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snooper2

(30,151 posts)
37. not really, people that really follow their holy books would be assholes
Fri Oct 10, 2014, 02:30 PM
Oct 2014

Both books are full of evil shit and if one REALLY FOLLOWED THEIR FUCKING HOLY BOOK they would be, like I said, an asshole-


Cruelty in the New Testament
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.--Is.66:24

Whenever we read ... the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize humankind. And, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel. -- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Matthew


Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20 , Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." 15:13

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41

"Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44

In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:1-14

The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes (6-7). And that's just "the beginning of sorrows" (8). Next believers will be hated and killed by unbelievers (9), believers will hate and betray each other (10), false prophets will fool people (11), iniquity will abound and love wax cold (12). But hey, if you make through all that, you'll be saved (13).
Only one more thing will happen before the end comes: the gospel will be preached throughout the world (14). Well, that and the abomination of desolations will stand in the holy place (15), many false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders (24), the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall (29), the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, everyone on earth will mourn, and then, finally, the great and powerful son of Man will come in all his glory (30).

Oh, and all these things will happen within the lifespan of Jesus' contemporaries (34).

Or maybe not. Jesus was talking about things he knew nothing about (36). (See Mark 13:32.) 24:3-51


Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

The parable of the cruel and unjust master
The kingdom of heaven is like a rich man who distributed his wealth to his servants while he traveled. He gave five talents (a talent was a unit of money, worth about 20 years of a worker's wages) to one servant, two to another, and one to a third. When he returned, the servant with five talents had made five more, the servant with two made two more, but the servant with one talent only had the talent his master entrusted to him. The master rewarded the servants that invested his money (without his permission -- what would have happened if the stock market went down during their master's travels?) and took the talent from the single-talent servant and gave it to the one with ten talents. "For unto every one that hath shall be given .. but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." Then the cruel and unjust master cast the servant who carefully protected his master's talent into the "outer darkness: [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:14-30

The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

Jesus judges the nations. 25:31-46

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46
Mark


Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20 , Dt 21:18-21) 7 -10

Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and gives the vineyard to others. 12:1-9

Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 14:22-24

Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16 Luke


Zechariah asks the angel Gabriel how his wife Elizabeth could become pregnant, since she is "stricken with years." Gabriel makes him "dumb" just for asking. 1:20

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3

John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. 8:27-37

Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5

Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." 13:3, 5

According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31

Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27

Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32

In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27

Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 22:19-20
John


Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21. (God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of food and water. Then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites.) 3:14

"God so loved the world, that he gave his His only begotten Son."
As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36

The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36

Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6

Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." (They are called Protestants nowadays.) 6:53-66
Acts


Peter claims that Dt 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23

Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land. 5:1-10

Peter has a dream in which God show him "wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls." The voice (God's?) says, "Rise, Peter: kill and eat." 10:10-13

Peter describes the vision that he had in the last chapter (10:10-13). All kinds of beasts, creeping things, and fowls drop down from the sky in a big sheet, and a voice (God's, Satan's?) tells him to "Arise, Peter; slay and eat." 11:5-10

The "angel of the Lord" killed Herod by having him "eaten of worms" because "he gave not God the glory." 12:23

David was "a man after [God's] own heart." 13:22

The author of Acts talks about the "sure mercies of David." But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam 12:31 and 1 Chr 20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities. 13:34

Paul and the Holy Ghost conspire together to make Elymas (the sorcerer) blind. 13:8-11
Romans


Homosexuals (those "without natural affection&quot and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them&quot are "worthy of death" - - along with gossips, boasters, and disobedient children. 1:31-32

The guilty are "justified" and "saved from wrath" by the blood of an innocent victim. 5

God punishes everyone for someone else's sin; then he saves them by killing an innocent victim. 5:12

"If ... we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son", then God is truly a monster. 5:10 1 Corinthians


If you defile the temple of God, God will destroy you. 3:17

Paul claims that God killed 23,000 in a plague for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab 10:8

If you tempt Christ (How could you tempt Christ?), you'll will die from snake bites. 10

If you murmur, you'll be destroyed by the destroyer (God). 10:10
2 Corinthians


The terror of the Lord 5:11
Galatians


If anyone dares to disagree with Paul on religious matters, "let him be accursed." 1:8-9
Ephesians


We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11

God had his son murdered to keep himself from hurting others for things they didn't do. 1

The bloody death of Jesus smelled good to God. 5:2

Those who refuse to obey will face the wrath of God. 5:6
Philippians

Colossians


God bought us with someone else's blood. 1:14

God makes peace through blood. 1:19-20
1 Thessalonians


God is planning a messy, mass murder in "the wrath to come" and only Jesus can save you from it. 1:10

Christians shouldn't mourn the death of their fellow believers. They'll be OK and you'll see them later in heaven. The people you should mourn are dead nonbelievers. They have no hope (because they're going to hell). 4:13
2 Thessalonians


Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 1 -9

Jesus will "consume" the wicked "with the spirit of his mouth." 2:8

God will cause us to believe lies so that he can damn our souls to hell. 2:11-12
1 Timothy

2 Timothy

Titus

Philemon

Hebrews


"That which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."
Apostates will burn in hell with the other non-believers. 6:8

"Melchisedec ... met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him."
God showed his approval of "the slaughter of the kings" with Melchisedec's blessing of Abraham. (Genesis 14:17-18) 7:1

God will not forgive anyone unless something is killed for him in a bloody manner. 9:13-22

"A certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."
God will soon destroy non-believers in a fiery hell. 10:27

Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29

"Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord." 10:30

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." 10:31

"Abraham ... offered up Isaac ... his only begotten son." (And this was a good thing? How fucked up is that?) 11:17

The Israelites kept the passover and sprinkled blood on doorposts so that God wouldn't kill their firstborn children (like he did the Egyptians in Exodus 12:29). 11:28

God saved Rahab because she believed. (He killed all the non-believers in Jericho.) 11:31

"Time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets."
The heroes of faith: Gideon, Samson, Jephthah, David, and Samuel. It would be hard to find a more monstrous group than these guys. 11:32

"Others were tortured ... that they might obtain a better resurrection." 11:35

God ordered animals to be "stoned, or thrust through with a dart" if they "so much as ... touch the mountain." 12:20

"Ye are come ... to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel." 12:22-24 James


James says Abraham was justified by works (for being willing to kill his son for God); Paul (Romans 4:2-3) says he was justified by faith (for believing that God would order him to do such an evil act). 2:21
1 Peter


We are all, according to Peter, predestined to be saved or damned. We have no say in the matter. It was all determined by "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."1:2

"The precious blood of Christ ... was foreordained before the foundation of the world."
God planned to kill Jesus from the get-go. 1:19-20

God drowned everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. 3:20
2 Peter


God drowned everyone else on earth except for Noah and his family. 2:5, 3:6

"Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes" 2:6

God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3

When Jesus returns, he'll burn up the whole earth and everything on it. 3:10
1 John


Christians are washed in the blood of Jesus. 1
2 John
3 John






Now lets take a look at the lovely Quran
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.



Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.



Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Quran (4 4) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



Quran (4 6) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Quran (4 5) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).



Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?



Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.



Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."



Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."



Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."



Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had the power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.



Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.



Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.



Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.




Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).




Quran (9 3) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that unbelievers are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.



Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."




Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme." How does the Quran define a true believer?



Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).



Quran (18:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)



Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter." This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered "merciless" and "horrible murder" in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to "fight in the way of Allah" (3:167) and hence don't act as Muslims should), those with "diseased hearts" (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and "alarmists" or "agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad's biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today's terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah's eternal word to Muslim generations.



Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners," Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle. The verse goes on to say the only reason Allah doesn't do the dirty work himself is in order to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. "But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."



Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand&quot for Allah is with you,"



Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted? This verse also says that those who do not fight will suffer torment in hell.



Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status. Also the word used for 'hard' or 'ruthless' in this verse shares the same root as the word translated as 'painful' or severe' in verse 16.



Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! The verse explicitly refers to "battle array" meaning that it is speaking of physical conflict. This is followed by (61 ): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist." (See next verse, below). Infidels who resist Islamic rule are to be fought.



Quran (61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of 'Adn - Eternity ['Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success." This verse refers to physical battle in order to make Islam victorious over other religions (see above). It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Quran (66 ) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.




From the Hadith:



Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."



Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.



Bukhari (52:65) - The Prophet said, 'He who fights that Allah's Word, Islam, should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause. Muhammad's words are the basis for offensive Jihad - spreading Islam by force. This is how it was understood by his companions, and by the terrorists of today.



Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'



Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."



Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."



Bukhari (52 3) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords'."



Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."



Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."



Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"



Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.'"



Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."



Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."



Bukhari 1:35 "The person who participates in (Holy Battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty ( if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise ( if he is killed)."



Tabari 7 7 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.



Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.



Tabari 17:187 "'By God, our religion (din) from which we have departed is better and more correct than that which these people follow. Their religion does not stop them from shedding blood, terrifying the roads, and seizing properties.' And they returned to their former religion." The words of a group of Christians who had converted to Islam, but realized their error after being shocked by the violence and looting committed in the name of Allah. The price of their decision to return to a religion of peace was that the men were beheaded and the woman and children enslaved by the caliph Ali.



Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 484: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 990: - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern creation, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.



Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.



Saifur Rahman, The Sealed Nectar p.227-228 - "Embrace Islam... If you two accept Islam, you will remain in command of your country; but if your refuse my Call, you’ve got to remember that all of your possessions are perishable. My horsemen will appropriate your land, and my Prophethood will assume preponderance over your kingship." One of several letters from Muhammad to rulers of other countries. The significance is that the recipients were not making war or threatening Muslims. Their subsequent defeat and subjugation by Muhammad's armies was justified merely on the basis of their unbelief.


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Islamophoia is not a liberal value [View all] Prophet 451 Oct 2014 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Oct 2014 #1
*bitter cynical chuckle* Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #2
I largely agree with you- not about the ignore list. I don't do ignore lists cali Oct 2014 #3
No, you seem able to have a constructive dialogue Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #5
well, I've always referred to that concept as "confirmation bias" cali Oct 2014 #22
I'm aware of confirmation bias Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #29
As I said, I think it's far more complex that simply "the law stops them" cali Oct 2014 #58
I think we're just going to have to disagree on the law part Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #67
That's a well-reasoned post. Blue_In_AK Oct 2014 #78
Thank you, sir n/t Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #92
Ma'am. :) Blue_In_AK Oct 2014 #97
Sorry. Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #99
Such a joke GummyBearz Oct 2014 #91
I listed modern Christian terrorists in my OP Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #101
So? GummyBearz Oct 2014 #119
"Christian terrorists seem to be a little nicer than islamic state terrorists" Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #122
I think you're missing how both fundamentalisms are intertwined. CJCRANE Oct 2014 #6
How could I be missing it when cali Oct 2014 #19
Where have we seen an increase in Islamic fundamentalism? CJCRANE Oct 2014 #27
Really ? Rhinodawg Oct 2014 #59
really? Link it. cali Oct 2014 #61
On brief look .... Rhinodawg Oct 2014 #64
Tell us did you watch Face the Nation on Sunday? azurnoir Oct 2014 #103
that isn't remotely like anything I've ever said, dear. cali Oct 2014 #137
it's the same logic as "we're not against Black people, just their massive criminal element" MisterP Oct 2014 #4
Pretty much n/t Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #7
"I don't hate gay people, I hate homosexuality." Another fun one from this mindset Scootaloo Oct 2014 #8
And we’re even getting a lot of that in this thread. “I’m not saying [certain group] is bad, I’m Chathamization Oct 2014 #112
No, it isn't. RedCappedBandit Oct 2014 #114
Do you think there is a difference between ZombieHorde Oct 2014 #154
Problem is they actually follow their holy book snooper2 Oct 2014 #9
I listed modern Christian terrorists in my OP Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #12
percentages matter snooper2 Oct 2014 #16
Only when you're trying to justify a prejudice Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #18
So would you, then. Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #28
this is such a tired and simplistic line. cali Oct 2014 #25
I would call equating a heavily armed ruthless group that has actually Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #34
not really, people that really follow their holy books would be assholes snooper2 Oct 2014 #37
Equal opportunity disdain is fine Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #43
I know, cut and paste adds some comedic value :) snooper2 Oct 2014 #49
You say "they" like you mean all. Maybe you mean some follow their holy book. Percentages are import rhett o rick Oct 2014 #33
See post 37 for clarification snooper2 Oct 2014 #39
Post 37 provides zip. You said that the "Problem is they actually follow their holy book" rhett o rick Oct 2014 #53
The phelps actually follow their holy book snooper2 Oct 2014 #57
Your ignore list contains much more than people...it includes entire concepts. Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #10
In the West, muslims are a MINORITY, and liberals traditionally protect closeupready Oct 2014 #11
Nnnnnno. Don't agree with you there, I'm afraid. sibelian Oct 2014 #21
No, it's not mainly because "prejudice is illogical". Liberals have traditionally relied on cali Oct 2014 #30
That moral basis RELIES on the fact that prejudice is illogical. sibelian Oct 2014 #56
Know your history. The idea of civil rights is itself a liberal idea. closeupready Oct 2014 #41
Certainly there is always propensity for the mainstream to dominate sibelian Oct 2014 #62
That'd be cool if liberals controlled the govment. We are currently ignoring major portions of the rhett o rick Oct 2014 #38
As a liberal, one should do what one can. Change starts with YOU. closeupready Oct 2014 #45
I like your avatar but I'll never look at meatballs the same. rhett o rick Oct 2014 #69
Then think of them as Rocky Mountain Oysters! closeupready Oct 2014 #79
You're not helping. nm rhett o rick Oct 2014 #130
I don't think the point is that they are different. sibelian Oct 2014 #13
Not to some Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #14
Are you allowed to link links? sibelian Oct 2014 #70
I'm honestly not sure Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #75
Give or take a hundred massacred women and children Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #15
Oh, never mind all that. sibelian Oct 2014 #24
Blowing folks to bits is so much more civilized. GeorgeGist Oct 2014 #106
Ooooga booga Rhinodawg Oct 2014 #132
Bad guys trying to bomb bad guys and missing. sibelian Oct 2014 #156
Adding "phobia" to the end of the word Islam does not make it immune from analysis or criticism. Throd Oct 2014 #17
Homophobes say exactly the same n/t Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #20
Nice try. Throd Oct 2014 #23
Ah, you're on the "Islam is different because it just is" train Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #26
No I'm not. Throd Oct 2014 #32
Probably because he/she accidentally watched 3 seconds of the 700 Club Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #48
Islam *is* different from homosexuality muriel_volestrangler Oct 2014 #150
Islam is a set of beliefs. Race and sexual orientation are a matter of nature. PeaceNikki Oct 2014 #151
I reserve the right to cali Oct 2014 #36
Like this poster did... Rhinodawg Oct 2014 #74
I understand that Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #120
yeah, but when I criticize aspects of a given religion, I do not feel compelled cali Oct 2014 #135
There, we disagree Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #141
That sounds tedious. Throd Oct 2014 #145
Religion is a choice, sexual orientation not. nt alp227 Oct 2014 #63
. sibelian Oct 2014 #73
Two things Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #123
Religion is a choice Marrah_G Oct 2014 #104
Fundy Christians don't think so Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #121
The Problem Hari Seldon Oct 2014 #31
Greatest quote ever, thank you. get the red out Oct 2014 #46
I couldn't agree more that getting off fossil fuels would solve a ton of our problems. Marr Oct 2014 #51
Well said. nm rhett o rick Oct 2014 #68
That's a bit simplistic muriel_volestrangler Oct 2014 #152
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2014 #35
We don't demean Christians on the basis of being Christian Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #40
What a guy. Happy to "take a shot" at deniers of rights. Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #44
I guess you weren't on DU earlier in the year. Lobo27 Oct 2014 #89
If I was around, I missed it Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #95
Neither is defending oppressive authoritarians. Marr Oct 2014 #42
I wish a few psychologists would study why it's so hard for the Left to say what you said. Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #47
Definitely. I think I understand where they're coming from, but still. Marr Oct 2014 #66
It always befuddles me how the Left, which prides itself on nuanced thought Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #71
George Bush get the red out Oct 2014 #84
There was radical Islam before Bush. nt Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #86
Most definitely! get the red out Oct 2014 #87
I can see that. nt Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #88
I'm definitely one of his ignorees leftynyc Oct 2014 #76
Welcome to the club. Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #81
I'll wear it as a badge of honor leftynyc Oct 2014 #83
I think what ends up happening is this. Lobo27 Oct 2014 #90
The easier access to power is an accident of history Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #50
Yes, our entire government and our election process is an accident of history. Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #55
I don't disagree with you-- but here we are. Marr Oct 2014 #60
What to do? Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #72
Certainly. Marr Oct 2014 #138
Yes, forgot about that Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #140
I think they are all equally disgusting Skittles Oct 2014 #52
Equal opportunity disdain is fair n/t Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #54
K&R liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #65
Man is the only animal to have found the One True God....several of them. Mark Twain Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #77
K&R. YoungDemCA Oct 2014 #80
Post removed Post removed Oct 2014 #82
Glad you would be in favor of disenfranchising most of America's population... YoungDemCA Oct 2014 #94
Well, you know....Prop 8 ProudToBeBlueInRhody Oct 2014 #117
Exactly The Green Manalishi Oct 2014 #127
Two things Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #96
I am glad you have something that works for you, be it meds or faith. The Green Manalishi Oct 2014 #125
One could say the same of all gun owners Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #129
that is a different argument, and a good point. The Green Manalishi Oct 2014 #136
" insane, vile, hateful and hurtful paradigm" Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #139
Atheism isn't taken seriously because people with invisible sky friends need cognitive dissonance The Green Manalishi Oct 2014 #142
Glad to know I have company n/t Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #146
Nah, just take away the tax exempt status. ProudToBeBlueInRhody Oct 2014 #107
Yes, I'd go for that Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #109
The word fundamentalism does not sadoldgirl Oct 2014 #85
Hmm, yes. That's a good distinction Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #98
Pardon me, but I went to Quaker schools and Quaker meeting when I was younger Crunchy Frog Oct 2014 #155
If I'm wrong, I welcome correction Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #157
Not any Quakers that I've ever met, and I've met LOTS. Crunchy Frog Oct 2014 #161
How quickly things like Sabra and Shatila, the Bosnia Genocide, the LRA, the IRA, etc. get forgotten Chathamization Oct 2014 #93
Eloquently put Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #113
Most Americans never even HEARD the word "Muslim" prior to 9/11... Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2014 #100
"Otherising" Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #116
Religion has done that from the beginning.... Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2014 #144
Not all religions Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #158
No kidding. Presbyterian was good at helping the poor and Quaker is still anti-war. Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2014 #164
Let's cut the crap. MicaelS Oct 2014 #102
so what conclusion should we be drawing from your post? azurnoir Oct 2014 #105
That I think the ME / Islamic World is one really fucked up place. MicaelS Oct 2014 #111
You say "cut the crap" but your post is full of it Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #108
Equality for women and gays is a liberal value OKNancy Oct 2014 #110
Something of a generalisation Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #115
I think it's problematic saying that Western culture is better than African culture or Asian culture Chathamization Oct 2014 #149
Islam, Judaism and Christianity ... All peas in the same pod Trajan Oct 2014 #118
~No, equal disdain is fine Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #126
Islamaphobia is a Christian Dominionist trapping. Watch your step. The Dominionists are Nazis. blkmusclmachine Oct 2014 #124
We have 2000 years of Christian history to back up the fact that Christians can be just as violent. hrmjustin Oct 2014 #128
That's something I agree with entirely Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #131
People say many things, but it is only their actions others can use to define them. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #133
That's not what I said Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #134
No, it is what I said. I speak for myself. No one is tilting at you. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #143
I missed Feral Child Oct 2014 #147
No, equal disdain is fair Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #159
Your point is accurate. Feral Child Oct 2014 #167
I am firmly against any religion LostOne4Ever Oct 2014 #148
Define "persecute" Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #160
I would define it as LostOne4Ever Oct 2014 #168
What Ben Affleck missed in the Islamophobia debate PeaceNikki Oct 2014 #153
This is so interesting you should post it separately. Rhinodawg Oct 2014 #165
I view Muslims in the same way I view Christians. Neoma Oct 2014 #162
That's fair Prophet 451 Oct 2014 #163
The prevelance of repulsively right-wing opinions in Islam is currently unique. Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #166
Any religion like Islam or similar is NOT compatible with liberalism Lee-Lee Oct 2014 #169
Authoritarianism is ALWAYS bad, whether it is religious or otherwise. alarimer Oct 2014 #170
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