General Discussion

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)

104. Folks, this isn't binary.

Tue Oct 14, 2014, 12:14 PM

Oct 2014

It is possible, likely, even, that given what we *don't* know about ebola, that the CDC protocols are inadequate and should be enhanced. That's a real possibility, for medical and public health minds to consider and act on.

It is equally possible that one or more health care professionals can and will make mistakes with their PPE during this outbreak. We've seen it several times in both western and the developing world. Not everyone does it perfectly every time, no matter what. The stressors on health care professionals are myriad--including being terrified of a deadly disease.

I doubt that health care professionals deliberately cut corners, especially where their personal safety is concerned. But, when you look at chronic understaffing and other problems plaguing a for profit health care system (unique in the developed world), it's easy to appreciate how a simple misstep, combined with possibly inadequate protocols, can result in disaster, disease, and death.

By all means expand and improve the protocols if that is what is required. But the protocols are meaningless if health care professionals are unable to put them into full effect due to lack of training, overwork, or other factors.

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If the CDC's Ebola guidance and protocols for healthcare workers are [View all] kestrel91316 Oct 2014 OP

Thanks for saying this. enlightenment Oct 2014 #1

The government-hating here is on par with what you see on FR from teabaggers. kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #5

CDC says they are rethinking their protocols. LisaL Oct 2014 #14

Thank you, and they are Warpy Oct 2014 #36

I have been on private physician boards discussing this today Mojorabbit Oct 2014 #91

One can look what doctors without borders wear, and what in CDC guidelines, to see LisaL Oct 2014 #101

Oh you should see when there's an animal health issue. Then they all attack me. kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #12

I'm not sure what's going on with all this. enlightenment Oct 2014 #25

What you seem to be missing boston bean Oct 2014 #2

Blaming CDC for what is most likely an accidental oops by a nurse is repugnant. kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #3

You so sure about that, eh? boston bean Oct 2014 #6

Well if they are the kind of people who have to be continually harangued about washing their kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #8

Post removed Post removed Oct 2014 #20

Kestrel runs a veterinary hospital Aerows Oct 2014 #23

But can she count? LisaL Oct 2014 #24

I will refrain from Aerows Oct 2014 #26

Don't you think she knows full well that it's way premature to claim nobody else got infected? LisaL Oct 2014 #30

I don't think her OP Aerows Oct 2014 #31

I called no one an idiot or shit stirrer boston bean Oct 2014 #27

The disease is terrifying Warpy Oct 2014 #38

Thank you. I was getting pissed of at some comments. nt Mojorabbit Oct 2014 #95

She is also not a nurse who has worked in a hospital with a severely ill ebola patient. nt Mojorabbit Oct 2014 #94

I'm so beffuddled by the way this has been handled Aerows Oct 2014 #22

There is a difference between making a mistake, touching your nose, and having to be constantly uppityperson Oct 2014 #82

I think part of the problem is that there is a difference between knowing proper procedure and hedgehog Oct 2014 #118

I am going to take issue with "accidental oops by the nurse" etherealtruth Oct 2014 #19

I think it comes down to exactly what you are saying Aerows Oct 2014 #51

And that ALSO is not the CDC's fault. It could very well be profiteering hospital bean kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #67

No, not all etherealtruth Oct 2014 #98

I am wondering the same thing - it's not possible to follow the CDC protocols hedgehog Oct 2014 #108

If it is any of those things, why do we only have the ONE nurse with Ebola???? kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #4

Take it up with Frieden. boston bean Oct 2014 #7

He knows nurses don't know hygiene. He's just being realistic. kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #9

Wow. boston bean Oct 2014 #18

Well, if the nurses don't know hygiene, how do you expect them to take care of Ebola patient? LisaL Oct 2014 #21

Nurses don't know hygiene? Not "a nurse made an error" but "nurses don't know hygiene"? uppityperson Oct 2014 #83

Have you ever been to nursing school? Mojorabbit Oct 2014 #96

Thank you for calling her on that, on complete agreement with you. uppityperson Oct 2014 #100

Probably just as well that southlandshari no longer frequents DU. KamaAina Oct 2014 #116

Are you kidding me? Dorian Gray Oct 2014 #123

Only five days since Mr. Duncan died. LisaL Oct 2014 #11

Here is a Hello? Aerows Oct 2014 #28

Don't count your chickens before they hatched. LisaL Oct 2014 #10

I was watching AC360 and the statement was raised that the reason the CDC recommendation is LiberalArkie Oct 2014 #13

I saw it.Dr. Gupta tried to follow the protocol using chocolate syrup to see if he got contaminated. LisaL Oct 2014 #16

Well, you can't possibly cost the hospital CEO money Aerows Oct 2014 #17

Exactly. Somebody would have Frieden's head if he dared to issue guidelines that cut kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #69

Here are the 2 preferred outfits, I would not wear the one on the right LiberalArkie Oct 2014 #29

Even the one on the left appears to be less than what doctors without borders wear. LisaL Oct 2014 #37

Excellent observation. Aerows Oct 2014 #15

Thank you for saying this SickOfTheOnePct Oct 2014 #32

You can't make this conclusions on the basis that one person didn't get infected LisaL Oct 2014 #39

Totally different situations SickOfTheOnePct Oct 2014 #43

OMG. LisaL Oct 2014 #45

Tell it to the international aid agencies that are teaching her methods SickOfTheOnePct Oct 2014 #47

Because these countries have no room in the hospitals LisaL Oct 2014 #48

Why won't you answer the question I asked? SickOfTheOnePct Oct 2014 #50

Why don't you answer this: LisaL Oct 2014 #52

You first SickOfTheOnePct Oct 2014 #54

Can you answer my questions? LisaL Oct 2014 #55

Sorry, no pony for you SickOfTheOnePct Oct 2014 #58

I don't need a pony. LisaL Oct 2014 #59

The CDC has been blaming the nurse for "breaching" its protocols, pnwmom Oct 2014 #46

CDC has not blamed this nurse specifically. They do have strong reason to believe that SOMEBODY kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #71

Because incubation period hasn't passed yet? LisaL Oct 2014 #74

For the same reason that many medical mistakes happen only sometimes. pnwmom Oct 2014 #77

That probably is going to be the case. It still doesn't translate into "stupid Frieden" kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #79

Ebola transmission factor is R2 Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #33

Exactly n/t Aerows Oct 2014 #34

This message was self-deleted by its author Earth_First Oct 2014 #35

The hospital was not prepared to treat him gwheezie Oct 2014 #40

You can talke a look at the photos from the hospitals that are biosafety level 4 and see that LisaL Oct 2014 #44

Clearly there is a difference gwheezie Oct 2014 #70

So do you blame CDC for your hospital's lack of preparedness, or do you blame kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #72

Hospital admin gwheezie Oct 2014 #89

asymptomatic perhaps? ecstatic Oct 2014 #41

Why are you taking everything to such an extreme? There's a difference between "horribly flawed" pnwmom Oct 2014 #42

Kestrel is just stating the bland and solid truth. Aerows Oct 2014 #49

What she says is nowhere near the truth. LisaL Oct 2014 #53

I don't have the medical knowledge Aerows Oct 2014 #56

When she is asking where are the other medical care workers who worked Mr. Duncan, LisaL Oct 2014 #57

I didn't realize that you didn't know Aerows Oct 2014 #60

What does that have to do with a price of tea in China? LisaL Oct 2014 #61

About the same that my answers to your questions Aerows Oct 2014 #62

How so? Who here is saying that the protocols are "horribly flawed" pnwmom Oct 2014 #68

Plenty of people all day have been screeching about horrible Frieden and the horrible guidelines. kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #80

I wasn't among them. You can see my posts here. I haven't posted anything stronger than what's here. pnwmom Oct 2014 #92

Folks, this isn't binary. lapislzi Oct 2014 #104

Agreed. Which is why I posted this: pnwmom Oct 2014 #105

Brilliant. lapislzi Oct 2014 #109

A very reasonable post! Someone questioned above why the CDC is reviewing its hedgehog Oct 2014 #110

Exactly, thank you. Iam glad to see others recognizing the multiple issues uppityperson Oct 2014 #128

Totally agree. These protocols work, when they are followed. morningfog Oct 2014 #63

CDC is rethinking the protocols. LisaL Oct 2014 #64

Yes, human inability to follow protocols may require new morningfog Oct 2014 #66

We never had an Ebola patient in a regular (not bisoafetly level 4) hospital before. LisaL Oct 2014 #73

Sorry you couldn't follow the post. But not surprised. morningfog Oct 2014 #76

The post made no sense. LisaL Oct 2014 #102

protocols and CDC KMOD Oct 2014 #65

I am beginning to think that we should do enhanced training at regional medical centers and send kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #75

Yes, kestrel91316 KMOD Oct 2014 #78

Deadly infectious diseases are nothing new. Isolation wards are nothing new. kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #81

hyperbole KMOD Oct 2014 #84

Um, in theory. But certainly not in practice. kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #87

Nah, not even close. kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #88

Very good idea. And that means you would be changing the CDC's current protocol pnwmom Oct 2014 #93

It wouldn't change the PPE protocol, which is what all the kerfuffle is about. kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #106

Your self righteousness is getting a little hard to stomach B2G Oct 2014 #107

The BLS 4 designation is used in research labs because there is hedgehog Oct 2014 #113

Actually, Ebola is far more contagious than tuberculosis, HIV, hepatitis, etc. pnwmom Oct 2014 #120

As it turns out, Tuberculosis currently has about the same Reproduction number as hedgehog Oct 2014 #122

But not the same number of viruses in a teaspoon. And people don't usually get TB pnwmom Oct 2014 #124

Since you ask - Ebola hedgehog Oct 2014 #125

But TB can be treated. My niece got it from someone in her elementary school class. pnwmom Oct 2014 #126

There are strains of tb that are resistant to all known antibiotics and that is very scary uppityperson Oct 2014 #129

I realize that. But there are no strains of Ebola that can be treated now, and it's far more pnwmom Oct 2014 #131

There you go again with that dichotomous thinking mixed up with broadbrush insults uppityperson Oct 2014 #85

I'm just citing the many peer-reviewed articles that show kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #86

Automatically assuming anything when dealing with something like ebola is a mistake Fumesucker Oct 2014 #90

Uh.Huh. Nurses don't know hygiene, "supposedly" medical professionals needing endless badgering tow uppityperson Oct 2014 #99

Hmmm. A vet finally dishes out what we've been on the receiving end of for well over a century as a kestrel91316 Oct 2014 #117

wtf. I know good & bad drs and vets uppityperson Oct 2014 #121

Checklists save lives but doctors don't want to admit that Recursion Oct 2014 #97

You need a medical degree to know to wash your hands? HockeyMom Oct 2014 #103

You obviously have never worked in a hospital. Avalux Oct 2014 #112

I won't blame the nurse, but sometimes mistakes are made. That's just they way it is. Avalux Oct 2014 #111

Another reasonable post! hedgehog Oct 2014 #115

Even if she wasn't a stringent hand washer, does anyone REALLY believe TexasMommaWithAHat Oct 2014 #114

I agree that the buddy system is a vital part of keeping everyone safe. hedgehog Oct 2014 #119

It only takes one to breach containment Man from Pickens Oct 2014 #127

Dr. Gupta - How can people in proper gear contract Ebola? LeftInTX Oct 2014 #130