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In reply to the discussion: Study: Men of All Ages Want Women in Their Mid-20s [View all]seabeyond
(110,159 posts)226. Does evolutionary psychology have any problems?
Yes. Here are what I see as a few of the major problems currently faced by evolutionary psychology:
1. Evolutionary psychology is attempting to elucidate the functional organization of the brain even though researchers currently cannot, with very few exceptions, directly study complex neural circuits. This is like attempting to discover the functions of the lungs, heart, etc., without being able to conduct dissections. Although psychological evidence indisputably reveals that cognition has structure, it is less clear that it does so with sufficient resolution to provide convincing evidence of functional design. Can the current state of the art in cognitive psychology successfully cleave human nature at its joints? Maybe, maybe not. Despite these reservations, it is worth noting that virtually every research university in the world has a psychology department. Grounding psychology in an explicit framework of evolved function cannot help but improve attempts to unveil the workings of the brain. It is far easier to find something if you have some idea of what it is you are looking for.
2. The domains of cognition proposed by evolutionary psychologists are often pretty ad hoc. Traditionally, cognitive psychologists have assumed that cognitive abilities are relatively abstract: categorization, signal detection, recognition, memory, logic, inference, etc. Evolutionary psychology proposes a radically orthogonal set of 'ecologically valid' domains and reasoning abilities: predator detection, toxin avoidance, incest avoidance, mate selection, mating strategies, social exchange, and so on. These latter domains and abilities are derived largely from behavioral ecology. Although mate selection surely involves computations that are fundamentally different from predator detection, it is not so clear that the organization of the brain just happens to match the theoretical divisions of behavioral ecology. The concept of 'object' is obviously quite abstract, yet it is equally obvious that it is an essential concept for reasoning about mates, predators, kin, etc. The same goes for other 'abstract' abilities like categorization and signal detection. Ecologically valid reasoning about domains such as kinship may require cognitive abilities organized at higher levels of abstraction like 'recognition.' On the other hand, numerous experiments show that reasoning can be greatly facilitated when problems are stated in ecologically valid terms. Negating if-p-then-q statements becomes transparently easy when the content of such statements involves social exchange, for example. The theoretical integration of more abstract, informationally valid domains with less abstract, ecologically valid domains remains a central problem for evolutionary psychology.
3. Evolutionary psychology (and adaptationism in general) has devoted considerable theoretical attention to the issue of design, the first link in the causal chain leading from phenotype structure to reproductive outcome, but has lumped every other link into the category 'reproductive problem.' This failure to theorize about successive links can lead to spectacular failures of the 'design' approach. Three examples: 1) evidence of design clearly identifies bipedalism as an adaptation, but what 'problem' it solved is not at all obvious, nor does the 'evidence of design' philosophy provide much guidance (though more detailed functional analyses of bipedalism are further constraining the set of possible solutions). 2) Language shows clear evidence of design, and there are several plausible reproductive advantages to having language, so why don't many other animals have language? 3) It can be very difficult to determine whether simple traits are adaptations simply because there is insufficient evidence of design. Menopause may be an adaptation, but it has too few 'features' to say based on evidence of design alone (some 'features' of menopause, like bone loss, seem to indicate that it is not an adaptation). Very simple traits will not always yield to a 'design analysis,' simply because there isn't enough to grab onto.
4. Evolutionary psychology is founded on a model of ancestral human reproductive ecology (the EEA), yet the current version of this model is woefully out of date. Life history theory, the sub-discipline of biology devoted to understanding the fundamental aspects of the reproductive ecologies of plant and animals, has made enormous strides in the last decade or so. Little of this work has entered the 'mainstream' of human evolutionary psychology. Part of the problem is that the units of analysis for life history theorists (e.g., body size, mortality rates, taxonomic categories) are quite different than those used by adaptationists (e.g., strategies, design elements). Yet life history arguments are central to much work in evolutionary psychology (e.g., parental investment). Evolutionary psychologists need to get up to speed on the current state of the art in life history theory.
Hunter-gatherer theory is a related issue. Evolutionary psychology uses an odd mix of Kalahari and tropical Amazonian ethnography for its basic model of the EEA. Although much (if not most) work by evolutionary psychologists relies on indisputable features of the EEA such as women got pregnant and men didn't, it is time for evolutionary psychology to start talking more seriously with archaeologists and paleoanthropologists. We know a lot more about the past than we did even 10 years ago, and some of what we thought we knew has now been called into question.
5. Convergent evolution vs. phylogenetic inertia. In contrast to early approaches to the evolution of human behavior that emphasized chimp or gorilla models, evolutionary psychology relies heavily on convergent evolution type arguments. The emphasis is on functional design, with little attention paid to traits derived by descent from recent and not-so-recent ancestors. Birds are as likely to be used as models as are baboons or bonobos. Functional arguments also typically pay little attention to phylogenetic constraints. Although it is not exactly clear what kinds of constraints human ancestry might place on human cognition, it surely places some. A synthesis of primate cognitive ethology and human evolutionary psychology that takes into account both the convergent evolution of similar psychologies in response to similar ecological problems, as well as phylogenetic history, has significant potential (as most primatologists would argue, I think).
6. Finally, even the best work in evolutionary psychology remains incomplete. Two examples: 1) evolutionary psychologists have made several predictions about mate preferences, and these predictions have been verified in a broad range of cross-cultural contexts. However, the empirical data have not been subjected to many alternative interpretations. It is possible that they can be accounted for by other theories, and it will be difficult to be fully convinced that the evolutionary interpretation is correct until it withstands challenges from competing paradigms. The record on this account, however, is quite good so far. Competing theories such as the "social role", "structural powerlessness" and "economic inequality of the sexes" hypotheses have been tested in a number of studies and have received little, if any, support. 2) The cheater detection hypothesis, on the other hand, has withstood a blizzard of competing hypotheses, but it has been confirmed in only a very limited number of cross-cultural contexts: Europe, and one Amazonian group. Adaptations must be universal, and the variation seen in even the limited cross-cultural cheater detection studies suggests that further studies are warranted.
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/epfaq/problems.html
1. Evolutionary psychology is attempting to elucidate the functional organization of the brain even though researchers currently cannot, with very few exceptions, directly study complex neural circuits. This is like attempting to discover the functions of the lungs, heart, etc., without being able to conduct dissections. Although psychological evidence indisputably reveals that cognition has structure, it is less clear that it does so with sufficient resolution to provide convincing evidence of functional design. Can the current state of the art in cognitive psychology successfully cleave human nature at its joints? Maybe, maybe not. Despite these reservations, it is worth noting that virtually every research university in the world has a psychology department. Grounding psychology in an explicit framework of evolved function cannot help but improve attempts to unveil the workings of the brain. It is far easier to find something if you have some idea of what it is you are looking for.
2. The domains of cognition proposed by evolutionary psychologists are often pretty ad hoc. Traditionally, cognitive psychologists have assumed that cognitive abilities are relatively abstract: categorization, signal detection, recognition, memory, logic, inference, etc. Evolutionary psychology proposes a radically orthogonal set of 'ecologically valid' domains and reasoning abilities: predator detection, toxin avoidance, incest avoidance, mate selection, mating strategies, social exchange, and so on. These latter domains and abilities are derived largely from behavioral ecology. Although mate selection surely involves computations that are fundamentally different from predator detection, it is not so clear that the organization of the brain just happens to match the theoretical divisions of behavioral ecology. The concept of 'object' is obviously quite abstract, yet it is equally obvious that it is an essential concept for reasoning about mates, predators, kin, etc. The same goes for other 'abstract' abilities like categorization and signal detection. Ecologically valid reasoning about domains such as kinship may require cognitive abilities organized at higher levels of abstraction like 'recognition.' On the other hand, numerous experiments show that reasoning can be greatly facilitated when problems are stated in ecologically valid terms. Negating if-p-then-q statements becomes transparently easy when the content of such statements involves social exchange, for example. The theoretical integration of more abstract, informationally valid domains with less abstract, ecologically valid domains remains a central problem for evolutionary psychology.
3. Evolutionary psychology (and adaptationism in general) has devoted considerable theoretical attention to the issue of design, the first link in the causal chain leading from phenotype structure to reproductive outcome, but has lumped every other link into the category 'reproductive problem.' This failure to theorize about successive links can lead to spectacular failures of the 'design' approach. Three examples: 1) evidence of design clearly identifies bipedalism as an adaptation, but what 'problem' it solved is not at all obvious, nor does the 'evidence of design' philosophy provide much guidance (though more detailed functional analyses of bipedalism are further constraining the set of possible solutions). 2) Language shows clear evidence of design, and there are several plausible reproductive advantages to having language, so why don't many other animals have language? 3) It can be very difficult to determine whether simple traits are adaptations simply because there is insufficient evidence of design. Menopause may be an adaptation, but it has too few 'features' to say based on evidence of design alone (some 'features' of menopause, like bone loss, seem to indicate that it is not an adaptation). Very simple traits will not always yield to a 'design analysis,' simply because there isn't enough to grab onto.
4. Evolutionary psychology is founded on a model of ancestral human reproductive ecology (the EEA), yet the current version of this model is woefully out of date. Life history theory, the sub-discipline of biology devoted to understanding the fundamental aspects of the reproductive ecologies of plant and animals, has made enormous strides in the last decade or so. Little of this work has entered the 'mainstream' of human evolutionary psychology. Part of the problem is that the units of analysis for life history theorists (e.g., body size, mortality rates, taxonomic categories) are quite different than those used by adaptationists (e.g., strategies, design elements). Yet life history arguments are central to much work in evolutionary psychology (e.g., parental investment). Evolutionary psychologists need to get up to speed on the current state of the art in life history theory.
Hunter-gatherer theory is a related issue. Evolutionary psychology uses an odd mix of Kalahari and tropical Amazonian ethnography for its basic model of the EEA. Although much (if not most) work by evolutionary psychologists relies on indisputable features of the EEA such as women got pregnant and men didn't, it is time for evolutionary psychology to start talking more seriously with archaeologists and paleoanthropologists. We know a lot more about the past than we did even 10 years ago, and some of what we thought we knew has now been called into question.
5. Convergent evolution vs. phylogenetic inertia. In contrast to early approaches to the evolution of human behavior that emphasized chimp or gorilla models, evolutionary psychology relies heavily on convergent evolution type arguments. The emphasis is on functional design, with little attention paid to traits derived by descent from recent and not-so-recent ancestors. Birds are as likely to be used as models as are baboons or bonobos. Functional arguments also typically pay little attention to phylogenetic constraints. Although it is not exactly clear what kinds of constraints human ancestry might place on human cognition, it surely places some. A synthesis of primate cognitive ethology and human evolutionary psychology that takes into account both the convergent evolution of similar psychologies in response to similar ecological problems, as well as phylogenetic history, has significant potential (as most primatologists would argue, I think).
6. Finally, even the best work in evolutionary psychology remains incomplete. Two examples: 1) evolutionary psychologists have made several predictions about mate preferences, and these predictions have been verified in a broad range of cross-cultural contexts. However, the empirical data have not been subjected to many alternative interpretations. It is possible that they can be accounted for by other theories, and it will be difficult to be fully convinced that the evolutionary interpretation is correct until it withstands challenges from competing paradigms. The record on this account, however, is quite good so far. Competing theories such as the "social role", "structural powerlessness" and "economic inequality of the sexes" hypotheses have been tested in a number of studies and have received little, if any, support. 2) The cheater detection hypothesis, on the other hand, has withstood a blizzard of competing hypotheses, but it has been confirmed in only a very limited number of cross-cultural contexts: Europe, and one Amazonian group. Adaptations must be universal, and the variation seen in even the limited cross-cultural cheater detection studies suggests that further studies are warranted.
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/epfaq/problems.html
here is just one scientist telling why evo psych fails. there are many many more REAL scientists explain why this fails. it is an easy search.
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you know. this was my first "duh" calling out this crap. why the hell would i want an old man
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#97
This is evo psyche we're talking about. Evolution doesn't happen over thousands of years. n/t
kcr
Sep 2014
#113
now we take today, and create it into story telling of the past, to make it into
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#123
not to mention a good segment of our male society chants, once a girl hits puberty, free game.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#356
you know, the average age difference between married couples is 2.3 yrs. lol
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#344
male sperm starts deteriorating at 24. it would behoove a woman to grab 24 and under. maybe risking
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#66
the way man manipulates in the name of science. for mans story telling as fact. science. lol
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#74
uh, ya. men did consciously create these rules. duh. lol. like we are doing in this very thread.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#99
seriously? how about dominance and power and control. no questions asked cause god or
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#106
because they could kill them, if they did not buckle under. ya think? they cant now. all changes.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#119
yes, this is what has happened. Men used religion to sell a bill of goods that the gods are men -
Tuesday Afternoon
Sep 2014
#238
put up a prime 25 yr old man and an average 40 yr old. are you really suggesting a
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#309
i am saying it is story telling and i too can come up with a story. so do not tell me it is
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#339
i do not even know where to start... with this post. i ahve made so many statements thru out,
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#350
even if certain behavioral traits are reinforced by evolution, it's not the final story.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#372
i am supposed to like pink, per men, because women picked berries. i am suppose to want an old man
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#374
and a mere couple three decaes ago, that very argument is what helped to keep women
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#384
the reasons for laws made to subjagate women, was that women biologically did not have
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#390
i do not like, nor do i feel the validity of evo psychology. i think it is a flawed soft science.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#398
you totaly ignored all my points in your reply. i just realize. all the points defining
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#386
you miss the point. pink. society has decided pink is a girls color. in the past pink was a boys
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#394
It's not just "rare diseases." Aged sperm are at higher risk for producing mentally ill offspring.
Ampersand Unicode
Sep 2014
#501
ah. the women want the old man cause he is wise, lol. as his days are counted? lol
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#188
we really do not know how it worked out. funny how male story telling shifted the fable
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#326
point. and it wont be glorifying make sexuality. ergo, it is irrelevant. like this is not obvious.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#333
There's a purely biological reason why women would have less age preference than men.
Xithras
Sep 2014
#330
mens sperm starts degrading at 24. womens productive system starts in mid 30's. nt
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#337
defective sperm as in handicapped children. i am not gonna do the research, but read up on old sperm
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#377
lower iq, autism, adhd, decreased fertility, genetic problems, miscarriage for the woman of any ....
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#432
sticking point for me- everyone blamed Mom for my brother's "emotional" disease way back when
bettyellen
Sep 2014
#441
do i find a 25 yr old man attractive? well sure. if he wanted ot have sex with me, well sure, if
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#378
all the millions upon millions upon millions of women that have married poor,
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#453
"I think you are confusing social interaction with biological evolution. Which is 'bad science.''
Starry Messenger
Sep 2014
#96
all the men, having mid life crisis, fucking up their life, cause they cannot let go of youth.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#109
There's no fool like an old fool! Lol, a dating website, probably a bunch of old guys who are
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#144
"His bubblegum phony pop psych is his hallmark. I'm embarrassed for him. " We will have to be
bettyellen
Sep 2014
#246
evolution told us, women were emotional and incapable of taking care of self. 4 decades, we speed
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#41
I just read a BBC article that said 30% of older women date younger men.
Starry Messenger
Sep 2014
#62
and that will probably end up about the same as for men. why? because women can now do it.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#68
or. i am getting old, i need youth to make me feel young again. either way. lol. nt
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#125
this is used as a religion in the name of science to dominate and control, no different than
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#30
if i, along with real scientists, argue this bogus garbage, we have a problem with science.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#50
yet, i do not see you adn other men address your disagreements with men as ... silly.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#61
btw. that would be the very silent conditioning we do of the sexes, that allow results like these
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#63
well. unless i see, i am not buying. it is not a norm. something we do. we have created silly...
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#86
this is not even about biological instincts. it is all about creating a religion, in the name of
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#71
Amazing how the same men defend their need to embody stone age biological imperatives
Starry Messenger
Sep 2014
#98
as i said, a new religion for men in the name of science to dominate and control, patriarchy.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#184
the scientific community has already well debunked it. you are behind the eight ball. nt
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#208
which would not have to do with beginning of time, but the time man created law where woman are
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#365
"Women’s and Men’s Sexual Preferences and Activities with Respect to the Partner’s Age: ..."
Cerridwen
Sep 2014
#6
i read it. i just feel men are conditioned into fantasy for the ideal partner and women live in the
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#381
wrong. a woman want man her age. per study, man does not want same. wants the young woman. a woman
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#403
actually that is another one of those myths men have hung onto. women are more visually cued
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#412
so a man any age wants 20 something. the 20 something want only the 20 something. so.... man
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#19
Correct...As a hot young 20-something, I had middle and old aged guys hit on me all the time and
whathehell
Sep 2014
#90
who doesnt appreciate young and healthy. the difference is those that live in reality and those
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#32
personally, i feel that is the more natural way we evolve as we age. i know it is the same
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#47
Glad I never took your advice, 'cause I dated, married, and gave birth after 35.
winter is coming
Sep 2014
#56
Wow. I believe a person of any age if she/he so chooses, can find love and companionship.
oregonjen
Sep 2014
#65
it is a society, like this study, with the intent to throw away older women.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#142
i agree totally, and i do not stay queit either. man, does not ge to define me. man....
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#152
a lot of peope are into sports, facebook etc which i never got into, do you live life by following
JI7
Sep 2014
#342
Miley Cyrus shared the same "wisdom" recently. Was probably mollied out, so you know...
bettyellen
Sep 2014
#261
tree, all my sexual life, men have defined my sexuality. at 20 i was suppose to want the 40 yr old
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#325
Not really. Finding someone sexually attractive is only part of what makes them attractive overall.
jeff47
Sep 2014
#348
ya know. it never ends. gotta get that toe in control and dominance at all cost. nt
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#34
It would be pretty simple, and make sense, if only 20 something year old women were fertile
kcr
Sep 2014
#67
Do you realize that evolution happens over hundreds of thousands to millions of years?
kcr
Sep 2014
#149
No one is asserting that older women are or have ever been preferred over younger women
kcr
Sep 2014
#161
Oh, really? No man ever dates, mates and has relationships with older women? Never happens?
kcr
Sep 2014
#174
I think I understand it quite a bit better than you understand the concept of biology n/t
kcr
Sep 2014
#224
every culture use to say women did not have the capacity to take care of ourselves. once laws were
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#170
and not all men want the twenty yr old and the number of women wanting 20 yr old is growing.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#187
Do you think war is a biological imperitive and therefore nothing can be done about it?
kcr
Sep 2014
#197
ha ha. actualy, didnt even take note of that post. i mostly ignore him. YOU,
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#313
I know. Daring to question men's sexual preferences and how they come to be is risky.
kcr
Sep 2014
#223
Wait a minute. Are you claiming that it's never okay to question whether anyhing is innate?
kcr
Sep 2014
#282
the whole argument is cavemen is so fuggin innately perceptive, that they would fine the mate that
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#126
that is so fuggin what it is. lol. also, another i see, they are not experienced enough to call
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#135
you know. some pimply ass kid aving the audacity to get all up in my face and telling me
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#141
all about denigrating women, even in iraq. even if it is a punk ass kid, denigrating a grown women.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#316
i watched an OP on an org with milf talking about a member that die, have a bunch of grown men
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#331
this OP created a thread, that is just priceless to me. i thank you. i have to get busy with life,
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#111
who is policing? it does matter when men tell us it is innate and to buy into bullshit.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#143
more. demanding we allow them to define my sexuality, experience in life, in the name of science. nt
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#154
laughing at this bullshit study is not policing. It's fucking OK Cupid, not rocket science.
bettyellen
Sep 2014
#265
"The findings are similar to data culled from the dating website OKCupid"
Union Scribe
Sep 2014
#280
these are the men having mid life crisis, not able to give up youth, willing ot destroy family
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#155
I find women of all ages attractive. And enjoy their company much more than I would....
Logical
Sep 2014
#196
You said those older men are out of luck if they can't find a willing 20 year old
The2ndWheel
Sep 2014
#287
There is a difference between someone being alone because they have narrow standards
kcr
Sep 2014
#304
if that is going to be your choice, then i would suggest take up whittlin' and walk the dog.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#206
youth is attractive for all of us. no special there. specifically with the post you replied to,
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#195
simply, i have yet gotten to a point where i am ignored as a sexual human being. i do not appreciate
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#216
I doubt any women at this point think I am sexy. But I do not mind them thinking other men are. nt
Logical
Sep 2014
#351
I only saw the three paragraphs above @ Time.com, no details of the Finnish study
bettyellen
Sep 2014
#439
thanks- am laughing at the old "men are more visually cued" bullshit- It's embarrassing that anyone
bettyellen
Sep 2014
#456
While I agree with those who say it is biology, I don't see any reason we can't try to
liberal_at_heart
Sep 2014
#230
What the survery doesn't say - when asked, men don't really want to MARRY them.....just FUCK them
Baclava
Sep 2014
#234
give me a couple mil in grant money and I'll find out why 20 y/o women prefer men worth billions
Baclava
Sep 2014
#253
Incorrect: Most men like OLDER women. Older men who like women in their 20's never really matured.
TheBlackAdder
Sep 2014
#276
Well, apparently not only is this not the case, but now I'm being compared to a homophobe
kcr
Sep 2014
#290
Yes. This same argument in a different context, and cue the whining about male bashing.
kcr
Sep 2014
#312
ah, but this study is sexually empowering and bolstering for men. hence, it is a win. regardless
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#320
i have seen this a few times where some criticism of some hetero male weirdness is compared
JI7
Sep 2014
#354
Is that a 'floppy' you have there when responding to a sexual attractiveness thread? nt
TheBlackAdder
Sep 2014
#502
{No shit, Sherlock}. I got it right away because that used to me one of my favorite come backs.
Tuesday Afternoon
Sep 2014
#462
i fgure the range of 5 yrs, plus or minus is our age. mostly. we cant really hit on bdays, lol
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#407
there is nothing to suggest it is "natural" and that they cannot help themselves.
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#488
A 20-year old woman is not necessarily better able to bear children than a 13-year-old.
Manifestor_of_Light
Sep 2014
#489
yes. we call creationism what it is. storytelling. we are just clever enough to see the story tellin
seabeyond
Sep 2014
#499
"Evo-Psych crap has validated my stupidity! I've never felt more enabled to be Creepy Old Guy!"
LanternWaste
Sep 2014
#500