 #51

That's not what some feminism is... Oktober Sep 2014 #55

I haven't seen much of that treestar Sep 2014 #85

The exact ratio would be very difficult to determine... Oktober Sep 2014 #106

Sure there are. But conflating feminists in general with that subgroup of them, is bullshit. n/t nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #180

Squeaky wheels and all that... Oktober Sep 2014 #210

See my post above justiceischeap Sep 2014 #58

You could be right treestar Sep 2014 #93

She goes on to give the definition of Feminism justiceischeap Sep 2014 #126

And looking at the context treestar Sep 2014 #176

That's exactly what she's trying to do... Violet_Crumble Sep 2014 #211

"You can take that both ways." Indeed. Frankly, I don't feel "welcome" Eleanors38 Sep 2014 #167

This thread is full of men telling women they're doing feminism wrong. LeftyMom Sep 2014 #29

Okie dokie. NaturalHigh Sep 2014 #31

I saw that one marching down the square. Bonobo Sep 2014 #54

You fool no one. nt LeftyMom Sep 2014 #65

Aw, shoot. It's "Talk Like Tarzan Day" and no one told me! Bonobo Sep 2014 #67

Taking a long time to get the results back. Autumn Sep 2014 #111

+1 n/t JTFrog Sep 2014 #163

Off to see the Wizard, the wonderful Wizard of Oz!" Eleanors38 Sep 2014 #169

To me, it seems like most of the trouble between the sexes is not following a very old saying. BlueJazz Sep 2014 #35

Yep, it is not as simple as all that salib Sep 2014 #40

What you say is quite true. I'll never know the full range of what sexism has done or even... BlueJazz Sep 2014 #44

Yep, we have so much yo understand. salib Sep 2014 #48

Men are trapped by gender roles by the patriarchy just as much as women are davidn3600 Sep 2014 #50

I think most Feminists recognize that. Bonobo Sep 2014 #52

this post clearly shows you lack of understanding patriarchy and its role. seabeyond Sep 2014 #76

In your opinion and that's all. Bonobo Sep 2014 #79

patriarchy has a definition. it is not an opinion. seabeyond Sep 2014 #83

Your opinion = "this post clearly shows you lack of understanding patriarchy" Bonobo Sep 2014 #90

I don't think you understand what patriarchal culture actually is after reading this. bettyellen Sep 2014 #102

Yes, and it was also what her mom did to her dad and etc. Turtles all the way down, I get it. Bonobo Sep 2014 #104

it's also the institutionalized power structure men have created and continue to hold onto... bettyellen Sep 2014 #108

How about we look at some definitions of "patriarchy" YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #112

"Feminism" definitely does recognize that and I think that is a big part of Emma Watson's point. Threedifferentones Sep 2014 #61

Feminism is absolutely NOT about man-hating. Bonobo Sep 2014 #49

I don't believe you have seen any actual "man-hating" YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #117

Hi, a quick question, was it your alert? I have seen a couple, but not often and mostly by trolls uppityperson Sep 2014 #122

+1 nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #183

Why blame men? Jeneral2885 Sep 2014 #53

huh? what's with the "so-called feminist"? cali Sep 2014 #56

Your comment is exactly what Emma Watson was referring to that has some women upset in this thread justiceischeap Sep 2014 #59

Epic takedown right there. Thank you. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #188

Good reply, IMO. nt AverageJoe90 Sep 2014 #205

Well said n/t Violet_Crumble Sep 2014 #212

"So-called Feminists"? Iggo Sep 2014 #73

"It's their lack of willingness to move rather than men stopping them from doing so." YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #115

Jury results alcibiades_mystery Sep 2014 #129

I agree that comment was idiotic but the alert message wasn't much better Number23 Sep 2014 #187

That only applies if "patriarchy" and "men" are exact synonyms. Which they're not. n/t nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #186

I wish people would stop Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #62

I think you really made some important points Bonobo Sep 2014 #63

serious? so, this would be like those... hysterical, emotional, non thinking, ... women? nt seabeyond Sep 2014 #77

Not necessarily Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #140

Are you betraying a little self hatred here? "the masculine ethos or culture seems so corrupted... bettyellen Sep 2014 #87

"women's problems" Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #141

I think you describe the reasons quite well in your first post Egnever Sep 2014 #151

Thanks. Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #173

"some are going to be more defensive and reactive then others. Those women who lash out at men I..." bettyellen Sep 2014 #175

I'm not sure what you are talking about Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #191

Please, Betty, don't feel obligated to reply Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #225

i think the issue is we are continually defined in this manner to the extent of emotionally damaged seabeyond Sep 2014 #228

And when used in that way, to shut down expression, I agree, that would be abusive Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #230

point on. i think you hit it on this post. and reactions. thanks, dude. nt seabeyond Sep 2014 #231

btw, i think there are a couple names that took it was a weapon, just as we suggest, rather seabeyond Sep 2014 #232

This was a rather thoughtful post, and thank you for sharing it. nt AverageJoe90 Sep 2014 #184

I know you mean well, but this post comes across as awfullly patronizing. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #190

The only ideas I was suggesting were not Feminism Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #196

I see what you're saying. But why should those extreme statements be conflated with "feminism" nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #198

Sounds reasonable to me. k&r n/t Laelth Sep 2014 #64

Men already dominate and sway the conversation. Orsino Sep 2014 #68

But that's man hating kcr Sep 2014 #69

seriously. hte men in this thread, are bothered we do not listen, and as i listen, i am hearing seabeyond Sep 2014 #80

Oh you silly man-hater you.... JTFrog Sep 2014 #168

And that implies that men can't dominate anymore YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #118

will be better for EVERYONE seabeyond Sep 2014 #121

That strikes me as silly Egnever Sep 2014 #157

Men dominate most public discourse. Orsino Sep 2014 #209

I agree but it will never succeed if women aren't a part of the conversation either LynneSin Sep 2014 #72

�I was appointed six months ago" six WHOLE fuggin months ago? really? seabeyond Sep 2014 #74

This message was self-deleted by its author Blue_Adept Sep 2014 #109

The title of the OP was misleading. You need to read or watch her speech... Violet_Crumble Sep 2014 #213

Yes, men need to participate. No, men's issues do not come first. No, men do not get to lead. seaglass Sep 2014 #81

+1 gollygee Sep 2014 #95

It's like some are so used to being listened/catered to that they can't fathom giving someone nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #194

Fortunately no invitation is actually needed. We are all involved already. Bonobo Sep 2014 #96

Then in what sense is this conversation about equality? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #149

So... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #204

Now she's getting threats from 4chan over this speech MohRokTah Sep 2014 #92

How would they even have nude photos? treestar Sep 2014 #98

hackers into phones, or cloud, i am assuming. women have been threatened and violated in seabeyond Sep 2014 #101

Or photoshopped. nt alp227 Sep 2014 #127

humiliate and degrade thru a womans sexuality. that is the only weapon these men have. seabeyond Sep 2014 #99

"and as a society as a whole."---I think I see the problem here. Bonobo Sep 2014 #103

like having to reduce voice in womens issues to merely the few hof women, regardless seabeyond Sep 2014 #105

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Bonobo Sep 2014 #107

There they go again, sea. Their goal is never understanding. It's getting posts hidden. R B Garr Sep 2014 #130

The goal gollygee Sep 2014 #221

They figure she's given them permission to take over the conversation. seabeyond Sep 2014 #224

Whole lot of misunderstanding in that excerpt. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2014 #133

Yes and no cemaphonic Sep 2014 #171

Ok, I guess I didn't hang around long enough to Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2014 #172

Feminists need to get respectable male figures involved in this to increase the chances of success AZ Progressive Sep 2014 #110

there fear of losing the man card i think is the true vast majority. if they can get over seabeyond Sep 2014 #123

SHUTTICUS UPPIMUS!!! KamaAina Sep 2014 #114

K&R libodem Sep 2014 #131

This message was self-deleted by its author Luminous Animal Sep 2014 #132

This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Sep 2014 #135

There's a fundamental disagreement about the nature of feminism. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #136

The blatant hypocrisy in the feminist movement is the reason the label is tarnished davidn3600 Sep 2014 #139

this has been the case from the beginning of suffragate to today. this is not new. seabeyond Sep 2014 #153

And you've yet to answer to any of the examples of hypocrisy that have mentioned in this thread davidn3600 Sep 2014 #174

What blatant hypocrisy? Gormy Cuss Sep 2014 #189

Are you serious? davidn3600 Sep 2014 #207

I've read the whole thread, even the parts posted AFTER my post Gormy Cuss Sep 2014 #223

Explain that to a African American or a Latina or a Ukranian ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #142

Their race confers legitimate disadvantage. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #147

Whoa ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #159

Somebody is trying to shut you down Taitertots Sep 2014 #144

I get mail. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #148

no one... has argued that feminist should not and do not... listen to men. seabeyond Sep 2014 #154

Except the person who alerted my post lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #155

I did not read the alert message. Did you? Gotta see it before I agree. Nt seabeyond Sep 2014 #164

He thinks being female does not confer a fundamental disadvantage ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #160

Not a level playing field and still women rise and kick ass in voice... seabeyond Sep 2014 #165

I've never looked at feminism as equal to 'man-haters' Rex Sep 2014 #143

Humanity trumps all patriotism seveneyes Sep 2014 #150

Too bad all the feminists I've met on DU so far... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #181

What an incredibly nasty and hateful thing to say. n/t JTFrog Sep 2014 #193

Why? Because it's true? DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #197

No, but it sure sounds like something someone trolling feminist issues would say. n/t JTFrog Sep 2014 #199

Oh, thats rich! DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #200

The only thing I lost was the minutes I used to interact with you. JTFrog Sep 2014 #203

Hi, you haven't met me yet. I'm a feminist. What have I done to you to make you take me less justiceischeap Sep 2014 #216

So, are you willing to have a rational... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #226

How can one have a civil discussion with someone who already seems to have pre-conceived notions justiceischeap Sep 2014 #227

You are reading the posts out of chronological... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #233

i am irrational? lol seabeyond Sep 2014 #229

Are you ever... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #234

you called me irrational. that is against the rules as is putting up rape videos. seabeyond Sep 2014 #235

And you keep conflating the issue... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #236

wrong. me: rape as entertainment for men. you: prove it with video. me: no! seabeyond Sep 2014 #237

So prove it. DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #240

Go out and educate yourself. JTFrog Sep 2014 #241

the jokes, in comedies... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #242

Well at least you are completely exposed here. JTFrog Sep 2014 #243

Right, because it to you a dozen troll posts to finally post a link... DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #244

No one is obligated to meet your demands dude. JTFrog Sep 2014 #245

I backed up all of my claims, you instead made false allegations. DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #246

I thought we were supposed to "sit down and STFU". RandySF Sep 2014 #201

apparently you thought wrong. n/t Scout Sep 2014 #239

Hasn't been my experience on DU DavidG_WI Sep 2014 #247

I don't think she was including MRAs. Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #214

Men are part of the conversation. NuclearDem Sep 2014 #222

A valiant effort by Watson Harmony Blue Sep 2014 #238