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MADem

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205. It's plausible deniability--as someone upthread averred, it's "Republican Gay"--but with the added

Thu Oct 9, 2014, 08:19 PM

Oct 2014

possibility of imprisonment, corporal punishment via the lash, or even execution if you're a powerless individual (like a Yemeni or Indonesian) or someone who has crossed a member of the House of Saud.

And that's what makes it so wrong.

That overlay of danger, of fear, of the potential for dire, life-ending consequences--no one, and I mean NO ONE, should have to live like that. It's soul - crushing. It's what the whole concept of equality--for women, for POC, for gays--is all about, to end that kind of thing.

It's not just about being treated with dignity and respect, though that is a fair piece of it all. The piece that goes to one's core is the that people do not have to live in FEAR. And in KSA, that's what holds the whole mess together. There's an element of fear, that one day, someone could wake up and hear a knock at the door, and be forced to defend themselves--particularly if the wrong picture was taken, if the wrong person talked, if the wrong accusations were made....

Sure, someone might be more likely to call you a name here in USA--but the fact of the matter is this: even if you weren't gay, someone in USA might be more likely to call you a name. People in USA tend to shoot their mouths off more, they're less "fake polite" particularly in casual situations. And they're often nastier after a few drinks--and you're not going to see as much of that happening in KSA.

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I lived and worked openly gay in Saudi Arabia and the UAE for 25 years. [View all] Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 OP

K&R n/t Violet_Crumble Oct 2014 #1

Weren't YOU the lucky one, then: WinkyDink Oct 2014 #2

actually most gay western people and Asian people for that matter felt little or no oppression Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #3

Your notion of no oppression is not like mine.... Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #7

I'm not claiming it is an enlightened liberal society Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #14

All that denied but very real sexual activity is part of the problem, Doug. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #19

I was not involved with any Saudi men Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #21

And you lived as an out gay man in regular Saudi neighborhoods? Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #28

I lived in a normal neighborhood in the UAE - but in Saudi I lived on compounds Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #31

What was it like for lesbians? nt valerief Oct 2014 #103

as far as foreign Lesbians - I would say they could live their own lives fairly freely Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #105

So, you're averring, then, that it was just like USA back in the old days? MADem Oct 2014 #68

from what I have been told by those who are far more experienced in personal relationships Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #72

Well, yes, but that's more of a cultural thing--it doesn't always mean what you're saying it means. MADem Oct 2014 #83

"and sit on a tribunal that puts a gay guy to death on the other hand." So true, and so sad. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #140

Have you tried to figure out, why, OldEurope Oct 2014 #118

I find a milder version of the same idea in the Philippines Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #120

True of most of the world. Men can fuck all the men they like, as long as-- eridani Oct 2014 #146

well, that is one way to put it Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #147

It sounds like "Republican gay." nt valerief Oct 2014 #102

Same thing. Baptist Gay. Latter Day Gay. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #106

Yes. theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #125

LOL get the red out Oct 2014 #128

So the Muslim gay community is out and public? riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #12

no, I am not Muslim and I am only a citizen of the U.S. Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #17

The Western World understands it Doug. I see it as a form of deep denial of truth. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #25

Completely agree with you, 100%, here. Most of us know anatomy, closeupready Oct 2014 #87

It looks like nobody will accept simply what your experience was. pangaia Oct 2014 #35

If its such a common subtext, why are LGBT people hunted and punished under the law? riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #46

I am not glossing over anything. I am reporting my personal experience Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #50

If nobody cares about it, why the ferocity in prosecution? riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #60

I don't understand it either Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #63

The juxtaposition of "commonly accepted" with 10000 lashes riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #64

well -all I can tell you is talk to other gay people who lived and worked in the Middle East and Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #65

Because laws don't serve the people's needs, not in the ME and not here valerief Oct 2014 #104

Women can't drive though, right? Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #78

Correct - in Saudi Arabia women can't drive and that sounds pretty damned oppressive to me too Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #81

It's not just that they can't drive,they can't leave sufrommich Oct 2014 #113

Why are Women not allowed to drive and walk freely about with their hair in the wind? seveneyes Oct 2014 #4

It's because of Wahhabism. And that's Saudi Arabia, not the entire Muslim world n/t Violet_Crumble Oct 2014 #5

The subject of this thread is Saudi Arabia, not the entire Muslim world. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #8

The OP title says UAE as well, and mentions the Muslim world... Violet_Crumble Oct 2014 #9

He also said other things such as they don't accept their own gay kids. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #15

gee, I didn't know I said that Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #10

It's a satrical reading of your views 'they won't accept their gay children and sometimes they Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #13

I'm not selling anything and I am not expressing any views or opinions whatsoever Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #24

Sorry--somehow this ended up posted in the wrong spot. MADem Oct 2014 #71

The OP claims nothing of the sort. pangaia Oct 2014 #37

as far as I known Saudi is the only Islamic country that has that rule about drving and mandates Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #6

The questoin asked was 'why do they not let women drive' not 'is SA the only country that has that Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #11

+1000 theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #16

it is a stupid rule. They should have changed it a long time ago Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #18

Absolutely!!!!! get the red out Oct 2014 #129

There are asinine hijab rules in Iran now, too (not before under shah). Women can drive, though. nt MADem Oct 2014 #73

Well, under the Shah, the secret police could rape whoever they wanted, to "force confession" Scootaloo Oct 2014 #152

And under the Guardian council, you think it's all fun and games? MADem Oct 2014 #167

Well, you were griping about theirwearing hair coverings Scootaloo Oct 2014 #187

The whole manteau/hijab business is simply representative of more horrific things--it's not a start MADem Oct 2014 #190

In Qatar Hobo Oct 2014 #148

I was stationed on a USN flag ship in Bahrain in the late 80's m-lekktor Oct 2014 #20

yes, Western people are treated with lots of favoritism - no doubt about that Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #22

Who would have thunk Riyadh is a Middle Eastern version of Chelsea, West Hollywood, and Fire Island? DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #23

that it was not. Riyadh is got to be the most soulless city I have ever visited. The place has no Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #26

Clearly DouglasCarpenter didn't think that Scootaloo Oct 2014 #153

If you think it's adherence to hatred... DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #155

DouglasCarpenter is relating his experiences in Saudi Arabia. Scootaloo Oct 2014 #156

Arguing with anecdotes or one's personal experience as a basis is always fraught with danger, ergo DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #159

The only argument presented is that Saudi Arabi's culture isn't a cartoon Scootaloo Oct 2014 #160

I was using hyperbole or sarcasm... DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #162

I know about these reports a I have scene the youtube videos - I'm only reporting the on-the-ground Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #157

On the ground? You lived in a COMPOUND in SA--you might as well have been living in Cleveland. MADem Oct 2014 #169

I worked with lots and lots of Saudis - I knew many, many gay people who lived downtown Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #171

See post 173. MADem Oct 2014 #175

You most have been working amidst an elite� people wealthy enough to live in a protected bubble. KittyWampus Oct 2014 #27

My first job was in a remote village in the mountains in a tribal region - I did live on a western Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #34

forget it. it's a lost cause here on DU. There is a very loud although I have to wonder just how liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #29

Yep - many "open-minded" liberals here who think it is cool DrDan Oct 2014 #154

Jeeze, what's next - "Saudi Arabia is a great vacation hot-spot for Jews"? bullwinkle428 Oct 2014 #30

no, actually I an glad I don't live there anymore. I am only trying to explain what it was like Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #32

What is was like for gay men -- It's only hellish for HALF of the human race, then. whathehell Oct 2014 #42

the society is very oppressive toward women. It is not possible for any rational person to deny that Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #47

That seems consistent with things I have read over the years Lurks Often Oct 2014 #33

That is a fair statement Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #36

I think you mean for American and foreign MEN.. whathehell Oct 2014 #43

I would say most western women who worked there enjoyed theit time there. But westerners in general Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #48

I hope you can understand this. For me, the way I was raised, it is not good to enjoy being treated Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #54

ANY western person living, working or even vacationing in ANY developing country is almost certainly Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #58

Of course. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #69

I guess I must have missed the part where I claimed that Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #70

They still can't go anywhere without hijab/chador or a male guardian--so it's only "OK" on the MADem Oct 2014 #100

Many professionals, women in particular, simply won't go there... whathehell Oct 2014 #126

I'm not saying that the Middle East is some enlightened land Lurks Often Oct 2014 #53

You say you "doubt" foreign women face any significant challenges, which whathehell Oct 2014 #127

Did you bother to read the link? Lurks Often Oct 2014 #137

No, I was mistakenly responding to another post -- It happens. whathehell Oct 2014 #138

I read the OP Lurks Often Oct 2014 #150

Really? whathehell Oct 2014 #168

Aren't you funny with your poor reading skills Lurks Often Oct 2014 #183

Aren't you pathetic with your poor writing skills whathehell Oct 2014 #189

Lol, you're the one that started this sub thread with poor manners Lurks Often Oct 2014 #196

Responding to the wrong person is "poor manners", LOL? whathehell Oct 2014 #199

It sounds like you're doing much better than the average woman there. whathehell Oct 2014 #38

no doubt about that - the society is very opressive toward woman Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #39

Fabulous.. whathehell Oct 2014 #40

I thought and still think it was terrible. Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #41

We're gilding the lily here. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #44

there's little if any acceptance of people openly identifying themselves as gay in the Islamic world Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #45

It's a tradition in Saudi Arabia for men to hold hands. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #51

"whenever a man and woman are alone in a room the third person is Satan." That is just... nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #141

It is the same way here. The fundamental religionists preach against and seek to punish gay people Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #56

I would have to agree with that.. whathehell Oct 2014 #132

I can't help but wonder how much that had to do with you being a foreigner eallen Oct 2014 #49

well - I never met a Saudi who self-identified as gay Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #52

Yeah. Change comes late even for the U.S. Baitball Blogger Oct 2014 #55

Is it still true SA does not allow Churche or other house of worship built there? hrmjustin Oct 2014 #57

yes, however there are two churches on the Aramco compound in Khobar and of course there are chapels Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #59

So there is no religious freedom. hrmjustin Oct 2014 #66

as far as Saudi Arabia is concerned - that would pretty much be the case Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #67

And the UAE? hrmjustin Oct 2014 #94

there are churches in the UAE and Hindu temples too. It is not a western democracy but it is a lot Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #97

That is good to hear. hrmjustin Oct 2014 #98

I worked in Saudi Arabia for 11 years fxstc Oct 2014 #61

Maybe what you are describing is how gay folks used to be treated in the USA DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #62

The definition of homosexuality may be different CJCRANE Oct 2014 #75

In all of your time in Suadi Arabia.... NCTraveler Oct 2014 #74

I met one UAE national who did Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #77

Your replies aren't matching the tone of your op in any way. NCTraveler Oct 2014 #82

the premise of my OP is that I was openly gay in Saudi Arabia and it was well known by everyone I Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #89

Yes, I think you have fully argued against the premise of your op with your own replies. NCTraveler Oct 2014 #107

no I worked in a hospital along side local people all the time Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #108

You were an infidel; had you been a practicing Muslim you would have had trouble. BIG trouble. MADem Oct 2014 #173

I knew only a few gay Muslims - but they were married with children - they never had any problems Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #176

I think your commentary and "No problem, dude" attitude is disturbing in the extreme. MADem Oct 2014 #177

I guess if I just made up a bunch of lies It would be less disturbing - but I am reporting what I Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #178

The one suffering from cognitive dissonance is YOU. MADem Oct 2014 #179

I'm simply reporting what I saw,lived and experienced for 25 years- living and working closely with Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #180

You're simply turning a blind eye to persecution and discrimination because it didn't touch YOU. MADem Oct 2014 #181

It didn't touch anyone else I knew either except when I was working the remote tribal region of Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #185

So, those people at Amnesty International are a buncha liars? Those people pleading for asylum MADem Oct 2014 #191

I don't understand the contradiction either - Lots and lots of openly gay foreign workers in a place Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #192

Post removed Post removed Oct 2014 #193

This is probably a bit TL/DR, but I hope you'll try to wade through it and I hope I am expressing MADem Oct 2014 #197

I was certainly treated with more deferance and respect when I worked in the Middle East than when Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #198

Had you been "one of them," though, that deference and respect would have given way to MADem Oct 2014 #202

I think the article is a bit more nuanced than what you are describing Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #204

It's plausible deniability--as someone upthread averred, it's "Republican Gay"--but with the added MADem Oct 2014 #205

" And I do not buy that all this anti-Muslim hate..." DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #194

I agree Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #195

Alert! Alert! We've got a "tone" post! valerief Oct 2014 #109

It was the polite way of saying something else. lol. nt. NCTraveler Oct 2014 #110

You must be a "very serious person." valerief Oct 2014 #111

I wrote that up thread. The OP stipulates being GLTB is no biggie. It's all cool riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #116

I didn't say that and you know I didn't say that. I am writing about my personal experience Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #122

Your OP is a "contradiction" of pretty much every other post you've made in the thread riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #123

well I knew lots and lots of very openly gay western people who worked in the middle east Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #124

What would happen if a Saudi man or woman identified as gay... DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #76

I have to admit that I can't really imagine that happening. Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #79

Isn't that the acid test, bro? DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #85

it is not a liberal democracy - that's for sure. Of course I could not have imagined anyone Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #92

But you could now. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #93

well that's true. Both societies advanced a lot since the 1960's - considering where they were at in Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #95

But people did so identify and advocate, not just in the 60's but in previous decades.... Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #164

Off to the car park, and off with their head! MADem Oct 2014 #84

UAE is very different from Saudi Arabia, though. mainer Oct 2014 #80

oh yeah - Culturally they come from the same sort of tribal heritage Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #86

My impression is that CJCRANE Oct 2014 #88

I also don't buy the rationale, "they have to do gay sex because of segregation closeupready Oct 2014 #90

you're probably right about that. In the Philippines where there is a fair amount of mixing between Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #91

They are closeted. Some call it being on the DL, the down low. Denial is the opposite of acceptance. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #99

you do understand that in many non-western societies the vast majority of males have had numerous Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #149

Then they are all bisexual hypocrites, punishing others for the very thing they do, according to you Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #161

Not just Islamic countries - you will find around th world many places where most young men have Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #163

Interestingly, in the global survey they did last year, people in the Philippines expressed higher nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #142

Your mileage may vary. badtoworse Oct 2014 #96

I'm glad you were treated well, BUT eissa Oct 2014 #101

I find this true in countries with majority religions that oppress women. Cleita Oct 2014 #114

False Equivalence Fail. whathehell Oct 2014 #131

You assumed I was talking about European countries. Cleita Oct 2014 #133

Yes, and I didn't know you were describing events of "more than 50 years ago" whathehell Oct 2014 #134

And the poor Swedish young ladies--they got the worst of it!!! MADem Oct 2014 #203

Extremely lucky if you were doing this openly... I lived for the last 12 years in the UAE and yes JCMach1 Oct 2014 #112

I was out in the sense that everybody that knew me and socialized with me knew I was gay Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #119

I was in Al Ain Abu Dhabi working at Tawam Hospital from August 1989 to November 1991 Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #151

All well and good, but I have watched the CID arrest numbers of people at establishments that cater JCMach1 Oct 2014 #182

But Doug has never seen that so... riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #184

and doesn't compute with the experience of the vast majority of Gay foreign people living and Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #186

Ah, The Reagan Years...hardly the "Age of Enlightenment" when it came to gay issues. MADem Oct 2014 #206

Do you think you would have found things as easy if you'd been a native? N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #115

if I had gotten married and had kids - then I could do pretty much what I wanted without a label Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #117

It's the Greco-Roman way that dates back to biblical times in the ME. Cleita Oct 2014 #121

Do as you are told and we won't turn you in. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #130

450 lashes? That is beyond barbaric. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #143

Barbaric indeed, and current news. The OP's claims seem lacking in context when he claims: Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #158

If nothing else, he doesn't seem to have put his own (very fortunate) experiences in enough context. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #170

my experience was the experience of the vast overwhelming majority of western gay people Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #174

I'm not saying it is gay friendly - I'm reporting the fact that I knew lots and lots of "screaming Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #188

I am a woman. Brigid Oct 2014 #135

Me either... whathehell Oct 2014 #139

What would happen if a gay person took the original post literally.. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #136

I would hope most people of any orientation are smarter than that. Regardless, I see your point. n/t nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #144

anywhere anyone moves - it is best to assess the situation for one's self before they do anything Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #145

Reading about Shrien Dewani, it's interesting in light of this thread closeupready Oct 2014 #165

my next obnoxiousdrunk Oct 2014 #166

Riyadh is the most boring, soulless city I have ever visited in my life Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #172

The challenge is gays in many M E nations have no protection by law or custom. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2014 #200

I agree - there is no real rule of law - everything is very arbitrary Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #201