General Discussion

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)

49. We failed to support the rebels earlier, so they had to turn to uglier elements.

Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:09 PM

Oct 2014

As the jihadis had the strongest clandestine network and supplies, rebels increasingly had to reach accommodations with them or eventually join them. Over time they became ideologically radicalized through long association and mutual support. In other words, Syria is one instance where inaction on our part was the problem.

And it's not like we didn't have justification to support the rebels, given that Putin was supporting Assad with advanced weaponry - the rules of balance permitted us to arm the rebels, but we were so terrified of creating ISIS that our timidity actually made it happen anyway. Foreign policy is not simple.

But more importantly, the point of this discussion here isn't about forms of government, it's about the attitudes of the people. The only reason that toppling a despot would bring about such internecine religious chaos and violence is that the current state of Islam is profoundly authoritarian and intolerant, and you would have to drastically move the goalposts of morality in order to claim that that's not the case.

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Ben Affleck vs. Bill Maher on Islam: Bill's right. [View all] True Blue Door Oct 2014 OP

I think you make some good points but you detract from your own argument cali Oct 2014 #1

The current state of Islam in the most liberal Muslim-majority country (Turkey) True Blue Door Oct 2014 #20

oh please. First of all, you're wrong. secondly, did you know that Tunisia, for instance, cali Oct 2014 #25

Iran also has parliamentary gender quotas. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #36

+1 cheapdate Oct 2014 #60

-1. nt arthritisR_US Oct 2014 #154

+1 more. nt joeglow3 Oct 2014 #177

"There is no ethical option cheapdate Oct 2014 #183

Your absolutely right. My knee jerk reaction was arthritisR_US Oct 2014 #187

Great point. Marr Oct 2014 #119

Anyplace where phony crimes like "blasphemy" and "apostasy" exist hifiguy Oct 2014 #169

+10 demosincebirth Oct 2014 #203

And conveniently ignored your question about Indonesia. n/t Turborama Oct 2014 #107

The question was an attempt to change the subject. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #121

No, it was a question about the largest Muslim majority country in the world. Turborama Oct 2014 #137

***THREAD DEAD?*** These +++FACTS+++ go against Mahers point IMHO uponit7771 Oct 2014 #195

You introduce a strawman (moving to another "moderate" Islam country) to the issues of moderat Islam uponit7771 Oct 2014 #197

Sharia law is spreading in Indonesia. In one province it mr_liberal Oct 2014 #135

No, it isn't. There is no stoning in Indonesia. There are no Sharia courts outside Aceh Turborama Oct 2014 #139

Youre being defensive. mr_liberal Oct 2014 #140

Can you read? I said there are no Sharia courts outside Aceh, which is a tiny part of Indonesia. Turborama Oct 2014 #141

There are 5 million people in Aceh mr_liberal Oct 2014 #143

Women can be theocratic too. eom mr_liberal Oct 2014 #133

Well said. Affleck is a smart, terrific liberal, but Maher was right this time. valerief Oct 2014 #2

Indeed, the Hobby Lobby ruling smells like a harbinger. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #22

Mayer wants religion abolished. He is just as extreme as religious extremists. liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #3

Did Mayer say he wanted religion abolished? ZombieHorde Oct 2014 #4

I watched Religulous. He makes it pretty clear he wants religion abolished, and I do not think liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #6

Been a while since I saw that movie, ZombieHorde Oct 2014 #7

I watched with my daughter because she is atheist. She thinks he goes too far as well. liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #14

So there isn't any real evidence Mayer wants religion abolished, ZombieHorde Oct 2014 #16

I got the same take-away from Religulous as you. cheapdate Oct 2014 #63

Of course-- but that doesn't mean you have to respect their beliefs. Marr Oct 2014 #124

Maher. nt tblue37 Oct 2014 #128

Just an fyi, it's "Maher" not "Mayer". smirkymonkey Oct 2014 #77

Maher. nt tblue37 Oct 2014 #127

Maher. nt tblue37 Oct 2014 #126

Oops. :) nt ZombieHorde Oct 2014 #129

Lies breed ... GeorgeGist Oct 2014 #5

"He is just as extreme as religious extremists." sagat Oct 2014 #8

Has Bill Maher killed anyone, raped anyone, or denied someone rights for his lack of religion? Shoulders of Giants Oct 2014 #17

+1 valerief Oct 2014 #59

But, unlike the religious zealots who slaughter in the name of their own particular brand Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #66

I've never heard him say anything of the sort. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #23

Abolished? Really? Silent3 Oct 2014 #51

Maher. nt tblue37 Oct 2014 #125

He doesnt want religion abolished. mr_liberal Oct 2014 #136

+2! LukeFL Oct 2014 #206

Does Maher advocates the murder of people skepticscott Oct 2014 #200

Which Liberals is Maher talking about? JaneyVee Oct 2014 #9

What are you referring to? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #24

But no liberals condone the extremist ideology or actions. JaneyVee Oct 2014 #26

Theocracy is not an extremist opinion in the Islamic world. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #39

There's no "Islamic world" YoungDemCA Oct 2014 #83

Islam believes in the Islamic world. It has a specific Koranic term for it. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #87

Yes they do.... AnalystInParadise Oct 2014 #145

Strongly agree with Affleck on this point and disagree with You, Maher, Sam Harris 2banon Oct 2014 #10

And yet our extemeists are not allowed to do the things you say they would do. Other people Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #15

And yet those extremists had little influence CJCRANE Oct 2014 #32

You have a point about Iraq, but our intervention in Libya True Blue Door Oct 2014 #41

How did Syria fall victim to ISIS? CJCRANE Oct 2014 #44

We failed to support the rebels earlier, so they had to turn to uglier elements. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #49

That didn't work in Libya CJCRANE Oct 2014 #53

Again, all we did in Libya was stop Gaddafi from massacring his people from the air. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #54

That was the cover story. CJCRANE Oct 2014 #55

That's a nonsensical conspiracy theory straight out of a Tea Party conference. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #57

Which groups did our allies support in Syria? CJCRANE Oct 2014 #64

What are you talking about? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #96

Look up Biden's speech at Harvard the other day. CJCRANE Oct 2014 #159

Nonsense, we took part in regime change. I suppose you ould claim that in order to Vattel Oct 2014 #112

Fundamentalism is almost always a response to rapid change cheapdate Oct 2014 #65

Reactions aren't multi-generational, so I doubt that applies here. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #70

Changes to the social order in the Gulf States have been recent, cheapdate Oct 2014 #74

I agree that the jihadis are a reaction, but conservative Islam is mainstream. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #100

precisely; the entire curve is shifted toward extremism in the islamic world. that is what i TheFrenchRazor Oct 2014 #153

The key word in your statement is "here." True Blue Door Oct 2014 #28

I've just re-read your OP, I didn't read it carefully the first time, my apology 2banon Oct 2014 #37

Yes, I think we basically agree. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #42

So AnalystInParadise Oct 2014 #146

AMEN AND AMEN!!! uponit7771 Oct 2014 #188

Two wrongs don't make it right Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #207

Wow... Rhinodawg Oct 2014 #209

Let me clarify Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #212

Excellent Post 2banon Oct 2014 #219

this is correct nt Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #11

Agree with you and Maher PAProgressive28 Oct 2014 #12

Ben is an international film star whose massive income depends on investment from and box office Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #13

Bull... joeybee12 Oct 2014 #19

What I said is absolutely factual. International film is all about pleasing internatinal viewers. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #30

Maher is homophobic? leftynyc Oct 2014 #155

oh please, the religion you are sticking up for is what is homophobic. m-lekktor Oct 2014 #196

That might explain it if he were timidly PC just to avoid controversy True Blue Door Oct 2014 #29

Get a clue...blanket condemnation of any religion is bigotry... joeybee12 Oct 2014 #18

No it's not. Religions are based upon fairy tails. totodeinhere Oct 2014 #40

+1 uponit7771 Oct 2014 #189

I agree customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #21

If all Muslims are bad how did the world produce Rumi? liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #27

You need to work on reading comprehension. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #31

Actually that was more of a response to the many responses in this thread that imply that liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #35

Many of us want to see religion disappear from the free and voluntary decision of individuals True Blue Door Oct 2014 #43

That includes Judaism, right? whatchamacallit Oct 2014 #168

It would, because anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #211

Nobody said all Muslims were bad. Not even close. arcane1 Oct 2014 #33

Even a broken clock is right twice a day AnalystInParadise Oct 2014 #147

"the only way to change that is to confront it - not be morally relativistic." Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2014 #34

Timid people exist, and always will. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #45

But they claim that is where they are at their finest.... Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2014 #86

Liberal parties are always bound to attract more than our fair share of squishy people. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #102

These type of Dems DON'T though. They try to claim the attacks are all in your mind. Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2014 #113

Some of them live in a perpetual state of Stockholm Syndrome because of their weakness. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #117

Those types also are satisfied with losing. Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2014 #138

Bill Mahr needs to lay off the WEED, penndragon69 Oct 2014 #38

How is he "out of line" here? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #46

So we as liberals easily point out the beheadings in Saudi Arabia. Lobo27 Oct 2014 #47

Saudi Arabia is a stain on the Earth. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #50

If nothing else Bill Maher has brought up an important discussion- KrazyinKS Oct 2014 #48

I think Islam has some basic structural flaws in its moral framework. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #52

I teach a lot of students from overseas CJCRANE Oct 2014 #75

So if 60% of your students voted to kill one of your other students for abandoning Islam... True Blue Door Oct 2014 #81

Brilliant Stuff - TBD Joe Turner Oct 2014 #105

Only if you admire flagrant bigotry and disinformation CrawlingChaos Oct 2014 #116

What, precisely, was flat-out bullshit? /nt Marr Oct 2014 #130

Are you kidding me? The whole thread reads like Pamela Gellar Lite! CrawlingChaos Oct 2014 #160

I completely agree with this analysis. n/t Turborama Oct 2014 #163

I notice you didn't actually cite anything. Marr Oct 2014 #164

Yes by all means AnalystInParadise Oct 2014 #148

I have no formal training outside of physical sciences, I just like to read and think. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #179

Care to back up your argument? leftynyc Oct 2014 #156

Post removed Post removed Oct 2014 #56

Damn you really got Maher wheniwasincongress Oct 2014 #62

+1. Good arguments. cheapdate Oct 2014 #58

Maher begins with the fucked-up belief... Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #61

He challenges the tenets of Islam. Its a fair challenge. cheapdate Oct 2014 #68

Really listen to what they said... Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #69

Did you read the poll I described in the OP? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #71

Yes, but even if all of that were true.... Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #72

LOL! So your defense of Islamic theocracy is that the oppression is limited to other Muslims? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #84

No, but the tenet of Maher's argument is that they all want to fucking kill us. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #85

That's your straw man, not his position. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #89

The words came out of his mouth. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #90

When? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #97

what happened when elections were held in Egypt again? snooper2 Oct 2014 #174

...as an expert of Islam? NO!! by some shit he heard on TV uponit7771 Oct 2014 #191

+1, same can be said about any religion... uponit7771 Oct 2014 #190

I agree that criticizing a belief system is not the same as criticizing a group of people Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #67

Yes, but it's a question of scale and relevance. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #73

I'm wondering how many Muslims you've met. CJCRANE Oct 2014 #76

I certainly haven't met as many as responded to the Washington Post poll. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #78

Hundreds and hundreds AnalystInParadise Oct 2014 #150

Fair enough. But I find it interesting that the GOP is modeling itself CJCRANE Oct 2014 #161

I live in an area that has a fairly significant Hassidic Jewish population. Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #92

The lifestyle is similar, but Hasidic Judaism's attitude toward apostasy True Blue Door Oct 2014 #98

Neither Chasidic Jews leftynyc Oct 2014 #157

The trouble is, it's far too easy to slip into the "All Muslims" line of thinking Scootaloo Oct 2014 #79

Bingo! Read my reply in this thread. I think we're on the same page here. n/t Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #91

Hence the distinction between Islam and Muslims. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #93

What distinction? Scootaloo Oct 2014 #108

his problem is that he paints all Muslims with the same brush. hrmjustin Oct 2014 #80

Oh great, another Islam-bashing thread YoungDemCA Oct 2014 #82

Oh great, another "tl;dr but here's my opinion anyway" comment. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #94

Well, it IS DU, after all. Scootaloo Oct 2014 #109

No, it's not new. It's been going on for a while and got worse since DU3's "no rules" policy came in Turborama Oct 2014 #111

Well AnalystInParadise Oct 2014 #151

When Bill Mahar and Rush Limbaugh share a talking point... bobclark86 Oct 2014 #88

Don't post lies in my thread. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #95

ooh, soo sorry... bobclark86 Oct 2014 #99

Grow up. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #103

How about you learn... bobclark86 Oct 2014 #106

LOL! Turborama Oct 2014 #142

Right, he's just said a majority of Muslims are fanatical extremists YoungDemCA Oct 2014 #132

Well AnalystInParadise Oct 2014 #152

Yeap, our western polls taken in their countries about their religion say they hate us... ok... uponit7771 Oct 2014 #193

+1 uponit7771 Oct 2014 #192

I'd buy Maher's point NuclearDem Oct 2014 #101

The only reason Israel is important is that Muslims obsess on it. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #110

As do many Americans, no? mr blur Oct 2014 #198

Sure, in reaction. But the source of the obsession is within the ME itself. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #199

So because he has a blind spot leftynyc Oct 2014 #158

No. I'd actually take him seriously if he applied his standards equally. NuclearDem Oct 2014 #165

Let me get this straight leftynyc Oct 2014 #167

No, but thanks for trying. NuclearDem Oct 2014 #172

Except it's not religion leftynyc Oct 2014 #173

And Hamas firing rockets into Israel NuclearDem Oct 2014 #175

Yawn leftynyc Oct 2014 #176

oh bullshit!! Israel has done nothing but expand and expand and expand its settlements Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #182

Your cut and paste job leftynyc Oct 2014 #184

I'm not claiming anything nice about Hamas Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #185

+INFINITY! (nt) LostOne4Ever Oct 2014 #201

How do you propose we confront it? Hippo_Tron Oct 2014 #104

We (as in we right here) can confront it by acknowledging it and not shying away from the subject True Blue Door Oct 2014 #115

The only two theocracies in the world are Iran and Vatican City. kwassa Oct 2014 #114

Thank you, I was getting short on my pedantry quota. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #118

It isn't common sense, it is bullshit. You don't get to make up your own definitions. kwassa Oct 2014 #120

What term would you use for states that murder people for criticizing religion? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #122

Intolerant. Murderous. kwassa Oct 2014 #131

Those are adjectives. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #181

Maher and Ben both robthesocialist Oct 2014 #123

"nihilistic PC priesthood"? rug Oct 2014 #134

IMO, Religion at times brings the worst in people. Lobo27 Oct 2014 #144

Bill is a hypocrite Hari Seldon Oct 2014 #149

+1, cause Christian crap don't stink to some... Also, he's giving Chrisitians a time limit as if uponit7771 Oct 2014 #194

"because it's theocracy" Android3.14 Oct 2014 #162

I agree with TBD and Bill Maher. yallerdawg Oct 2014 #166

Apostasy EX500rider Oct 2014 #170

Ugh. I hate that fact... riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #178

Maher has the better of the argument. hifiguy Oct 2014 #171

I think the 1st mistake is assuming all religions are equal.. EX500rider Oct 2014 #180

I completely agree with Maher. nt Sarah Ibarruri Oct 2014 #186

I was not gonna rec this due to Bill's Blinders when it come to Isreal LostOne4Ever Oct 2014 #202

I seen the show and I, totally, agree with Maher. I can't understand why some, here demosincebirth Oct 2014 #204

+infinity Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #215

Nice articulate post. I agree with all you said, but many ultra-liberals here will read the demosincebirth Oct 2014 #217

I feel the same way as you do. eom grossproffit Oct 2014 #216

I'm with LostOne4Ever on this. beam me up scottie Oct 2014 #205

But there is no single "Islam". CJCRANE Oct 2014 #208

Maher has the "right" to tell anyone anything. Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #213

Good point. But it reinforces my point that it's just opinion. There is no single definition. CJCRANE Oct 2014 #214

Ah...no Mister Nightowl Oct 2014 #210

Bill IS right. I've studied this formally and informally for at least twenty years. One doesn't have ancianita Oct 2014 #218

Indeed. I'm an atheist too, and I see the same thing you do. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #220

Bill is a bigot, a religious bigot, he's also funny most of the time but mulsh Oct 2014 #221

That's despicable, lying slander. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #222