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Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)

19. All that denied but very real sexual activity is part of the problem, Doug.

Tue Oct 7, 2014, 08:41 AM

Oct 2014

My first visit to the ME, I was 14, blond and cute as can be. You don't have to tell me what they want. . Living in a closet, fearing stronger men, these things are not features of freedom or acceptance.

I am, I will admit, surprised to learn that you lived openly and freely among the Saudis, in their neighborhoods, as a gay man that everyone knew was gay. Did you date Saudi men? Did you do much advocacy on behalf of the local LGBT population? If not, why not.

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I lived and worked openly gay in Saudi Arabia and the UAE for 25 years. [View all] Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 OP

K&R n/t Violet_Crumble Oct 2014 #1

Weren't YOU the lucky one, then: WinkyDink Oct 2014 #2

actually most gay western people and Asian people for that matter felt little or no oppression Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #3

Your notion of no oppression is not like mine.... Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #7

I'm not claiming it is an enlightened liberal society Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #14

All that denied but very real sexual activity is part of the problem, Doug. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #19

I was not involved with any Saudi men Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #21

And you lived as an out gay man in regular Saudi neighborhoods? Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #28

I lived in a normal neighborhood in the UAE - but in Saudi I lived on compounds Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #31

What was it like for lesbians? nt valerief Oct 2014 #103

as far as foreign Lesbians - I would say they could live their own lives fairly freely Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #105

So, you're averring, then, that it was just like USA back in the old days? MADem Oct 2014 #68

from what I have been told by those who are far more experienced in personal relationships Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #72

Well, yes, but that's more of a cultural thing--it doesn't always mean what you're saying it means. MADem Oct 2014 #83

"and sit on a tribunal that puts a gay guy to death on the other hand." So true, and so sad. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #140

Have you tried to figure out, why, OldEurope Oct 2014 #118

I find a milder version of the same idea in the Philippines Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #120

True of most of the world. Men can fuck all the men they like, as long as-- eridani Oct 2014 #146

well, that is one way to put it Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #147

It sounds like "Republican gay." nt valerief Oct 2014 #102

Same thing. Baptist Gay. Latter Day Gay. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #106

Yes. theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #125

LOL get the red out Oct 2014 #128

So the Muslim gay community is out and public? riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #12

no, I am not Muslim and I am only a citizen of the U.S. Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #17

The Western World understands it Doug. I see it as a form of deep denial of truth. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #25

Completely agree with you, 100%, here. Most of us know anatomy, closeupready Oct 2014 #87

It looks like nobody will accept simply what your experience was. pangaia Oct 2014 #35

If its such a common subtext, why are LGBT people hunted and punished under the law? riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #46

I am not glossing over anything. I am reporting my personal experience Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #50

If nobody cares about it, why the ferocity in prosecution? riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #60

I don't understand it either Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #63

The juxtaposition of "commonly accepted" with 10000 lashes riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #64

well -all I can tell you is talk to other gay people who lived and worked in the Middle East and Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #65

Because laws don't serve the people's needs, not in the ME and not here valerief Oct 2014 #104

Women can't drive though, right? Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #78

Correct - in Saudi Arabia women can't drive and that sounds pretty damned oppressive to me too Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #81

It's not just that they can't drive,they can't leave sufrommich Oct 2014 #113

Why are Women not allowed to drive and walk freely about with their hair in the wind? seveneyes Oct 2014 #4

It's because of Wahhabism. And that's Saudi Arabia, not the entire Muslim world n/t Violet_Crumble Oct 2014 #5

The subject of this thread is Saudi Arabia, not the entire Muslim world. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #8

The OP title says UAE as well, and mentions the Muslim world... Violet_Crumble Oct 2014 #9

He also said other things such as they don't accept their own gay kids. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #15

gee, I didn't know I said that Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #10

It's a satrical reading of your views 'they won't accept their gay children and sometimes they Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #13

I'm not selling anything and I am not expressing any views or opinions whatsoever Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #24

Sorry--somehow this ended up posted in the wrong spot. MADem Oct 2014 #71

The OP claims nothing of the sort. pangaia Oct 2014 #37

as far as I known Saudi is the only Islamic country that has that rule about drving and mandates Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #6

The questoin asked was 'why do they not let women drive' not 'is SA the only country that has that Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #11

+1000 theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #16

it is a stupid rule. They should have changed it a long time ago Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #18

Absolutely!!!!! get the red out Oct 2014 #129

There are asinine hijab rules in Iran now, too (not before under shah). Women can drive, though. nt MADem Oct 2014 #73

Well, under the Shah, the secret police could rape whoever they wanted, to "force confession" Scootaloo Oct 2014 #152

And under the Guardian council, you think it's all fun and games? MADem Oct 2014 #167

Well, you were griping about theirwearing hair coverings Scootaloo Oct 2014 #187

The whole manteau/hijab business is simply representative of more horrific things--it's not a start MADem Oct 2014 #190

In Qatar Hobo Oct 2014 #148

I was stationed on a USN flag ship in Bahrain in the late 80's m-lekktor Oct 2014 #20

yes, Western people are treated with lots of favoritism - no doubt about that Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #22

Who would have thunk Riyadh is a Middle Eastern version of Chelsea, West Hollywood, and Fire Island? DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #23

that it was not. Riyadh is got to be the most soulless city I have ever visited. The place has no Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #26

Clearly DouglasCarpenter didn't think that Scootaloo Oct 2014 #153

If you think it's adherence to hatred... DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #155

DouglasCarpenter is relating his experiences in Saudi Arabia. Scootaloo Oct 2014 #156

Arguing with anecdotes or one's personal experience as a basis is always fraught with danger, ergo DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #159

The only argument presented is that Saudi Arabi's culture isn't a cartoon Scootaloo Oct 2014 #160

I was using hyperbole or sarcasm... DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #162

I know about these reports a I have scene the youtube videos - I'm only reporting the on-the-ground Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #157

On the ground? You lived in a COMPOUND in SA--you might as well have been living in Cleveland. MADem Oct 2014 #169

I worked with lots and lots of Saudis - I knew many, many gay people who lived downtown Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #171

See post 173. MADem Oct 2014 #175

You most have been working amidst an elite� people wealthy enough to live in a protected bubble. KittyWampus Oct 2014 #27

My first job was in a remote village in the mountains in a tribal region - I did live on a western Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #34

forget it. it's a lost cause here on DU. There is a very loud although I have to wonder just how liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #29

Yep - many "open-minded" liberals here who think it is cool DrDan Oct 2014 #154

Jeeze, what's next - "Saudi Arabia is a great vacation hot-spot for Jews"? bullwinkle428 Oct 2014 #30

no, actually I an glad I don't live there anymore. I am only trying to explain what it was like Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #32

What is was like for gay men -- It's only hellish for HALF of the human race, then. whathehell Oct 2014 #42

the society is very oppressive toward women. It is not possible for any rational person to deny that Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #47

That seems consistent with things I have read over the years Lurks Often Oct 2014 #33

That is a fair statement Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #36

I think you mean for American and foreign MEN.. whathehell Oct 2014 #43

I would say most western women who worked there enjoyed theit time there. But westerners in general Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #48

I hope you can understand this. For me, the way I was raised, it is not good to enjoy being treated Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #54

ANY western person living, working or even vacationing in ANY developing country is almost certainly Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #58

Of course. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #69

I guess I must have missed the part where I claimed that Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #70

They still can't go anywhere without hijab/chador or a male guardian--so it's only "OK" on the MADem Oct 2014 #100

Many professionals, women in particular, simply won't go there... whathehell Oct 2014 #126

I'm not saying that the Middle East is some enlightened land Lurks Often Oct 2014 #53

You say you "doubt" foreign women face any significant challenges, which whathehell Oct 2014 #127

Did you bother to read the link? Lurks Often Oct 2014 #137

No, I was mistakenly responding to another post -- It happens. whathehell Oct 2014 #138

I read the OP Lurks Often Oct 2014 #150

Really? whathehell Oct 2014 #168

Aren't you funny with your poor reading skills Lurks Often Oct 2014 #183

Aren't you pathetic with your poor writing skills whathehell Oct 2014 #189

Lol, you're the one that started this sub thread with poor manners Lurks Often Oct 2014 #196

Responding to the wrong person is "poor manners", LOL? whathehell Oct 2014 #199

It sounds like you're doing much better than the average woman there. whathehell Oct 2014 #38

no doubt about that - the society is very opressive toward woman Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #39

Fabulous.. whathehell Oct 2014 #40

I thought and still think it was terrible. Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #41

We're gilding the lily here. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #44

there's little if any acceptance of people openly identifying themselves as gay in the Islamic world Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #45

It's a tradition in Saudi Arabia for men to hold hands. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #51

"whenever a man and woman are alone in a room the third person is Satan." That is just... nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #141

It is the same way here. The fundamental religionists preach against and seek to punish gay people Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #56

I would have to agree with that.. whathehell Oct 2014 #132

I can't help but wonder how much that had to do with you being a foreigner eallen Oct 2014 #49

well - I never met a Saudi who self-identified as gay Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #52

Yeah. Change comes late even for the U.S. Baitball Blogger Oct 2014 #55

Is it still true SA does not allow Churche or other house of worship built there? hrmjustin Oct 2014 #57

yes, however there are two churches on the Aramco compound in Khobar and of course there are chapels Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #59

So there is no religious freedom. hrmjustin Oct 2014 #66

as far as Saudi Arabia is concerned - that would pretty much be the case Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #67

And the UAE? hrmjustin Oct 2014 #94

there are churches in the UAE and Hindu temples too. It is not a western democracy but it is a lot Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #97

That is good to hear. hrmjustin Oct 2014 #98

I worked in Saudi Arabia for 11 years fxstc Oct 2014 #61

Maybe what you are describing is how gay folks used to be treated in the USA DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #62

The definition of homosexuality may be different CJCRANE Oct 2014 #75

In all of your time in Suadi Arabia.... NCTraveler Oct 2014 #74

I met one UAE national who did Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #77

Your replies aren't matching the tone of your op in any way. NCTraveler Oct 2014 #82

the premise of my OP is that I was openly gay in Saudi Arabia and it was well known by everyone I Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #89

Yes, I think you have fully argued against the premise of your op with your own replies. NCTraveler Oct 2014 #107

no I worked in a hospital along side local people all the time Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #108

You were an infidel; had you been a practicing Muslim you would have had trouble. BIG trouble. MADem Oct 2014 #173

I knew only a few gay Muslims - but they were married with children - they never had any problems Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #176

I think your commentary and "No problem, dude" attitude is disturbing in the extreme. MADem Oct 2014 #177

I guess if I just made up a bunch of lies It would be less disturbing - but I am reporting what I Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #178

The one suffering from cognitive dissonance is YOU. MADem Oct 2014 #179

I'm simply reporting what I saw,lived and experienced for 25 years- living and working closely with Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #180

You're simply turning a blind eye to persecution and discrimination because it didn't touch YOU. MADem Oct 2014 #181

It didn't touch anyone else I knew either except when I was working the remote tribal region of Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #185

So, those people at Amnesty International are a buncha liars? Those people pleading for asylum MADem Oct 2014 #191

I don't understand the contradiction either - Lots and lots of openly gay foreign workers in a place Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #192

Post removed Post removed Oct 2014 #193

This is probably a bit TL/DR, but I hope you'll try to wade through it and I hope I am expressing MADem Oct 2014 #197

I was certainly treated with more deferance and respect when I worked in the Middle East than when Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #198

Had you been "one of them," though, that deference and respect would have given way to MADem Oct 2014 #202

I think the article is a bit more nuanced than what you are describing Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #204

It's plausible deniability--as someone upthread averred, it's "Republican Gay"--but with the added MADem Oct 2014 #205

" And I do not buy that all this anti-Muslim hate..." DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #194

I agree Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #195

Alert! Alert! We've got a "tone" post! valerief Oct 2014 #109

It was the polite way of saying something else. lol. nt. NCTraveler Oct 2014 #110

You must be a "very serious person." valerief Oct 2014 #111

I wrote that up thread. The OP stipulates being GLTB is no biggie. It's all cool riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #116

I didn't say that and you know I didn't say that. I am writing about my personal experience Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #122

Your OP is a "contradiction" of pretty much every other post you've made in the thread riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #123

well I knew lots and lots of very openly gay western people who worked in the middle east Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #124

What would happen if a Saudi man or woman identified as gay... DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #76

I have to admit that I can't really imagine that happening. Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #79

Isn't that the acid test, bro? DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #85

it is not a liberal democracy - that's for sure. Of course I could not have imagined anyone Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #92

But you could now. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #93

well that's true. Both societies advanced a lot since the 1960's - considering where they were at in Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #95

But people did so identify and advocate, not just in the 60's but in previous decades.... Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #164

Off to the car park, and off with their head! MADem Oct 2014 #84

UAE is very different from Saudi Arabia, though. mainer Oct 2014 #80

oh yeah - Culturally they come from the same sort of tribal heritage Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #86

My impression is that CJCRANE Oct 2014 #88

I also don't buy the rationale, "they have to do gay sex because of segregation closeupready Oct 2014 #90

you're probably right about that. In the Philippines where there is a fair amount of mixing between Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #91

They are closeted. Some call it being on the DL, the down low. Denial is the opposite of acceptance. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #99

you do understand that in many non-western societies the vast majority of males have had numerous Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #149

Then they are all bisexual hypocrites, punishing others for the very thing they do, according to you Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #161

Not just Islamic countries - you will find around th world many places where most young men have Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #163

Interestingly, in the global survey they did last year, people in the Philippines expressed higher nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #142

Your mileage may vary. badtoworse Oct 2014 #96

I'm glad you were treated well, BUT eissa Oct 2014 #101

I find this true in countries with majority religions that oppress women. Cleita Oct 2014 #114

False Equivalence Fail. whathehell Oct 2014 #131

You assumed I was talking about European countries. Cleita Oct 2014 #133

Yes, and I didn't know you were describing events of "more than 50 years ago" whathehell Oct 2014 #134

And the poor Swedish young ladies--they got the worst of it!!! MADem Oct 2014 #203

Extremely lucky if you were doing this openly... I lived for the last 12 years in the UAE and yes JCMach1 Oct 2014 #112

I was out in the sense that everybody that knew me and socialized with me knew I was gay Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #119

I was in Al Ain Abu Dhabi working at Tawam Hospital from August 1989 to November 1991 Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #151

All well and good, but I have watched the CID arrest numbers of people at establishments that cater JCMach1 Oct 2014 #182

But Doug has never seen that so... riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #184

and doesn't compute with the experience of the vast majority of Gay foreign people living and Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #186

Ah, The Reagan Years...hardly the "Age of Enlightenment" when it came to gay issues. MADem Oct 2014 #206

Do you think you would have found things as easy if you'd been a native? N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #115

if I had gotten married and had kids - then I could do pretty much what I wanted without a label Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #117

It's the Greco-Roman way that dates back to biblical times in the ME. Cleita Oct 2014 #121

Do as you are told and we won't turn you in. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #130

450 lashes? That is beyond barbaric. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #143

Barbaric indeed, and current news. The OP's claims seem lacking in context when he claims: Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #158

If nothing else, he doesn't seem to have put his own (very fortunate) experiences in enough context. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #170

my experience was the experience of the vast overwhelming majority of western gay people Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #174

I'm not saying it is gay friendly - I'm reporting the fact that I knew lots and lots of "screaming Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #188

I am a woman. Brigid Oct 2014 #135

Me either... whathehell Oct 2014 #139

What would happen if a gay person took the original post literally.. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #136

I would hope most people of any orientation are smarter than that. Regardless, I see your point. n/t nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #144

anywhere anyone moves - it is best to assess the situation for one's self before they do anything Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #145

Reading about Shrien Dewani, it's interesting in light of this thread closeupready Oct 2014 #165

my next obnoxiousdrunk Oct 2014 #166

Riyadh is the most boring, soulless city I have ever visited in my life Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #172

The challenge is gays in many M E nations have no protection by law or custom. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #200

I agree - there is no real rule of law - everything is very arbitrary Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #201